Clipless cycling shoes/pedals for touring: Suggestions?

[Danneaux]

...have you tried Shoe Gu?

Excellent, superb suggestion, mickeg! I've tried it in the past with remarkable success on trainers, wellies, etc. but found it tended to peel off my Detto's nylon soles and didn't stay on the cleat at all. I surely wish I could find something that would stick to nylon (not nylon fabric, which the Shoe Goo sticks to wonderfully, but the solid material). It'd add years to the life of my Dettos!

All the best,

Dan. (...who adds, be sure to shoe Goo outside or the high-toluene content will subtract years from you as it adds to the life of your shoes)

[il padrone]

I have to admit to future-shock on several fronts here myself (says Rip van Dan, coming up for air):

Hey Dan, you are a stalwart. I don't know how you've got by, touring wearing Dettos. They are woeful shoes to try and walk any more than 20 metres in  

• These new SPD-compatible shoes and (some sort of) clipless-cleat pedals sure make for a lot of rotating mass and a heavy system.

This has never been any noticeable issue for me. You are not racing after all. You won't notice any great difference (and I too am a spinner)

• It appears I'm unlikely to get the sort of pedal bearing life I've come to take for granted with my SunTour Superbe Pros.

I still have the very first SPDs that I bought in 1992, doing service on my wiffe's bike. They did have bearings that are very easy to service, but have had a paucity of care.

• It appears it is going to be hard to get a good fit, so I will need to build-into the shoe; that is expected, but I have to get something fairly close.

You said you use Euro size 44 shoes, have a very narrow foot and have been happy with Dettos. Pretty much the same as me, so you should find the narrow fit of Shimano shoes to be very good. You'll probably even fit into the notoriously narrow Keen Commuter SPD sandals.

• It occurs to me I could go with a "racing" clipless system and pretty much duplicate what I have with the Dettos/clips, leaving the old shoes for the old pedals on the other bikes. The "racing-roadie" shoes fit much better than the MTB shoes, but I can't walk in them. I suspect they are more frangible in walking than even my old nylon-soled Dettos.

Don't do this. They are in no way suited to the demands of touring. The shoes are light but are poor for walking and the walking bumpers will wear out rapidly if you do more than walk to the cafe table.

[il padrone]

Maybe another option for you Dan - Quoc Pham leather shoes 

[Danneaux]

Hi All!

Okay, I have taken the plunge, thanks to the very pleasant gentleman clerk at the local Performance Bike chain store, who urged me to "just get the pedals along with the shoe, ride the daylights out of them, and if they don't work, bring 'em back with your receipt for a full refund within one year. You don't have to just try them on the carpet, give 'em a go".

Well, gee, um yeah...why not? Especially since I selected so carefully that I hope success will be assured.

First, shoes. I ended up getting a pair of Louis Garneau (for Performance) Terra Comp shoes: http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1131031_-1_400098__400098
Best fit so far of any I've tried, they have a much narrower heel than the Giro Carbides, and they even look a bit like my Dettos and remarkably road-shoeish. They feel a little warm with lots of "synthetic leather " (plastic) on the sides, but time will tell. I suppose I could always use a leather punch on them al la the factory treatment on Dettos (from an era when everything had holes drilled in it), and they are a perfect fit inside my Garneau neoprene rain booties. I will need to add a tongue pad and an insole, but I think these might work, and in a men's size, yay!

Then, pedals. I grabbed a pair of Shimano PDM-530s to try: http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1108401_-1_400264__400264

I also picked up a pair of the Shimano PDM-424s to try:
http://www.rei.com/product/752295/shimano-m424-spd-pedals

...and some multi-directional cleats to have on-hand in case the lateral-release ones aren't kind to my knees.

I still feel kinda evil for "trying" these, but I am at a loss to know how else to know what will work for me and I was actively encouraged to do so by the sales clerk who reminded me it was company policy. My plan is to carefully screw the pedals onto the bike, then try them sans cleats so I can see how they feel underfoot without the risk of leaving mars or scratches and so they'll still be nice in case I have to return them. Perhaps a little too-prudent, but I'd like to find out as non-destructively as possible.

So, here we are, Danneaux in the Modern Age. Scary, isn't it? Despite appearances and my track record of hanging onto old stuff, I adapt to the new very quickly and am always the first to master new stuff at Microsoft conferences and product intros. It'll be interesting. Hopefully, the next dispatch won't come courtesy of the local A&E department.

...I don't know how you've got by, touring wearing Dettos. They are woeful shoes to try and walk any more than 20 metres in

Pete, it was pushing the bike and trailer ~18 kilometers up 13%+ hills on logging roads recently that pushed me in this direction. What's left of these Dettos and the three unused pairs will still be in-use for the other bikes. "Stalwart" sounds better than some other phrases I thought of while pushing. Yeah, I like "stalwart"!  

Very good to get The Word from a fellow spinner that rotating weight won't seem too noticeable; a great help, Pete, as were all your comments in the last post, thanks! Yeah, the road shoes looked pitifully inadequate for any sort of off-bike use, though it took some doing to pry them out of my hands. The Louis Garneaus were a nice alternative, and look nearly identical to Garneau's road model, here: http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1130015_-1_400097__400097  They gots vents, but no lugs, Pete! Except for flooding out in puddle-water, I'm not sure how effective the vents would be at getting air into the shoe...they're under the insole.

Those Quoc Phams are the bee's knees, Pete, and I've nearly drooled into the keyboard looking at them. Trouble is, they're pricey, and I can't try 'em on except in Portland, if they have my size. And oh, did I mention price? About USD$231. Sad, so very, tragically sad; I wept big droppy tears of disappointment on seeing the price. These hit dead-center amidships at the very axis of Need and Want.

At any rate, I'm off, so we'll see what happens. Screw the pedals onto the cranks, attach the cleats in some sort of close approximation, and off I go for a Tour de Neighborhood to see what happens.

All the best,

Dan. (...who fervently hopes his next words won't be "Uh-oh!")

[Danneaux]

Hi All!

That went pretty well! It went great, all things considered.

Yes, my test run with the new shoes and pedals went very well. There were no near-falls, and getting out was a pretty natural heel-out motion, similar to the up-and-rearward involved with unshipping my Detto cleats from the quill pedals. Getting clicked-in was a little harder, and I found it best to do so at the bottom of the pedal stroke, where I could bring my weight to bear. As for pedal tension, I went with Shimano's default; it seemed okay for both click-in and release effort.

I just visualized how the click-and-release was "supposed" to work, and it did. Pretty much the way I taught myself to drive a manual transmission car at age 16 using a thick book on the floor and a coke bottle in hand to simulate clutch, brake, gas pedals and shifter. I went from that directly to a customer's manual-transmission car I was repairing at the time with nary a hitch.

There were no noticeable hot-spots underfoot when I pedaled or stood on the pedals, which was a relief. The shoes are all-synthetic (with that new-car smell!), and did have a couple hotspots caused by seam edge pressure at the top-inside of the shoe throat, but I massaged them by hand and that seemed to largely relieve the problem, which could be expected with any new shoe.

The amount of "float" far exceeds what I ever had with cleats on my quill pedals, so I'm okay there.

As for rotational mass and pedaling cadence, Pete (Il Padrone) was correct; any effect was largely unnoticeable. I hummed along at my customary 110-120RPM and hit 125RPM comfortably. I think I got the cleat placement really close on the first try, as my knees don't hurt After.

The shoes are unfortunately roomy in height, and I can see them stretch tall as I lift upward, though my heel stays socketed, which is really good. This first go-'round was with the standard insoles. I think another insole and perhaps a stick-on tongue pad will help fill some of the vertical space. These Garneaus are narrower than the Shimanos I tried, so that bodes well for getting a final fit.

Now I've got something to try, and if the shoes have any hope of working, I will keep them. Possibly the pedals as well, 'cos they were a reasonable USD$55 and would give me experience until they wore out. I'm not sure about either yet, but things are looking very promising. I think I still actually prefer my Dettos for my other bikes, but this is a great alternative for the Nomad. A bit like my preferred manual car transmission with clutch pedal vs a dual-clutch auto with paddle-shifters. Each has its place, each gives one a feeling of control and connection missing in a fully automatic transmission or riding just in street shoes with platform pedals. I'd miss being able to spin at speed, and the SPDs do let me pull up, kick forward, and pull back as I'm used to, just in a little different way.

Huh. How 'bout that? The Future has arrived an it ain't all bad. Whew.

All the best and many, many thanks!

Danneaux of the 21st Century

[Relayer]

Hi Dan

I think I can hear massive sighs of relief all around Thornworld!!

Getting clicked-in was a little harder, and I found it best to do so at the bottom of the pedal stroke, where I could bring my weight to bear.

I often have to do that too.

So glad that you made it Dan.   

Jim

[il padrone]

Shimano pedals click in with a heel-down position - easier at the bottom of the stroke, what you have found. Time pedals click in with a forward lunge - easier at the front of the stroke on the way down.

[jags]

wow that was a super deal that guy in the store gave you, hah i can just imagine  looking for a deal like that here laughed out of the store i reckon.
anyway Dan you will never return to  nailed cleats or toe straps again even though there not the shoes or pedals i recommended.

[Danneaux]

So glad that you made it Dan.

Thanks so much for the kind wishes, Jim...me too! I was a bit concerned about how well it might go. I practiced using one foot at a time in the yard before trying the streets and kept a weather eye open for trees to hug until I remembered if I just kept riding, stopping wouldn't be an issue! It did seem prudent to release at least one foot well prior to stopping, so I glided in with one foot down.

I did awaken with some persistent low-grade right-lateral pain in my right knee, so I think I need to move the right cleat back to put my foot forward. It has felt this way in the past if I'm too far back on the pedal. All should be fine, but I want to take it a bit easy to see how things go. I added a second insole and that helped with the excess roominess.

Yes, Pete, I noticed clicking-in is easier with the heel down on these SPDs; good point to remember, and that may help getting in at something other than bottom-of-stroke.

Jags, I was floored myself by the store clerk's offer, and hope people don't take unfair advantage of it to do "trash-and-return". I viewed it as a failsafe backup plan to a carefully planned and researched purchase. As it happens, I think it will all work out fine. The second pair of pedals is still in the box, so they can be returned unused, as these seem to be working well.

At first, I'd planned to go for some pedals with higher-end bearings, but costing it all out, it seems wisest to keep these until they start to go bad and then re-evaluate. They may last longer than expected, and in the meantime, I will have learned better what fits my needs.

I always try to factor in the cost of "education" when making a purchase. If something doesn't work or is a dismal failure, I will still be that much richer for the experience and what I've learned, so the sunk costs are "tuition" in the School of Life. You can't win 'em all, but with careful research, a person can usually come out on the plus side overall. My biggest problem in the larger consumer realm recently is manufacturers making false claims. A computer I purchased claimed to have all-superspeed USB 3.0 ports. In fact, it has one (the rest are 2.0). I bought it factory-direct at a very good price, and the manufacturer disputes my claim. I ended up paying about what I would have if it had only had one USB 3.0 port, so while not the bargain I had hoped for, it is still good value for the money, albeit a disappointment. The switch to clipless for the Nomad came out much better! The chance to return even after use sealed the deal along with the sale prices, making it a no-lose proposition to buy these from Performance. I'm guessing they come out ahead on overall, given their national-chain buying power and markup from volume purchasing. Interesting concept I hope will last. I was one of the company's early customers back in the days when it was a family doing a mail-order business from their basement; never could have imagined it could get this big or see a store open in my town, all the way across the country.

All the best,

Dan.

[jags]

OK Dan dead curious here but what do you mean by better bearings.
does cheap' ish pedals from say the shimano range use different grade bearings from there cheapest to dearest.anyway remember to unclip your stopping 

[Danneaux]

OK Dan dead curious here but what do you mean by better bearings.

I'm curious too, jags! Every single description I read of XT and XTR-level Shimano SPD pedals talks about "premium bearings" or "better bearings" than their lower offerings. The term "Sealed bearings" is tossed around a bit, and I have seen mention of "cartridge bearings". What is difficult to nail down are the specifics. After all, an o-ring or lip seal at the edge of the body would "seal" the lot to some degree.

It used to be (reaching back to the primordial ooze of the late 1970s/early 1980s) cup-and-cone bearings really did come in different grades and finishes and these were reflected in different price-points as you moved up the component ladder.

The ball bearings on premium pedals and components were all from the same lot, matched for size to within very fine tolerances. There were even taboos against mixing remainders from one packet with another if you wanted maximize bearing life, the idea being a mismatch between production batches would load the larger bearings unduly so the load wasn't evenly share among the lot. Remember, this was in the days when all the high-end hubs had oil clips and oil (yes, oil!) was used instead of grease for "record attempts", on the board tracks, and for fair-weather criteriums. Every little bit of reduced friction -- real or imagined -- was worth it in the drillium era.

bearing races were typically just ground on lower-end bearings, and ground so roughly as to have grooves that would catch a fingernail. They "wore in" to greater smoothness. On mid-grade bearings, they were ground to a higher standard and then tempered. On higher-end bearings, the cones and races were ground, tempered, then re-ground for greater precision (so long as the final grinding didn't go through the hardened surface to the softer parent metal beneath; that resulted in an early death at premium prices and happened to some Big Names on occasion) and looked mirror-like. In those days, Shimano's 600 line was a huge value, second to Dura-Ace in finish, but lasting perhaps 90% as long in practice for about half the price; a great choice for touring or racers on a budget. Adjusting the nicer components was so much easier, and the difference in bearing race feel was apparent when spinning the bearings by hand -- there was no catching or snatching or rough spots compared to the low-end stuff, where adjustments always seemed a compromise. This is one reason why I loved shielded ("sealed") cartridge bearings when they arrived on the scene. They were consistently high in quality and when they wore out, you just pressed in another pair and called it good. Here in America, lots of components were sold, but very little in the way of repair/replacement parts were available at most local shops. Hubs typically ran till the cones pitted, then you rebuilt your wheels with new hubs if you cared; if you didn't or coudn't afford it, you lived with the gritty feel so long as the bike kept running. You could pretty well figure most used bikes would have shot bearings. Campagnolo was the exception, and all the higher-end bike stores had lovely wooden suitcase-like boxes of spare Campy parts. The parts boxes were wonderful examples of the woodcrafter's art, with carefully mitered corners, brass hinges, and a nicely stained finish.

These days, a close look at SPD axles and bearing adjuster/retainer externals makes it appear the same internals might be used in all the lower-priced pedals. The outer finish and materials and design appear identical, varying only in pedal body style. Mine came with a 6mm hex socket (for spinning quickly into the crankarms) and wrench flats (for final tightening) -- apparently like a half-dosen others in the same price range. The higher-end pedals I saw all had externally similar cro-mo spindles with 8mm hex sockets and no wrench flats, differing only in surface finish.

What was inside each, I have no idea.

I'd planned to go for higher-end pedals thinking the "better bearings" would last longer, but then I got to thinking. I really don't know what makes them different from each other unless I got a few sets and disassembled them, which isn't very practical. Instead, I selected a box where both spindles seemed pretty smooth, showed evidence of some latent grease, and called it good for the price. A careful trawling of the 'Net for reviews shows most of the Shimano pedals seem to have remarkably good bearing life, and any differences might be due more to use and environment than materials and finish. It is really hard to say without a properly controlled study.

So, cheap it is, at least till I learn more about riding these things and can become comfortable with them. When the time comes to move on, I can either consider selling the on via eBay for a price about half what I paid on sale, or keeping them in the parts box as a backup.

Best,

Dan.

[mickeg]

If you do get a case of hot foot, it will probably be on longer rides.  If that happens, try moving your cleat 3-5mm further back towards your heel.

If a cleat screw gets very loose or falls out, you will find that your shoe stays cleated in when you try to release  it.  Keep in mind that when you tightened your cleats, you tightened the cleats against a soft material (probably plastic) that will deform and give over time.  Thus, you may have tightened them reasonably tight, but the screws will be looser in a few weeks as the soles deform. So, I suggest you check the tightness of the screws every few weeks for a few months, then monthly for the rest of the year.  On my shoes I have found after about two years, the cleat screws stay tight.  But, I check mine every spring anyway, I have five pairs of shoes/sandals with cleats to check.  I carry a spare cleat screw screwed into my bottle generator bracket on the front fork, the cleat screws being countersunk is different than all of your other bike screws, so your fender, rack and water bottle screws won't work very well in your cleats.

If you might ride in cold weather, you might want to consider the toe covers that have a hole in the bottom for the cleats.  Those toe covers can reduce the cool breeze coming into your shoes on really cold days.

[Danneaux]

Thank you, mickeg; excellent suggestions all, and I'll be taking them to heart.

I have always used toe-clip covers in cooler weather on my bikes, so the toe-warmers sound very appealing.

Yes, your suggestion about the cleats loosening and needing checking is right in line with what happens after my old Detto cleats are replaced, but a superb reminder that some things don't change with new pedals -- the difference being the entrapment possible with loose but unreleased SPDs, thanks! A really great idea you had to carry a spare bolt "just in case", as if the remedy for "hot foot".

Very much appreciated, mickeg; thanks again!

Best,

Dan.

[jags]

Dan i doubt you will ever have problems with those pedals the stuff there making these days are so well made,i reckon the only difference in pedals is the actual design or shape of the pedal the bearings would be as good in all the pedals,i have an old set of 105 in the spares box and there still good so i reckon the newer gear would be better made with more modern materials .

[JimK]

Yeah when I got my Nomad, at first I was using Time ATAC pedals whose cleats fit in SPD shoes. I like that system OK - it was just the nuisance of buying special biking shoes... for each season! - that caused me to switch to basic platforms. I did lose a cleat screw once out on a ride. Getting my shoe detached was not so easy! Out in the field I just tightened up the other screw a lot and that worked moderately well for the ten mile ride back home.