Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Muppets Threads! (And Anything Else) => Topic started by: Danneaux on July 26, 2013, 12:22:55 am
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Hi All!
I need to tap into your collective advice and wisdom on the matter of clipless shoes and pedals for touring. As a member of the cyclistes anciens I have no experience with these, and need some advice and suggestions to better avoid a mistake.
Here's the deal...
My recent stint pushing the expedition-laden Nomad and trailer 11mi/18km up 13%+ grades in gravel and dirt while wearing my ancient Detto Pietro Article 74 cycling cleats has caused me to rethink a few things.
Nearly all my bikes are equipped with really high-quality road quill pedals that are unlikely to wear out anytime soon. To use them, I must wear my old Detto Pietro racing cleats -- which also happen to be the rare cycling shoe that fits my narrow, flat feet (after padding them out with orthotics and such they still wrinkle some, but the fit is acceptable for riding). I have to have good isolation from the pedal 'cos I broke-down the fat sacs in my feet by riding too much in trainers early on in my cycling career.
Thinking about it, if I used my remaining pairs of Dettos and (no longer available) cleats with the pedals on my other bikes with the very limited walking I would expect, I can probably get another decade out of the lot -- at least. This would be great, 'cos equipping every bike with clipless pedals of similar quality would break the Banque du Danneaux if done all at once.
The plan, then, would be to equip the Nomad with SPD-pedals to match the limited walkability of MTB shoes for touring (as opposed to road racing shoes, which would me back where I am...having to carry spare shoes for limited walking else I damage the shoes/cleats). I'd simply change to my "Nomad shoes" when I wanted to ride it; everything else would stay the same. Yay.
So, this brings me to a couple questions.
First, shoes. I've tried on Men's MTB shoes and found myself swimming in them. The heel is too wide to stay socketed and the toe box is so wide and high, I run out of takeup before they're snug. I'm thinking of going for a masculine-looking pair of women's MTB cycling shoes to get the fit I need. I've sometimes had to do this with athletic trainers and it was a workable solution. Right now, the leading candidate is the Shimano WM51 (reviewed here: http://www.rei.com/product/830715/shimano-wm51-mountain-bike-shoes-womens ) or possibly the Pearl Izumi All-Road II ( http://www.rei.com/product/853264/pearl-izumi-all-road-ii-bike-shoes-womens ). I'd like to spend no more than about USD$100 for the shoes, and wouldn't mind getting more expensive ones if they were about that price when on sale.
Has anyone here used either of these shoes? Can anyone suggest a narrow men's alternative at a similar price-point? Thoughts and ideas are welcome.
Second, pedals. Reviews I've read indicate small ones are more likely to result in hot spots and nerve pain than those with greater surface area, though I would imagine it depends on the shoes they're used with. I'd like shielded cartridge bearings and cro-mo spindles.
Jawine has already suggested eBay and with good reason; the prices I've seen there for new are roughly half the price of new online and about a third the price of new at local stores.
Black would be very nice aesthetically to maintain the Stealthy Nomad image, but I could live with silvery, I guess.
Several have caught my eye, including these well-reviewed ones:
• Shimano A520 SPD Sport Pedals, apparently single-side entry: http://www.rei.com/product/724917/shimano-a520-spd-sport-pedals
• Shimano M540 SPD Bike Pedals, double-entry, which seems a plus: http://www.rei.com/product/705310/shimano-m540-spd-bike-pedals
• Shimano M424 SPD Pedals, double-entry? These appear essentially the same as the M540, but with a larger surface area thanks to the plastic platform surround: http://www.rei.com/product/752295/shimano-m424-spd-pedals
• Shimano XT M785 SPD Mountain Bike Pedals, which look to be a higher quality version of the M424: http://www.rei.com/product/826096/shimano-xt-m785-spd-mountain-bike-pedals
• Some of the Crank Bros lower-end Candy pedals look nice, but there have been worrisome reports of spindle breakage and the occasional bad bearing.
So, that's where I am in my thinking at present. Any thoughts, suggestions, preferences or prejudices wrt to clipless touring pedals and shoes for skinny-footed male cyclists like myself?
Many thanks in advance to all!
Best,
Dan. (...who thinks fitting feet may be nothing compared to footing the bill)
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Dan before you buy what size do you take, i have a new pair of northwave look exactly like those shimano if the size is right there yours. cant check now though as the wifes in bed and thats where there stored . ;D ;D
but like you i wore straps and nailed cleats for years change to look pedals when they became popular never looked back far far better.mind you the time pedals are far better than look much more float.
anyway back to shoes and pedals ,my pedals are flat one side cleats other cant think of model my shoes are great as well but again cant thing what model they are if i can find them on chainreaction i'll post here.
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http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=5937
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=55369
here you go dan both excellent.
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Thanks very much, Jags; extremely thoughtful of you!
I'm...not sure what size I really am, as American (and Italian) sizes seem to have changed. My men's Dettos are a 45, but that number now seems too big to fit well in current sizes. My men's street shoes used to be an American 10.5 but are now a 9.5 (I'm shrinking as "vanity sizing" has hit the American men's shoe market). In a men's styled women's trainer (say, an Adidas Vigor TR2) I'm women's size US 11 (which the box tells me is a UK 9.5, German 9.5, French 44, a Japanese 280, and a Chinese 270).
Looking at REI, a customer review for those Shimano WM51s says she usually wears a US size 10.5/11 in women's and got a 43 and had just enough room at the toe. Given that, I might take a 43...it is as large as REI have available. I do see the Zappos online shoe store offers them in a 44 as well. Given 100% of their reviewers thought the shoes ran true to size, then the 44 might be the better choice, as it correlates to a US women's 11.2, the same size as my Adidas trainers.
Really helps to hear what else works. If I were going for roadie shoes, then Look or Time would definitely be near the top of my list, but the MTB style seems more "walkable" around camp and therefore better for my general loaded touring needs. Any problems picking up the single-sided pedals, jags? Do you just pedal on the other side if necessary (say, when in a hurry getting away from a traffic light or when needing to dab a toe on sketchy single-track?
Best,
Dan.
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http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=5937
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=55369
here you go dan both excellent.
Yup -- I run the M324 pedals on my bikes and like them a lot. I can use conventional shoes on the quill side, and SPDs on the SPD side.
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Ah! <rubs hands in delight> Data!
Jags, the MT33 shoes sound from the reviews as if they run pretty narrow; that's very encouraging. They look nice and conventional laces offer some real flexibility in fit and easy replacement if a lace breaks.
Jags and George, the M324 pedals sound really intriguing and versatile. Did you find the bearings to be fairly long-lived? I ran across a couple reviews that mentioned problems with that as well as rust on the cage, but that might have been a limited experience.
Thanks, guys!
Best,
Dan.
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so far so good with mine Dan ,there is a wee bit of play in the pedals but nothing to worry about me thinks.
Dan best would be to go with mountain bike shoes you wont do any walking in time cleats or look cleats for that matter ,where as the spd's are great the cleats are recessed into the sole.
I'll get back to you tomorrow on the size i have I'll send you a photo.
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Jags and George, the M324 pedals sound really intriguing and versatile. Did you find the bearings to be fairly long-lived? I ran across a couple reviews that mentioned problems with that as well as rust on the cage, but that might have been a limited experience.
Rust on the cage is definitely an issue for mine. I use 'em anyway.
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Hi Dan
Cannot give any advice on the paticular shoes but some thoughts come to mind.
Shimano shoes are notoriosly small/narrow so you may not need to go down a size to get the right fit. I have MT53 shoes in a 46 which is a comfortable fit but I can take a 44 shoe in some styles 9other makes) and I am generaly a 45 (first size I try in any shoe)
My other thought is although mtb spd is a vast improvemnet on road bike cleats they are still limited in their comfort and ability for waliking. I find mine great for walking round town but they start to let you down when the going gets tough. The limited bend in the shoes makes foot articulation almost impossible and the hard soles give low grip.
Since moving to spd, I always carry a pair of Vibram 5 fingers with me. They weigh almost nothing, I find them very comfortable and give excellent grip/articulation for getting over rough ground. For touring purposes they also give you a set of slippers/evening camp wear.
They are relatively expensive but if looked after they do last.
Andy
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Thanks, Andy; this is really helpful as well, especially wrt Shimano shoe fit.
One question I have after reading this summary of MTB shoe characteristics... http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Content_10052_10551_-1_CyclingShoesPedals
...is whether an MTB shoe's sole would be stiff enough for my occasional long 300-400km days in the saddle compared to the equivalent modern road-bike shoe.
It would still seem to come down to surface area underfoot, and so my thoughts are beginning to turn toward the Shimano SPD pedals with the larger platform surround such as the XT M780/M785.
Real good point about the relative walkability of MTB shoes. I tried on a pair in the store, and while it was possible, I wouldn't want to walk very far. The big thing to me was the ability to walk whatever small distance without damaging the shoe/cleat. It looked like they might be the ticket for walking safely into the occasional store or public restroom without risk of a big public fall as I managed to do in a Belgian cafe (after the crowd finished gasping and expressing their worried concern...they applauded!).
<nods> Yes, I think I'd still want to take some sort of camp shoes.
All the best,
Dan.
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Dan
I currently have Shimano M324 on my Nomad and find them just perfect. I think you have the link above but here it is:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=5937
As for shoes, I have Shimano M088 ones and they are comfortable for walking and riding:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=91461
In the past I have tried Specialized touring shoes but because of their lack of stiffness (due to the smallness of the metal plate) I've ended up with footache after a couple of days.
I did LEJOGLE in June 2012 and found the combination worked very well. Good luck with whatever you decide.
Fraser
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I currently have the Shimano A600 pedal (better bearings and anodised, when compared to the A520). Im not sure its worth the extra over the 520, but I got them in a sales.
These pedals are great, I've never had hot spots on my feet and the extra platform support on the is really good. Mild downside, as they are single sided its a bit of a faff to get going now and again, but nothing you wont get used to. Also on mine I've put a few scours in the underside with my shoe cleat before I flip the pedals over and clip in properly. In general though, highly recommended.
On Shoes I went for Shimano M087's. These are what they call mountain sports rather than mountain touring, but I've found them very good for touring in. I initially wanted to get the RT82 shoe but my local shop couldn't get them in. As it turns out the sole is the same (As is the road shoe R087) its just the grip pattern thats significantly different. Following advice I got a size (or 2) larger than I usually take and I've found these to be fantastic. They are great cycling in and reasonably ok walking in though obviously not as comfortable as those shoes with a more flexible sole. My only problem is I should have probably gone for the wide version as they can pinch me left foot side a bit if I tighten the straps down.... my mistake though.
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I used to use quill pedals + toeclips + straps (for nearly 20 years, since mid-teens).
But then about 15 years ago I switched to clipless. And I would now *not* go back to toeclips.
I went for Shimano SPD for 2 reasons:
a) The almost universal availability of pedals + cleats + compatible shoes
b) The much better "walkability" of the shoe + cleat combination.
When I switched I almost immediately persuaded my wife to also try SPDs. She was similarly a long-term quill + toe clips + straps user, but she was initially rather reluctant / hesitant.
So we bought the M324 pedals and I transferred the existing toe clips + straps across.
She really liked this option of using SPDs when going on a dedicated cycling trip
but then being able to use "ordinary" shoes in the toeclip side for casual / short cycle journeys
(When not using the toeclips the straps get done up really tight to avoid the clip occasionally trailing/scraping)
She still uses these pedals nearly 15 years later They are holding up fine, just the occasional splodge of new grease in the bearings.
However she also now uses double-sided SPDs (all be it with a pedal reflector clipped into one side) on another bike.
I have short-but-wide feet, so totally opposite to Dan's feet, but I can heartily recommend Shimano's SD66 SPD sandals, precisely because they have the ability to adjust the width at toe end of the shoe.
I assume you have Sheldon Brown (RIP) site, and in particular this page: http://sheldonbrown.com/shoe-pedal.html (http://sheldonbrown.com/shoe-pedal.html) ?
And if you are interested in one-sided SPD with ordinary shoe use on the other (and in black)
you might want to look at: Shimano PD-T780 XT (available in US from at least: http://www.xxcycle.com/pedal-shimano-pd-t780,,en.php (http://www.xxcycle.com/pedal-shimano-pd-t780,,en.php) )
(They won't take toeclips + straps on the "plain" (i.e. non-SPD) side though.
--
Ian
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Dan sent you photos of shoes but sorry buddy i dont think there what your looking for and to small as well.
anyway the clipless pedals are great and hard to beat shimano. ;)
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Sorry to come in on the discussion a little late but I've found Time Atac Alium clipless pedals to be easier on the knees than various Shimano offerings and they seem pretty bombproof too. The plus side also is that the cleats are SPD shoe compatible. I previously had Shimano XTR pedals fitted to my RST but find the Time superior in every way.
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Hi All!
Thanks so much to each of you for weighing in with your experiences. Now I've spent the early morning looking at each of the links -- and user reviews online -- I can see why each of the shoes and pedals you recommend are your favorites. Each has something unique to recommend them, and each is a good value for the money spent.
Today, I hope to drop by REI and try on a wider range of shoes to see about fit and to look at pedals with the shoes in mind. I can see that to some extent it helps to think of the two as a system if one is to maximize benefit/priorities.
Thanks to your help, I'm beginning to form a better picture of what I might prefer or need:
• Given where I'm coming from and my need for limited damage-free walkability, I think I'd prefer a stiffer shoe.
• A larger pedal platform of some sort would seem to better distribute pedal pressure and help to prevent/eliminate hot-spots.
• Double-entry wouldn't be a requirement so long as I could still make some sort of forward progress on the "off" side till I could click in.
• I think I would consider cleat with multi-directional release to allow that quick toe dab when making my way through roots and goat tracks, uphill, when momentum can run out quickly. Ian's comment cleared up a mystery about how one could also run clips-and-straps in the reverse side of some pedals and not encounter a snag -- just tighten them down into a compact bundle on the reverse side when not on use.
• I think it unlikely I would ride in ordinary shoes; with my high-light cadence, I need to be firmly attached except for those frantic few moments as the pedal comes 'round when starting uphill with a heavy load on loose surfaces.
• I am greatly attracted to the amount of knee-friendly float in the Time pedals/cleats, but worry about reports of relatively quick-wearing, expensive brass cleats and the limited surface area that seems to characterize Times. I surely do like the reports about long bearing life and ease of use, again with that generous amount of float.
• The near-universal availability of SPD-compatible pedals, cleats, and shoes appeal in terms of wide availability and a better chance to rectify a mistake by replacing just one component if I make one initially.
• If it weren't for the possibility of damage-free limited walking, I'd go with a lighter, stiffer roadie setup, but that's what I already have. I'm a little appalled at the rotating weight of these systems compared to mine. My SunTour Superbe Pro pedals ( http://www.velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=731f7dc9-4d2e-45c6-9acd-da181eea1b3d&Enum=109 ) weigh only about 250g and the ol' Dettos come in at about 640g/pair even with orthotics included. I'm wondering how this will all feel at my hummingbird cadence. To that extent, something like Honesty's quasi-roadie A600s begin to have greater appeal, and they do have a generous platform to better distribute stress. I can see myself with something like the A600s matched to Shimano WM51 shoes if I just cannot get a men's size to fit (here in the US, men's shoes seem to have standardized on a "D" width, while women's are a "B". My feet are thin, flat-arched, and -- depending on brand -- about an "A" to "AA" width).
Fraser, Honesty, Ian, and Neil, thanks so much for your thoughts and suggestions. Jags, what a gem to keep my in mind; no worries about the shoes not working, it is the thought that counts. All...this is really a tremendous help, and is moving me to better define my needs. I need to watch expenses, so I'd like to get this as right as possible first time out of the gate. One reason for the focus on REI is the fail-safe ability to make a return in the first year after purchase if I absolutely cannot make something work for my needs, even after careful pre-purchase research. I don't abuse their kind policy, but sometimes a person can't really see all the ins and outs of a product until they hold it in their hands, so nearly all my returns to them have been in unused, as-delivered, resalable condition.
Please keep the suggestions coming!
All the best,
Dan. (...who is feeling a bit less trepidation on considering a change from the way he's "always" done things)
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Dan,
If you decide to go the SDP route, then the shimano xt t780 pedals have not been mentioned and are worth a look.
SPD cleat one side, large flat platform the other, integrated reflectors, maintainable.
I use these on 2 bikes and find them excellent.
The only snag is they need an 8mm allen key to fit/remove - I carry a 6mm allen key with an 8mm adaptor to save some weight.
Julian.
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...shimano xt t780...I use these on 2 bikes and find them excellent.
A very worthwhile pedal to consider for my needs, Julian; thanks for the endorsement. I very much like the large platform...does the platform come into play for distributing pedal load even when using the SPD side? Or is it primarily for use when pedaling on the back-side? In any case, it appears very useful and the reflectors are always a nice addition when riding on-road.
Thanks!
Best,
Dan.
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Dan,
If you decide to go the SDP route, then the shimano xt t780 pedals have not been mentioned and are worth a look.
SPD cleat one side, large flat platform the other, integrated reflectors, maintainable.
I use these on 2 bikes and find them excellent.
The only snag is they need an 8mm allen key to fit/remove - I carry a 6mm allen key with an 8mm adaptor to save some weight.
Julian.
wow never spotted those julian have them on the wish list thanks .
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And don't forget to check e-bay for use pedal deals, a few months of use makes no difference on the Shimano pedals and gives you a nice "try for cheap" opportunity :)
You can get plastic reflector bodies to fit around most SPD pedals, though they're probably not load bearing. The XT780 look great for people wanting to be able to go both way.
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i have a trapped nerve in my hip man its painfull when i'm going up hills but i find the broad platform peddal a bit of help (SHERPA) i have time impact on the raleigh great pedals but when the pain kicks in there torture. :'(
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I'll vote for M324s too - very versatile. We find having the option to ride on the flat side in traffic is useful and when 'going Dutch' i.e. cycling everywhere beyond 10m away on a campsite they allow cycling in crocs/flipflops etc.
Having wide feet and high insteps I go for Specialized shoes with the high arch support inserts, though I guess that won't help you much Dan ...
One advantage of spds might be the range of shoes available, I have some fairly flexible Specialized Tahoes for days when I am expecting to walk around a lot and some sporty MTB race shoes for more distance oriented days.
I have used SPD-L roadie shoes and cleats on the whizzy bike but I can't say I see much advantage unless the ride is 100km+ at 'press-on' pace.
sdg.
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I very much like the large platform...does the platform come into play for distributing pedal load even when using the SPD side? Or is it primarily for use when pedaling on the back-side?.
Dan,
The platform is 99% for the flat side which is very good even when using ordinary sandals or the like.
I have just checked and the SPD sides on mine are showing almost no wear on the surrounding black alloy platform. The cleated side support comes from the SPD 'cage' and 2 flatted areas on the central spindle either end of the SPD cage. I find this gives me enough support and more than my much older double sided XTR SPDs.
You could get some support from the platform when cleated in if your cleats were deeply recessed into the shoe, mine are nearly flush with the walking surface as I suspect most will be.
I think that any wear this side, i.e. on the underneath of the platform, is from my poor attempts to pick up the cleats as I tap down with my toes.
I can tell which way round the pedals are as I attempt to cleat in by the noise and feel of contact.
Julian.
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Sorry to come in on the discussion a little late but I've found Time Atac Alium clipless pedals to be easier on the knees than various Shimano offerings and they seem pretty bombproof too. The plus side also is that the cleats are SPD shoe compatible. I previously had Shimano XTR pedals fitted to my RST but find the Time superior in every way.
+1 for Time ATAC pedals.
I have the newer version of them with a completely composite body that does not scratch up. Also they have a wider platform beneath the bails, with polished steel protection, which gives great support. The width matters more than the length IMHO. Double-sided always.
(http://jjcycling.co.za/time/images/ATAC-XC4-b.jpg)
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Hi All!
I just returned home from an hour's shoe-sizing session at the local REI, thanks to the most patient, kind clerk in the world. She just kept bringing boxes, hoping to find something that would work, and in the end advised me to get the pair I did "only to try on the carpet with your insoles and orthotics to find out what would work better elsewhere 'cos we've run out here and I want you to get a really good fit".
My! I wish I could gave cloned her to work in every store I visit!
This seems to be the time of year to look at buying cycling shoes; they're on sale everywhere at the moment.
I tired all they had in stock, and it seems the shoes do vary from one another in fit for the same number designation and again between models. She suggested the women's models to get somewhere close to a fit, but the largest they had was an anemic 43, and I was hard against the toe box at the end. In men's shoes, the "roadie" models fit much better and more closely than the SPD/MTB types, but I've already got a (very vintage) road-racing shoe in the old cleated Dettos.
What I wound up taking home for further examination and educational purposes is s men's size 44 Giro Carbide ("Carbide"; no alpha-numeric designators here!) that happened to also be reduced from ~USD$100 to USD$69. They are an unfortunate Operation Desert Storm replica color scheme of khaki and brown, but I could overlook the color if they could be made to fit.
The problem I consistently ran into is most of the shoes are too tall in the "cone", the part over the instep and toes. This meant I ran out of foldover velcro or ratchet-buckle travel before they got anywhere near snug. By sizing down, I was able to get close to the width I needed, but then the toes were too short. By sizing up to fit my long big toes, they quickly became too wide/tall. The heels on most of the men's shoes were so wide I popped out of them when I tried to walk. I *hate* shoe shopping with a white-hot passion, and briefly had visions of using the hatchet in my garage on the offending toes, making future efforts in this direction less traumatic.
In any case, the Giro Carbides are the closest of the lot and will give me an idea of where to go from here. It was heartening the men's shoes they had ran comparatively narrow, and the women's models are now marked off the list as too short. The women's Shimanos in 43 missed by so far, I doubt the 44s would work. In general, the Shimanos ran shorter than other brands for the same numbered size. I liked the men's XC30 ( http://www.rei.com/product/848488/shimano-xc30-mountain-bike-shoes-mens ) , but the velcro pulled to where it wouldn't latch and the nice lace-up MT33s ( http://www.rei.com/product/848490/shimano-mt33-mountain-bike-shoes-mens ) laced up till the two sides touched over the tongue.
Someone was thinking, 'cos the pedal display was in the same area and that made it easy to take a pedal off the slat-wall and hold a shoe on it to see just how much support there might be between the two. Stepping on each pedal with the (cleatless) shoes was a big help in feeling for hotspots as well. The shoes I tried were not the "trainer-shoe" type of SPD, but the more MTB-oriented ones, and these did a pretty good job of isolating me from the pedal, though I thought I noticed a positive difference in the pedals that had wider platforms.
The most supportive was a double-sided pedal, the Shimano M424 ( http://www.rei.com/product/752295/shimano-m424-spd-pedals ), a basic SPD with a plastic "horse collar" that floated about and supported the shoe nicely to the edges of the sole. It would be possible to use everyday shoes on them, but you'd feel the SPD part if you pedaled very far. The M540 ( http://www.rei.com/product/705310/shimano-m540-spd-bike-pedals )seemed to be the Standard in plain SPDs. They didn't have the A520 or A600 in stock. The PDT-400 had a plastic "horse collar" as well as reflectors, but didn't seem to support the shoe as well. The A530s had a nicely concave plain platform on one side and an SPD on the other and the SPD stood well proud, so no aid from the platform there. The M530s had a metal surround that helped beyond the basic SPD mount but bot as much as the plastic collars. I really liked the XTM785 ( http://www.rei.com/product/826096/shimano-xt-m785-spd-mountain-bike-pedals ).
I did see the much-recommended M324s. They are surely a versatile design, and for a traditionalist like myself, they look kinda-sorta like quill/rattrap pedals. I like them, but at the moment, they seemed to be sold out beyond the display sample .
Whew. What a learning experience! This is one area where it just wouldn't do to order blindly online or by mail order without trying first. I have much more to learn, and surely appreciate the head-start you've all given me. I have a good memory for conversations and what I've read, and your words came back to me in the store aisles; thanks!
Oh! I see you've just posted the Time ATACs, Pete. I'll look at those next. I like the non-scratch, wider body and double-sided entry. Are they compatible with SPD shoes, Pete? Any problems with excessive cleat wear? The cleats look a little soft and are kinda expensive at USD$31, so I'm wondering if this has been an issue in your use.
Best,
Dan.
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Time pedals run with Time cleats. Not at all compatible with the SPD cleats.
Time have a design that allows the cleat to wear but the connection to the pedals is not affected. Even with worn cleats you always still have a solid engagement. SPD, as the cleat wears the pedal-engagement gets more and more sloppy. You click into the Times and there is always a solid 'clunk' that confirms you are clipped in and there's no loose feeling.
The cleats are a bit softer than SPDs but I am still amazed at how thin a lip of metal will give secure engagement. I have found the cleats last me a good 3-4 years, but usually I have replaced the shoes before that and need new cleats because the old ones have worn the screw heads to the point they are not readily removeable. Taken to the ultimate wear, Times would break the front tongue on the cleat and not engage, whereas Shimano would leave you with a cleat that does not disengage.
I've had the Times on the tourer for ~12 years and replaced the cleats 3 times I think. Only once have I actually paid for new cleats as I have twice upgraded the pedals (swapped old pedals to my tandem; new Thorn Nomad, new pedals) and you get the cleats with the pedals.
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Hi Pete!
All very helpful; thanks! Time pedals run with Time cleats. Not at all compatible with the SPD cleats.
<mods> Yes, I understand. What I'm wondering is if SPD-compatible shoes will accept Time cleats (in other words, will time cleats fit the same two-bolt holes that accept SPD cleats)?
Best,
Dan.
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Oh yes. Time uses the same two-bolt MTB shoe standard.
[edit] The other thing in favour of Time is mud. Their mud-clearance is exceptional. I virtually never find that I cannot clip-in when riding/walking on muddy tracks (in great contrast to SPD). The only times that pedal-engagement has ever been difficult/not possible has been when the mud has stone in it - rock in your cleat will stuff up any pedal engagement.
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Oh yes. Time uses the same two-bolt MTB shoe standard.
Terrific, Pete! The greater "float" of the Times has great appeal to my knees, and will bear close investigation. I also like the idea of the essentially mar-proof composite body and the sacrificial cleat to extend pedal retention bail life.
I see there is also a Time ATAC MX6 pedal that has an extended platform as well: http://www.rei.com/product/855592/time-atac-mx-6-pedals
Looking into this further...
Best,
Dan. (...who is just delighted with the response, thoughts, and opinions)
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Hiya Dan
If you can get a workaround to make Shimano SPD shoes fit, then I use a nice black pair of MT43 shoes, I don't think they are the latest model but still available at CRC :-
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=70096&_$ja=tsid:46412|cgn:Shimano+-+Shoes+MTB|cn:Chain+Reaction-UK-PLA-PLA-All-DT-SE|kw:267195UK_MT43+MTB+SPD+Shoes&gclid=CLqtpPmXz7gCFa3ItAodL1oAjQ
The XT pedals you mentioned look like the type that require a large hex wrench to fit and/or undo -
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=27034&_$ja=tsid:46412|cgn:Park+Tool+-+Tools+-+Allen+Key/Wrench|cn:Chain+Reaction-UK-PLA-PLA-All-DT-SE|kw:84840UK_Hex+Wrench+Tool&gclid=CNCMrIqaz7gCFQ_LtAodKjcAUw
Andy Blance once stated that was an extra tool too heavy to carry on tour.
P.S. I can't get these CRC hyperlinks to paste in complete, they always seem to end at the underscore?
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Hiya Dan
If you can get a workaround to make Shimano SPD shoes fit, then I use a nice black pair of MT43 shoes, I don't think they are the latest model but still available at CRC :-
I use a similar pair, but the MT-41 I think, without the velcro strap, and have been very happy with them
The XT pedals you mentioned look like the type that require a large hex wrench to fit and/or undo -
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=27034&_$ja=tsid:46412|cgn:Park+Tool+-+Tools+-+Allen+Key/Wrench|cn:Chain+Reaction-UK-PLA-PLA-All-DT-SE|kw:84840UK_Hex+Wrench+Tool&gclid=CNCMrIqaz7gCFQ_LtAodKjcAUw
Andy Blance once stated that was an extra tool too heavy to carry on tour.
Any pedals that lack wrench flats are the devils spawn IMHO. Hex-keys to remove/fit pedals just don't cut it. Andy is rather misguided too - on tours where pedal removal may be a possibility I take a standard 15mm spanner as part of my tool-kit, very worthwhile.
(http://www.sidchrome.com.au/image.ashx?w=400&path=/portals/0/images/products/2616.jpg)
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Hi Dan
one observation I have re Shimano SPD pedals is this:
All the high end stuff with good bearings (xt, ultegra etc) is also built to reduce weight and is therefore fitted with a slender spindle with hex (allen) key drive.
Only the cheaper pedals have 15mm spanner flatted spindles and also rougher and shorter lived bearings. Usually the bearings wear out ahead of the cleats.
(However the cheapest way to get new cleats is to buy the cheapest pedals and sell them on having removed the cleats. There is only one grade of cleat I think,but beware there are two types offering different release modes.)
Can someone provide a scenario where pedals need removing on a tour? As a domestic user I'm struggling to imagine one :P
In regard to spd shoes I have found the following:
Higher end Shimano cross country racing type shoes are most walk/runnable whilst still isolating pedal pressures from the foot. Also, the rubberised soles, whilst not the lightest, give superb grip and security.
Many other cheaper XC shoes and some lightweight high end stuff use more rigid and lighter plastic outsoles with less grip and walkability.
I found the trainer type Shimano spd shoes too flexible and hotspot prone.
I am currently experimenting with SKS Lambda (aka grip king) pedals http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/pe1.htm but have not got as far as fitting studs yet.
Happy experimenting
Ian
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To avoid carrying a 8mm allen key I bought one of these and use the 8mm adaptor with a 6mm allen key.
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/icetoolz-icetoolz-hex-key-set-2-25-3-4-5-6-8-mm-prod29026/ (http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/icetoolz-icetoolz-hex-key-set-2-25-3-4-5-6-8-mm-prod29026/)
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Yup -- I run the M324 pedals on my bikes and like them a lot. I can use conventional shoes on the quill side, and SPDs on the SPD side.
At home I usually use some Ritchey double sided SPD pedals, but on tour I prefer the M324. Having the ability to wear normal shoes for a restaurant run or trip to the grocery store in the evening is great.
On my trip this year after two very wet rainy days, my cycling shoes were soaked. The next day I wore my trail running shoes instead of the cycle shoes, that made the M324 pedals even better.
I do not recall if your Nomad is S&S version or not, if so the S&S wrench provided by Thorn has the 15mm part that fits this pedal.
I think you will find the M324 quite a bit cheaper at some on-line outlets compared to REI pricing.
If you have any hot foot problems, try moving the cleat on the shoe closer to the heel, I would move it about 3-5mm at a time until you get it about right. I have no clue what your specific foot shape issues are but I can say that I am very happy using Superfeet insoles, they have several different thicknesses available.
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To avoid carrying a 8mm allen key I bought one of these and use the 8mm adaptor with a 6mm allen key.
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/icetoolz-icetoolz-hex-key-set-2-25-3-4-5-6-8-mm-prod29026/ (http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/icetoolz-icetoolz-hex-key-set-2-25-3-4-5-6-8-mm-prod29026/)
well thats niftist little thing i've ever seen ;D ;D
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The Topeak Alien has a similar 8mm adaptor. I would hate to use it for removing or tightening any pedals though. It has a 15mm pedal spanner fitting as well, and that would be equally woeful to use.
(http://downtownbicycles.com/images/library/site/topeak_alien_ii_06_p.jpg)
Can someone provide a scenario where pedals need removing on a tour? As a domestic user I'm struggling to imagine one :P
To take pedals off when you are going to travel by plane and need to pack the bike up for the luggage handling. Another critical time that I have struck is to tighten your pedal when it has worked it self loose.
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i always use copper grease on pedals .
mind you it's hard to beat real tools ::)
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I do not recall if your Nomad is S&S version or not, if so the S&S wrench provided by Thorn has the 15mm part that fits this pedal.
Exactly! Everybody's coupler wrench seems to also be a pedal wrench, since you'll have to take the pedals off to pack. My Nomad has couplers,so I always have a pedal wrench.
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I find the full size wrench to be a much better tool for the job than the EBB tool - always take it when I'm going by air or on longer trips. Weight penalty is minor really.
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I find the full size wrench to be a much better tool for the job than the EBB tool - always take it when I'm going by air or on longer trips. Weight penalty is minor really.
100% agree .
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Hi All!
Oh...my! I have opened Pandora's Box, whose lid I kept firmly squashed for so many years by remaining a Cycling Anachronism.
35 years ago, I found shoes that pretty well kinda-sorta fit my weirdly skinny feet (with insoles and orthotics and wedges atop that) and they had super-stiff nylon soles encapsulating a steel plate and replaceable cleats. I walked like a duck off the bike, but soared like an eagle on it. I bought extra pairs and put away when I could and have been using them ever since.
Life was good.
Those same shoes fit my very nice road-quill pedals at the time, but I found even better pedals in my 250g SunTour Superbe Pros...pedals so nice, I bought *7* pairs of them for my bikes and rode them collectively well over 150,000mi/241,000km entirely maintenance-free. A couple pairs have over 32,000mi/51,500km on them and are still smooth as new though they've been subjected to every element except outright submersion. Never had to even think about them, except their unique cage spacing meant I had to reset my cleats or use another pair of shoes when switching to different pedals on my remaining bikes.
Life was great!
Then...! Detto stopped making the shoes and the nylon Pavarin cleats are no longer available, even as old stock. I still have *three* unused spare pairs of of Detto shoes/cleats left and 10 or so other bikes that require cleats-on-quill pedals. All of those bikes, I'm likely to use the Dettos to just ride. The Nomad, I'm likely to ride and walk or push to a degree -- enough to quickly wear-out my cleats and that essentially means the shoes as well. I can't afford to swap the whole fleet of bikes over to clipless pedals, so if I do just the Nomad, the rest can continue to live in a Bicyclist's Brigadoon where it is still 35 years ago...and they can likely do so for the next decade or two if I use care. I also have laid-in a supply of toe clips and straps.
Now I'm coming into the future all at once and Life doesn't seem as Good in some ways.
I have to admit to future-shock on several fronts here myself (says Rip van Dan, coming up for air):
• These new SPD-compatible shoes and (some sort of) clipless-cleat pedals sure make for a lot of rotating mass and a heavy system.
• It appears I'm unlikely to get the sort of pedal bearing life I've come to take for granted with my SunTour Superbe Pros.
• It appears it is going to be hard to get a good fit, so I will need to build-into the shoe; that is expected, but I have to get something fairly close.
• It occurs to me I could go with a "racing" clipless system and pretty much duplicate what I have with the Dettos/clips, leaving the old shoes for the old pedals on the other bikes. The "racing-roadie" shoes fit much better than the MTB shoes, but I can't walk in them. I suspect they are more frangible in walking than even my old nylon-soled Dettos.
• Walkability -- however limited -- seems worthwhile with the Nomad for its intended purpose and use. If I can get off and occasionally push the bike, clump into a little store without falling down or marring their floors, use a primitive restroom or put up the tent, then that's pretty nifty. I got away with the Dettos when touring with my other bikes, but the loads were less and the margins were greater. I'll simply need to walk more often with the Nomad in the kind of use it will get.
• The Shimano MT43 shoes Jim (Relayer) linked to pretty much exactly fit my mental image of what I'm after if they're stiff enough. They also come in black, the roadie-traditional "proper" color for cycling shoes -- yay! They tick all the boxes for me, and even combine laces with Velcro, something I haven't seen before. In trying on shoes yesterday, I tried several from Pearl Izumi that looked like trainers adapted for cycling use. The walked the best of all the shoes, but looked as if they would offer the least pedal stiffness/isolation, which would be a Bad Thing for me. I'd much rather go as stiff as possible on the pedal for the greatest isolation from hot-spots and nerve pain.
• I've given a lot of thought to the matter of dual-use pedals (platform on one side, clipless on the other), and have concluded for most of my remote-country touring I'm unlikely to ride the bike in anything but bike shoes (having busted the fat sacs in my feet riding too much in unsupportive trainers early on). So, bike ride = helmet + bike shoes for me. My current pedals (and the little nub or "quill" at the outside of the cage, so named 'cos it resembled a writer's nib) limit me to cycling shoes only; trainers or casual shoes are uncomfortable on the cages and the wider shoe soles overhang the cages and the quill hurts under foot. If I rode into town from camp to restaurant, I'd likely use the bike shoes and carry another pair of shoes and switch once I arrived. I sometimes carry a small pocket-foldable backpack or fanny pack for such things.
• The main purpose for me to consider a dual-use pedal would be to grab any pedal surface on rough, steep startups to get the pedals spinning till I could click-in. I sometimes pedal on the back of my quill pedals for a stroke or two till I can enter the clips/straps. On the other hand, if a dual-sided pedal would allow me to click-in right away, then I'd much prefer that so I could get going at full speed soonest.
• I think I'd like a pedal wider than the "SPD-only" perch so I could avoid hot-spots and get a little more surface area underfoot. The SPD's with either a formed metal pontoon or a plastic "horse collar" around the SPD latch would seem to fill the bill in that regard. It looks like Pete's Time ATAC pedals would, too, and they come in both narrowish and horse-collared versions as well.
• Never having ridden clipless pedals, I'm concerned I'll trash my knees. My Detto cleats had "no" float, but have worn over time to where there's about 4°, which should mean I can use anything and still be fine.
• I'm a bit disturbed many of the better pedals lack wrench flats. I rarely remove my pedals except when flying with a bike, and my non-separable Nomad came with a 15mm pedal wrench at the end of the eccentric wrench as well as an 8mm box wrench for the EX shifter. My multi-tool has a slim 15mm wrench that is unlikely to reach proper tightening torque for pedals even if combined with the 6mm allen key in the other half. I do have a little 6mm->8mm adapter sleeve like Julian's (from my CoolTool kit) that I could use to tighten or loosen an 8mm pedal. It would be a nuisance, but the only reason for me to carry it in most cases would be to either remove the pedal for air travel, for service, or to tighten the pedal if it became loose. An inconvenience to carry another tool, sure, but not a stopper for me if the 8mm socket meant I also got better bearings. I need to look more closely at those Time ATACs.
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Thanks to everyone's contributions, I feel my needs are coming into focus and I can better seek a solution that will work for me. Not really sure what that will be yet, but I'm much closer. Next task is to find a shoe that can be made to fit.
All the best,
Dan.
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dan the pedals julk recommended i reckon are the pick of the crop and the shimano shoes your onto a winner. the roadie shoes with the bigger cleats you will not walk in then i guarantee that.
as for clipping in well you will do it in a nano second ;D ;D
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They look very good indeed, jags. Hovering right there near the top of my list. Gotta find shoes first. Off to Performance here in a few moments to see what they have in stock and to try on more.
Best,
Dan. (...who is coming to grips with all this and is moving forward with cries of "Step on it!")
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Regarding wearing out your shoes and cleats, have you tried Shoe Gu?
http://www.rei.com/product/679240/sof-sole-shoe-goo
Amazing stuff. You can build up your soles that you wore off. As long as your shoe uppers stay in one piece you can keep repairing your shoe bottoms. I tried some on some old deck shoes that were due to be discarded, I built up the worn parts of the soles with several layers and have many more miles of use for those shoes.
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that stuff would work great on sidewall rips me thinks.
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...have you tried Shoe Gu?
Excellent, superb suggestion, mickeg! I've tried it in the past with remarkable success on trainers, wellies, etc. but found it tended to peel off my Detto's nylon soles and didn't stay on the cleat at all. I surely wish I could find something that would stick to nylon (not nylon fabric, which the Shoe Goo sticks to wonderfully, but the solid material). It'd add years to the life of my Dettos!
All the best,
Dan. (...who adds, be sure to shoe Goo outside or the high-toluene content will subtract years from you as it adds to the life of your shoes)
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I have to admit to future-shock on several fronts here myself (says Rip van Dan, coming up for air):
Hey Dan, you are a stalwart. I don't know how you've got by, touring wearing Dettos. They are woeful shoes to try and walk any more than 20 metres in :o
• These new SPD-compatible shoes and (some sort of) clipless-cleat pedals sure make for a lot of rotating mass and a heavy system.
This has never been any noticeable issue for me. You are not racing after all. You won't notice any great difference (and I too am a spinner)
• It appears I'm unlikely to get the sort of pedal bearing life I've come to take for granted with my SunTour Superbe Pros.
I still have the very first SPDs that I bought in 1992, doing service on my wiffe's bike. They did have bearings that are very easy to service, but have had a paucity of care.
• It appears it is going to be hard to get a good fit, so I will need to build-into the shoe; that is expected, but I have to get something fairly close.
You said you use Euro size 44 shoes, have a very narrow foot and have been happy with Dettos. Pretty much the same as me, so you should find the narrow fit of Shimano shoes to be very good. You'll probably even fit into the notoriously narrow Keen Commuter SPD sandals.
• It occurs to me I could go with a "racing" clipless system and pretty much duplicate what I have with the Dettos/clips, leaving the old shoes for the old pedals on the other bikes. The "racing-roadie" shoes fit much better than the MTB shoes, but I can't walk in them. I suspect they are more frangible in walking than even my old nylon-soled Dettos.
Don't do this. They are in no way suited to the demands of touring. The shoes are light but are poor for walking and the walking bumpers will wear out rapidly if you do more than walk to the cafe table.
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Maybe another option for you Dan - Quoc Pham leather shoes (http://www.quocpham.com/) ;)
(http://www.quocpham.com/products/img/bigimg_tourer.jpg)
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Hi All!
Okay, I have taken the plunge, thanks to the very pleasant gentleman clerk at the local Performance Bike chain store, who urged me to "just get the pedals along with the shoe, ride the daylights out of them, and if they don't work, bring 'em back with your receipt for a full refund within one year. You don't have to just try them on the carpet, give 'em a go".
Well, gee, um yeah...why not? Especially since I selected so carefully that I hope success will be assured.
First, shoes. I ended up getting a pair of Louis Garneau (for Performance) Terra Comp shoes: http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1131031_-1_400098__400098
Best fit so far of any I've tried, they have a much narrower heel than the Giro Carbides, and they even look a bit like my Dettos and remarkably road-shoeish. They feel a little warm with lots of "synthetic leather " (plastic) on the sides, but time will tell. I suppose I could always use a leather punch on them al la the factory treatment on Dettos (from an era when everything had holes drilled in it), and they are a perfect fit inside my Garneau neoprene rain booties. I will need to add a tongue pad and an insole, but I think these might work, and in a men's size, yay!
Then, pedals. I grabbed a pair of Shimano PDM-530s to try: http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1108401_-1_400264__400264
I also picked up a pair of the Shimano PDM-424s to try:
http://www.rei.com/product/752295/shimano-m424-spd-pedals
...and some multi-directional cleats to have on-hand in case the lateral-release ones aren't kind to my knees.
I still feel kinda evil for "trying" these, but I am at a loss to know how else to know what will work for me and I was actively encouraged to do so by the sales clerk who reminded me it was company policy. My plan is to carefully screw the pedals onto the bike, then try them sans cleats so I can see how they feel underfoot without the risk of leaving mars or scratches and so they'll still be nice in case I have to return them. Perhaps a little too-prudent, but I'd like to find out as non-destructively as possible.
So, here we are, Danneaux in the Modern Age. Scary, isn't it? Despite appearances and my track record of hanging onto old stuff, I adapt to the new very quickly and am always the first to master new stuff at Microsoft conferences and product intros. It'll be interesting. Hopefully, the next dispatch won't come courtesy of the local A&E department....I don't know how you've got by, touring wearing Dettos. They are woeful shoes to try and walk any more than 20 metres in
Pete, it was pushing the bike and trailer ~18 kilometers up 13%+ hills on logging roads recently that pushed me in this direction. What's left of these Dettos and the three unused pairs will still be in-use for the other bikes. "Stalwart" sounds better than some other phrases I thought of while pushing. Yeah, I like "stalwart"! :D
Very good to get The Word from a fellow spinner that rotating weight won't seem too noticeable; a great help, Pete, as were all your comments in the last post, thanks! Yeah, the road shoes looked pitifully inadequate for any sort of off-bike use, though it took some doing to pry them out of my hands. The Louis Garneaus were a nice alternative, and look nearly identical to Garneau's road model, here: http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1130015_-1_400097__400097 They gots vents, but no lugs, Pete! Except for flooding out in puddle-water, I'm not sure how effective the vents would be at getting air into the shoe...they're under the insole.
Those Quoc Phams are the bee's knees, Pete, and I've nearly drooled into the keyboard looking at them. Trouble is, they're pricey, and I can't try 'em on except in Portland, if they have my size. And oh, did I mention price? About USD$231. Sad, so very, tragically sad; I wept big droppy tears of disappointment on seeing the price. These hit dead-center amidships at the very axis of Need and Want.
At any rate, I'm off, so we'll see what happens. Screw the pedals onto the cranks, attach the cleats in some sort of close approximation, and off I go for a Tour de Neighborhood to see what happens.
All the best,
Dan. (...who fervently hopes his next words won't be "Uh-oh!")
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Hi All!
That went pretty well! It went great, all things considered.
Yes, my test run with the new shoes and pedals went very well. There were no near-falls, and getting out was a pretty natural heel-out motion, similar to the up-and-rearward involved with unshipping my Detto cleats from the quill pedals. Getting clicked-in was a little harder, and I found it best to do so at the bottom of the pedal stroke, where I could bring my weight to bear. As for pedal tension, I went with Shimano's default; it seemed okay for both click-in and release effort.
I just visualized how the click-and-release was "supposed" to work, and it did. Pretty much the way I taught myself to drive a manual transmission car at age 16 using a thick book on the floor and a coke bottle in hand to simulate clutch, brake, gas pedals and shifter. I went from that directly to a customer's manual-transmission car I was repairing at the time with nary a hitch.
There were no noticeable hot-spots underfoot when I pedaled or stood on the pedals, which was a relief. The shoes are all-synthetic (with that new-car smell!), and did have a couple hotspots caused by seam edge pressure at the top-inside of the shoe throat, but I massaged them by hand and that seemed to largely relieve the problem, which could be expected with any new shoe.
The amount of "float" far exceeds what I ever had with cleats on my quill pedals, so I'm okay there.
As for rotational mass and pedaling cadence, Pete (Il Padrone) was correct; any effect was largely unnoticeable. I hummed along at my customary 110-120RPM and hit 125RPM comfortably. I think I got the cleat placement really close on the first try, as my knees don't hurt After.
The shoes are unfortunately roomy in height, and I can see them stretch tall as I lift upward, though my heel stays socketed, which is really good. This first go-'round was with the standard insoles. I think another insole and perhaps a stick-on tongue pad will help fill some of the vertical space. These Garneaus are narrower than the Shimanos I tried, so that bodes well for getting a final fit.
Now I've got something to try, and if the shoes have any hope of working, I will keep them. Possibly the pedals as well, 'cos they were a reasonable USD$55 and would give me experience until they wore out. I'm not sure about either yet, but things are looking very promising. I think I still actually prefer my Dettos for my other bikes, but this is a great alternative for the Nomad. A bit like my preferred manual car transmission with clutch pedal vs a dual-clutch auto with paddle-shifters. Each has its place, each gives one a feeling of control and connection missing in a fully automatic transmission or riding just in street shoes with platform pedals. I'd miss being able to spin at speed, and the SPDs do let me pull up, kick forward, and pull back as I'm used to, just in a little different way.
Huh. How 'bout that? The Future has arrived an it ain't all bad. Whew.
All the best and many, many thanks!
Danneaux of the 21st Century
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Hi Dan
I think I can hear massive sighs of relief all around Thornworld!!
Getting clicked-in was a little harder, and I found it best to do so at the bottom of the pedal stroke, where I could bring my weight to bear.
I often have to do that too.
So glad that you made it Dan. ;)
Jim
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Shimano pedals click in with a heel-down position - easier at the bottom of the stroke, what you have found. Time pedals click in with a forward lunge - easier at the front of the stroke on the way down.
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wow that was a super deal that guy in the store gave you, hah i can just imagine looking for a deal like that here laughed out of the store i reckon.
anyway Dan you will never return to nailed cleats or toe straps again even though there not the shoes or pedals i recommended. ;D ;D ;D
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So glad that you made it Dan.
Thanks so much for the kind wishes, Jim...me too! I was a bit concerned about how well it might go. I practiced using one foot at a time in the yard before trying the streets and kept a weather eye open for trees to hug until I remembered if I just kept riding, stopping wouldn't be an issue! It did seem prudent to release at least one foot well prior to stopping, so I glided in with one foot down.
I did awaken with some persistent low-grade right-lateral pain in my right knee, so I think I need to move the right cleat back to put my foot forward. It has felt this way in the past if I'm too far back on the pedal. All should be fine, but I want to take it a bit easy to see how things go. I added a second insole and that helped with the excess roominess.
Yes, Pete, I noticed clicking-in is easier with the heel down on these SPDs; good point to remember, and that may help getting in at something other than bottom-of-stroke.
Jags, I was floored myself by the store clerk's offer, and hope people don't take unfair advantage of it to do "trash-and-return". I viewed it as a failsafe backup plan to a carefully planned and researched purchase. As it happens, I think it will all work out fine. The second pair of pedals is still in the box, so they can be returned unused, as these seem to be working well.
At first, I'd planned to go for some pedals with higher-end bearings, but costing it all out, it seems wisest to keep these until they start to go bad and then re-evaluate. They may last longer than expected, and in the meantime, I will have learned better what fits my needs.
I always try to factor in the cost of "education" when making a purchase. If something doesn't work or is a dismal failure, I will still be that much richer for the experience and what I've learned, so the sunk costs are "tuition" in the School of Life. You can't win 'em all, but with careful research, a person can usually come out on the plus side overall. My biggest problem in the larger consumer realm recently is manufacturers making false claims. A computer I purchased claimed to have all-superspeed USB 3.0 ports. In fact, it has one (the rest are 2.0). I bought it factory-direct at a very good price, and the manufacturer disputes my claim. I ended up paying about what I would have if it had only had one USB 3.0 port, so while not the bargain I had hoped for, it is still good value for the money, albeit a disappointment. The switch to clipless for the Nomad came out much better! The chance to return even after use sealed the deal along with the sale prices, making it a no-lose proposition to buy these from Performance. I'm guessing they come out ahead on overall, given their national-chain buying power and markup from volume purchasing. Interesting concept I hope will last. I was one of the company's early customers back in the days when it was a family doing a mail-order business from their basement; never could have imagined it could get this big or see a store open in my town, all the way across the country.
All the best,
Dan.
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OK Dan dead curious here but what do you mean by better bearings.
does cheap' ish pedals from say the shimano range use different grade bearings from there cheapest to dearest.anyway remember to unclip your stopping ;D ;D
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OK Dan dead curious here but what do you mean by better bearings.
I'm curious too, jags! Every single description I read of XT and XTR-level Shimano SPD pedals talks about "premium bearings" or "better bearings" than their lower offerings. The term "Sealed bearings" is tossed around a bit, and I have seen mention of "cartridge bearings". What is difficult to nail down are the specifics. After all, an o-ring or lip seal at the edge of the body would "seal" the lot to some degree.
It used to be (reaching back to the primordial ooze of the late 1970s/early 1980s) cup-and-cone bearings really did come in different grades and finishes and these were reflected in different price-points as you moved up the component ladder.
The ball bearings on premium pedals and components were all from the same lot, matched for size to within very fine tolerances. There were even taboos against mixing remainders from one packet with another if you wanted maximize bearing life, the idea being a mismatch between production batches would load the larger bearings unduly so the load wasn't evenly share among the lot. Remember, this was in the days when all the high-end hubs had oil clips and oil (yes, oil!) was used instead of grease for "record attempts", on the board tracks, and for fair-weather criteriums. Every little bit of reduced friction -- real or imagined -- was worth it in the drillium era.
bearing races were typically just ground on lower-end bearings, and ground so roughly as to have grooves that would catch a fingernail. They "wore in" to greater smoothness. On mid-grade bearings, they were ground to a higher standard and then tempered. On higher-end bearings, the cones and races were ground, tempered, then re-ground for greater precision (so long as the final grinding didn't go through the hardened surface to the softer parent metal beneath; that resulted in an early death at premium prices and happened to some Big Names on occasion) and looked mirror-like. In those days, Shimano's 600 line was a huge value, second to Dura-Ace in finish, but lasting perhaps 90% as long in practice for about half the price; a great choice for touring or racers on a budget. Adjusting the nicer components was so much easier, and the difference in bearing race feel was apparent when spinning the bearings by hand -- there was no catching or snatching or rough spots compared to the low-end stuff, where adjustments always seemed a compromise. This is one reason why I loved shielded ("sealed") cartridge bearings when they arrived on the scene. They were consistently high in quality and when they wore out, you just pressed in another pair and called it good. Here in America, lots of components were sold, but very little in the way of repair/replacement parts were available at most local shops. Hubs typically ran till the cones pitted, then you rebuilt your wheels with new hubs if you cared; if you didn't or coudn't afford it, you lived with the gritty feel so long as the bike kept running. You could pretty well figure most used bikes would have shot bearings. Campagnolo was the exception, and all the higher-end bike stores had lovely wooden suitcase-like boxes of spare Campy parts. The parts boxes were wonderful examples of the woodcrafter's art, with carefully mitered corners, brass hinges, and a nicely stained finish.
These days, a close look at SPD axles and bearing adjuster/retainer externals makes it appear the same internals might be used in all the lower-priced pedals. The outer finish and materials and design appear identical, varying only in pedal body style. Mine came with a 6mm hex socket (for spinning quickly into the crankarms) and wrench flats (for final tightening) -- apparently like a half-dosen others in the same price range. The higher-end pedals I saw all had externally similar cro-mo spindles with 8mm hex sockets and no wrench flats, differing only in surface finish.
What was inside each, I have no idea.
I'd planned to go for higher-end pedals thinking the "better bearings" would last longer, but then I got to thinking. I really don't know what makes them different from each other unless I got a few sets and disassembled them, which isn't very practical. Instead, I selected a box where both spindles seemed pretty smooth, showed evidence of some latent grease, and called it good for the price. A careful trawling of the 'Net for reviews shows most of the Shimano pedals seem to have remarkably good bearing life, and any differences might be due more to use and environment than materials and finish. It is really hard to say without a properly controlled study.
So, cheap it is, at least till I learn more about riding these things and can become comfortable with them. When the time comes to move on, I can either consider selling the on via eBay for a price about half what I paid on sale, or keeping them in the parts box as a backup.
Best,
Dan.
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If you do get a case of hot foot, it will probably be on longer rides. If that happens, try moving your cleat 3-5mm further back towards your heel.
If a cleat screw gets very loose or falls out, you will find that your shoe stays cleated in when you try to release it. Keep in mind that when you tightened your cleats, you tightened the cleats against a soft material (probably plastic) that will deform and give over time. Thus, you may have tightened them reasonably tight, but the screws will be looser in a few weeks as the soles deform. So, I suggest you check the tightness of the screws every few weeks for a few months, then monthly for the rest of the year. On my shoes I have found after about two years, the cleat screws stay tight. But, I check mine every spring anyway, I have five pairs of shoes/sandals with cleats to check. I carry a spare cleat screw screwed into my bottle generator bracket on the front fork, the cleat screws being countersunk is different than all of your other bike screws, so your fender, rack and water bottle screws won't work very well in your cleats.
If you might ride in cold weather, you might want to consider the toe covers that have a hole in the bottom for the cleats. Those toe covers can reduce the cool breeze coming into your shoes on really cold days.
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Thank you, mickeg; excellent suggestions all, and I'll be taking them to heart.
I have always used toe-clip covers in cooler weather on my bikes, so the toe-warmers sound very appealing.
Yes, your suggestion about the cleats loosening and needing checking is right in line with what happens after my old Detto cleats are replaced, but a superb reminder that some things don't change with new pedals -- the difference being the entrapment possible with loose but unreleased SPDs, thanks! A really great idea you had to carry a spare bolt "just in case", as if the remedy for "hot foot".
Very much appreciated, mickeg; thanks again!
Best,
Dan.
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Dan i doubt you will ever have problems with those pedals the stuff there making these days are so well made,i reckon the only difference in pedals is the actual design or shape of the pedal the bearings would be as good in all the pedals,i have an old set of 105 in the spares box and there still good so i reckon the newer gear would be better made with more modern materials .
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Yeah when I got my Nomad, at first I was using Time ATAC pedals whose cleats fit in SPD shoes. I like that system OK - it was just the nuisance of buying special biking shoes... for each season! - that caused me to switch to basic platforms. I did lose a cleat screw once out on a ride. Getting my shoe detached was not so easy! Out in the field I just tightened up the other screw a lot and that worked moderately well for the ten mile ride back home.
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...the nuisance of buying special biking shoes... for each season!
Hi Jim!
I have decided to approach this issue in the same way as AndyBG -- by having a go at using one pair of shoes with various covers and different socks for cold or wet weather.
For warm weather, I plan to use my usual thin CoolMax quarter-socks, the ones that come low on the ankle. These do for socks while having no shaft makes them pack in about half the space for touring.
For cooler weather or misting conditions, I think I'll get those toe covers mickeg mentioned.
For wet and/or cold weather, I plan to wear my Louis Garneau 3mm neoprene bootie-overshoes with brushed nylon lining to make installation/removal easier. I picked up two (pairs) on sale late last summer for the meager sum of USD$14 and while they work nicely with my Dettos, they are tailor made for the new Garneau SPD shoes -- yeah!
For really cold weather, I'll probably switch to thinnish wool-content socks and put a plastic bag over my toes inside the shoes and booties for extra warmth (wind-blocking, though it may not even be necessary with the neoprene overshoes).
The neoprene overshoes-booties add the most warmth by blocking the wind, but there is insulative value as well, and they are waterproof so are also an essential part of my rain gear. Being waterproof, they're likely to sweat inside, but at least my feet will be in warm water, and if I'm wearing wool socks, it won't matter so much. They foldover flat, so take minimal space with the rest of my rain gear which together weighs an astonishingly heavy 2.5lb/1.13kg! That includes my REI high-viz waterproof riding jacket (hoodless), my Sugoi stretch lycra waterproof helmet cover, my lightweight DWR Stearns rain pants, the Garneau neoprene booties, my Early Winters 30+ year-old Gore-Tex lobster claw gloves, and some spring-coil reflective trouser bands to keep the pants legs out of the chain -- oh! and a light stuff sack to store it all. The lot fits under the top-cap of one of my rear Ortlieb BikePacker panniers, where it is handy yet outside the bag itself so wet gear won't wet the inner contents. I still can't figure why it weighs so much, but I guess it all adds up.
That's the idea. It will be interesting to see how the clipless shoes work when it is colder using this scheme, but something similar worked pretty nicely with the Dettos in temps as low as -12F°/-24°C, so I'm hopeful it will do as well with the new shoes.
Best,
Dan. (...who can at last see the wisdom of SPD sandals; they always looked like one big Ouch with toe clips!)
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it was just the nuisance of buying special biking shoes... for each season!
I didn't find that a nuisance. The Shimano MT series of shoes are so consistently sized and shaped that after I got the MT-41 (in Brown), I then went on to get the MT-61 (gore tex for winter - no need for overshoes down to -5C), and then MT-43 (in black) ... all online because I know the size and fit will be just fine and dandy, no hassle at all. 8)
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I forget my exact history with this. I think my first shoes were a bit narrow but they worked well for a long time, on my Trek 520. I got some neoprene covers which fit them well and were really toasty. But the shoes started to wear out and the next shoes I got were a bit too big for the neoprene covers - thicker soles, as I recall. Someday maybe I will switch back but for the the platforms are fine.
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Your Shimano pedals will have very good bearings, but they are not sealed. The bearing is a cartridge that is screwed in/out with a plastic 'key' that you should have got with the pedal.
(http://www.parktool.com/uploads/images/blog/repair_help/spd_5.jpg) (http://www.bicyclebuys.com/productimages/1736334.jpg)
Once you have the pedal out you just fill the bearing slot in the pedal with grease then re-insert and fasten the bearing. As you tighten it up the new grease gets forced into the bearings and the old grease gets squeezed out through the axle ports until the clean grease appears. Wipe clean and refit your pedal. So easy that there's no excuse for a bearing failure.
http://ftp.cyclingnews.com/tech/fix/?id=shimano_pedals
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The bearing is a cartridge that is screwed in/out with a plastic 'key' that you should have got with the pedal....So easy that there's no excuse for a bearing failure.
Except! if there was no little plastic "key" included in the box with the pedals. I gave the folks at REI and Performance a call asking and they all declare the boxes innocent of plastic service "keys". A call to two local mechanics reveals the disturbing news they use vise-grips (mole-grips) or Channel-Loc pliers instead and consider defacement 'n' parcel of the "service" procedure -- if they don't consider the pedals to be disposable. They apparently don't follow Shimano's "no torque" recommendation, 'cos they said the plastic collar frequently splits. Well, with pliers, that's to be expected. This is why I do my own work.
The boxes for the two pedals I have here from two different stores included pedals, cleats, and insurrections (those are what follow when the buyer finds there's no little plastic "key").
Sigh.
Just placed an order for one on eBay. Bst price was USD$4.35 delivered. Good to have on-hand and light enough to tour with if required.
Best,
Dan. (...who is very grateful you mentioned this, and thinks its absence probably explains the occasional pedal bearing failures I've seen mentioned in online reviews)
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Dan, maybe I'm mistaken and I had to buy mine. It was a long time ago. I never bothered tightening it with vice-grips, always found that just a good hard hand-tightening with the tool was enough and the bearing never came loose. I would not bother tightening it to the point that the plastic tool split :o
You probably don't need to take the tool on tour, but nice to have it in the toolbox for maintenance sessions.
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Being waterproof, they're likely to sweat inside
Well Dan, if they don't sweat inside the neoprene they definitely will sweat a lot inside a plastic bag, when ever I've gone this route I've wished I hadn't as it has always had the opposite of the desired effect. I'd forget about the plastic bags!
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Always found these to be good, and not too sweaty.
http://www.showerspass.com/catalog/accessories/club-shoe-covers
(http://www.showerspass.com/sites/showerspass.com/files/imagecache/product/9025-639.jpg)
BTW neoprene is not really waterproof. Ask a scuba diver.
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Hi Dan,
1st off I have not read all 5 pages :o Sorry!
So I have been riding and cycle touring for a long time (1st toured with Look Clipless pedals in 1988) and got the 1st pair of SPD that came into New Zealand in 1990 :o
I was also MTBing with original Dura-Ace 7401 pedals (basically a LOOK pedals) in the late 1989 with Road shoes (there was No MTB/Look shoes in NZ or maybe the world?).
So to the point SPD shoes for cycle touring I would love to get a pair of Specialized TAHOE SPORT shoes but we do not get them into NZ and they are going to be dropped in 2014 :(
I'm going to go with Specialized RIME MTB (http://www.specialized.com/us/en/ftr/shoes/mtb-shoes/rime-mtb (http://www.specialized.com/us/en/ftr/shoes/mtb-shoes/rime-mtb))
So for your maybe a pair of Specialized WOMEN'S TAHOE SPORT (http://www.specialized.com/us/en/ftr/shoes/womens-mtb-shoes/womens-tahoe-sport (http://www.specialized.com/us/en/ftr/shoes/womens-mtb-shoes/womens-tahoe-sport))
So why? Because Specialized do not just make shoes with there name on! But design there shoes for your foot and to be used to cycle with! here is the low down.
SHOE TECHNOLOGY
Developed with Dr. Andy Pruitt of the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine, Specialized shoes combined with Body Geometry high performance footbeds help athletes ride farther, faster, in greater comfort, and with reduced chance of injury.
Farther: Built-in varus angulation improves pedaling alignment for greater power and endurance. Also prevents knee pressure and strain. Faster: Built-in arch support and metatarsal button eliminate hot spots and numbness and helps maximize your power transfer with proper arch support. Comfort: Three distinct levels of arch and metatarsal support help you customize your fit.
How I got the low down on a pair of great Cycle Touring shoes that people are using in hotter parts of the world and in the rain and that is SPD Sandal's :o
I have got a pair after a friend (who has cycle about Asia) said that he is only cycle touring with one pair of shoes and that is Shimano SH-SD66 SPD Sandal's (http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/us/index/products/shoe_test.html#mens/mtb/6/SH-SD66L (http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/us/index/products/shoe_test.html#mens/mtb/6/SH-SD66L)) they would be good for you too. I will have too custom my ones (because I have very high arch's)
How Pedals ??? Shimano make some have good pedals with good bearing on most But! I like to have a little float so I 1st run Time ATAC pedals for years (10+) and now run Look Quartz pedals (how longer made but still for sale in some parts of the world)
I'm looking to change to Speedplay FROG Stainless MTB Pedals or the new just about to come out Speedplay Syzr 8)
Why? because I need to use some shims to help out my varus!
Please do not all start to shoot me down I how what I like and this is my point of view!
Also note I do work (Part time) at a Specialized Cycle Shop BUT I started using Specialized cycle shoes and part back in 1988.
I hope this is of help
Pete 8)
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Please do not all start to shoot me down I how what I like and this is my point of view!
Also note I do work (Part time) at a Specialized Cycle Shop BUT I started using Specialized cycle shoes and part back in 1988.
I hope this is of help
Actually, this is all a great help, Pete. Here's the thing: I've got such weird feet, I have limited choice in what will work, so any additional data points offer the hope of something that might work even better. I also realize my new shoes are plastic, and can't be expected to last as long as my old leather Dettos, so I'll likely have to replace the Garneaus sooner.
With something as subjective as shoe fit, personal experience is sometimes the best indicator of what works, so I thank you for voting Specialized! Those Tahoes look like a nice shoe. The women's model seems to top out around a size 43, but one never knows; one company's 43 might be another's 44 or 45; sizes do seem to vary that much between brands. The Rime looks like a nice shoe as well, and I see it is one of the few available in a size 50 for those who need big ones. A friend's son went to work for Nike, in part because he wore size 16 US shoes (that works out to a size 49).
I've surely learned a lot from this effort to find clipless shoes and pedals. Right now (late July) seems a terrific time to buy cycling shoes here in the US. Nearly every model is deeply discounted at present. Second, a pretty nice if somewhat basic MTB shoe can be found at the USD$100 suggested price point and are on sale at present for USD$70-$90. For that, one can get a stiff, isolating nylon shoe sole, reasonable ventilation, and three velcro latches instead of two (better fit). Weight isn't as light as the higher-end models, but it isn't terrible either. Going up a notch in price (USD$150-$200) gets a ratchet-latch top closure, lighter stiffness in the form of different sole materials (fiberglass), and more upscale materials, maybe even the premium synthetic leather called Lorica at the upper end of the range. On sale, a surprising number of these drop near or to the USD$100 price-point. The shoes costing above USD$200 seem to include all the bells and whistles and often seem to include weather-treated leather and use carbon fiber for lightweight sole stiffness.
Always good to hear about alternatives, Pete; thanks!
Best,
Dan.
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Exustar does some nice shoes not sure if they're available in UK.
Your feet aren't "wierd" Dan, they're special :P
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Exustar does some nice shoes not sure if they're available in UK.
They sure do! After seeing the UK website, I made a short-list of favorites to check out, but was disappointed to find only a few models are available from the US distributor. They do carry a really nice, really traditional-looking touring shoe: http://exustarusa.com/cycling-shoes/srt707-touring-shoes I was mighty tempted by these, but with no ready opportunity to try them on, it would be pretty chancy to get a good fit on the first try by mail. I don't know how stiff the soles would be, either. They look more on the "walkable" end of the spectrum, but do a terrific job of impersonating my Dettos!
Nashbar (now the closeout and discount arm of Performance Bikes here in the US) occasionally gets a few Exustars from time to time at good prices. This model looks very much like my Garneaus: http://cycling.exustar.com/index.php/en/products/2011-11-17-16-33-43/shoes/mtb/e-sm324-detail A high-value, entry-level show that is intended more for cycling and only secondarily for walking.
Your feet aren't "wierd" Dan, they're special
Jawine, you made my day and week with that; many thanks! ;D
All the best,
Dan.
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Hi All!
"Oh, ow; knees and nephews!"
Still learning with the clipless pedals/shoes. I haven't slept more than a few hours each of the last several nights (not unusual for me) 'cos of some pretty severe knee pain (*very* unusual for me). Lots of icing, not so much riding, skeert to death I was going to stir-up the old knee injuries from the car wreck when I was 16 and used them to remove a window crank, bend a shift lever, and crack a steering column cover.
I usually do best with the foot's inner metatarsal heads (balls of feet) centered right over the pedal spindle, so I took care to do this and it *should* have been right...but wasn't. My knee pain felt like when my foot was too far rearward.
Then this morning, a revelation!
It wasn't the cleat placement doing me in, it was the release tension whose default was set too high for my needs! Twisting my heels outward to release just made the ol' knees twang like guitar strings.
I backed the cleat tension off nearly all the way and the cleats supplied with the pedals still hold me firmly in place for everything but the heel-out lateral release (I returned the multi-release cleats to REI unused still in the package, along with the other unopened pedals and the Giro Carbide shoes I'd tried only on the carpet and found could not be made to fit). Now, I can "click-in" at the top of my pedal stroke, midway, or at the bottom (to start, it took my body weight to click-in at the bottom) and I can click-out anytime with what feels like reasonable force for my knees. Rotating my leg in from the hip to release helps a lot too, leaving the knee fairly straight.
Three aspirin, some more ice, and I should be good to go tomorrow.
Release tension. Huh.
Best,
Dan. (...who enjoys newbie learning opportunities and hopes the knees feel better soonest)
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i found the look pedals a bit hard to get on with especially with black cleats ,once you click in that's it no movement unlike there red cleats which has a bit of float.the time pedals and cleats are great,but those pedal systems are only good for roadies,the mountainbike shoes and cleats are fantastic easy to click in and out and plenty of movement and still your feet are well secure in the pedals.
hope your knee pain disappears Dan thank god i never suffered it ::)
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Hi Dan,
Sorry to hear about the knee-pain
For reference, on the recumbent trike I have the pedal retention set to the maximum, 'cos releasing (both pedals) is a one-off at the end of a journey as I do *not* want to accidentally unclip.
In fact on the trike, I would probably happily use the single-mode-of-release cleats.
But I share 2 pairs of SPD shoes (actually 1 pair trainer-type shoes and one pair of sandals)
across both trike and bike, so I use the multi-release SPD cleats.
However on the bike I have the pedal retention set to a more medium / "middle" setting on the RHS pedal
and one (or two) "clicks" lower on the LHS as this is the side that I routinely unclip in traffic.
'cos both sides of the bike do *not* have to be set to the same retention.
Just my 2-cents worth
Ian
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Very helpful information all, Ian, and much appreciated!
Really, this "Clipless Experience" has put me all the way back to newbie status, erasing most of the past 35 or so years of experience for shoes, pedals, cleat placement, and release tension. While I always welcome the chance to learn new things, it is also humbling how much I do have yet to learn about this new facet of cycling. The kind contributions of others moved me forward at warp speed compared to going it alone.
Though I ended up getting none of the specific shoes or pedals recommended by others, Forum feedback helped me make informed selections for my needs. The shoes...I had to get what could be made to fit, but with some key suggested features. The pedals...I was able to quickly determine some sort of larger platform would be helpful in gaining stability and distributing stress while pedaling. Taking a second look at current dedicated road shoes/cleats, I made the right choice in going the MTB route for touring shoes/pedals.
I came out pretty well overall, perhaps as nicely the first time as if I'd worked my way through several purchases on my own-- and at pretty reasonable prices (~USD$145 complete). Reviews indicate the Garneau shoes and Shimano SLX PD-M530 pedals will likely enjoy long and happy lives, aided by the pedal service tool that arrived in today's mail.
Yes, I can see how the pedals can be "tuned" differentially for a given need, and your experience and feedback here helps, Ian. Thanks!
Best,
Dan. (...who finds contrasting heat and cold most helpful to the sore knees at present, and can't wait for t'morrow to try the shoes and pedals again)
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Hi Dan,
1st off be careful of backing off your cleat tension bolts almost all the way because they some times fall out when riding with your Shimano PD-M530 pedals! use a spot of Loctite 243 will help stop this.
Note: This is only when tension is back off almost all the way!
2nd If I new of your Knee's I would have said to only use Speedplay Frog SPD pedals!
I'm about to order a pair from the UK ( ??? the UK?)
Why? Because Speedplay USA have the wholesaler for New Zealand in Australia ??? Why do some People in the USA think at New Zealand is part of Australia? Maybe because we know the USA is part of Canada! (It's Canada Right?)
So Speedplay Frog's (cool name ;) ) do not have a spring loaded tension to hold the Cleat to the Pedal but a great design. the pedals are cool too! you just have to remove a small screw and use a STD bike grease gun to lube and clean out the old dirty grease! Like in old WTB hub's and pedals.
A good tip when leaning with clipless pedals is to clip in and out when riding on some soft grass :P
Pete 8)
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Hi Pete!
Thanks for the kind tip re: screw retention on the slack pedal adjusters on the Shimano PD-M30s. The very same thought occurred to me this morning. As soon as I get the chance to test-ride them tomorrow (since it is almost midnight, make that later today), I'll Loctite 'em right up. I don't want to lose those little screws while riding!
Pete, I'm really intrigued by the Speedplay Frogs, and remember them well from several years ago. Unfortunately -- and for reasons unknown to me -- they were unavailable at either of the local REI or Performance stores, where I could have tried them on-trial. When I asked the clerks what happened to them, they were at a loss to explain as well.
I do very much like the cleat, the size of the platform, the simple design...so many things about them including the easy servicing you mentioned and their needle-and-cartridge bearing system (like my old Superbe Pro quill pedals that have lasted so well over the decades). Looking tonight, I have already found I can choose delivery to the local Performance store for free pickup and free return if necessary. The opportunity to have much longer-lived, easily serviceable bearings and knee-friendly no-spring tension would easily tip the scales in their favor, even now.Like in old WTB hub's and pedals.
Yeah! I have WTB-licensed MTB versions of the Superbe Pro pedals on the tandem, fitted with road-quill cages. Service is a breeze when needed.
Thanks for the personal endorsement of these pedals, Pete!Why do some People in the USA think at New Zealand is part of Australia?
Dunno, except for poor geography skills and the chance to gouge dearly on shipping prices to Southern Hemisphere locations -- when not "restricted" from shipping at all due to manufacturer demands. REI's shipping costs to Australia are high enough to cause nosebleeds. It really makes little sense, and it is often the same flat rate no matter the item's size, price, or weight.A good tip when leaning with clipless pedals is to clip in and out when riding on some soft grass
So far, so good on the initial go, but I've had to wait a couple days to try again. Anacin and hot-cold packs make me think I might try again tomorrow morning if the knees continue to feel better. If they still get sore with the spring tension slacked-off, then I'll *definitely* order the Speedplays even if I have to eBay the PD-M530s.
Just a couple questions...
• I understand Speedplay recommend lubing the cleats frequently using a dry lube. This makes the pedal sound relatively high-maintenance for extended touring. What do you think?
• Reports seem a bit mixed about cleat-clogging. How have you found them in various conditions?
• There have been some reports of early cleat wear. Have you found the cleats to be durable?
Thanks again!
Best,
Dan.
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Just a couple questions...
• I understand Speedplay recommend lubing the cleats after several rides. I'm a bit concerned that might cause sand pickup in the desert conditions where I sometimes ride.
• Reports seem a bit mixed about cleat-clogging. How have you found them in various conditions?
• There have been some reports of early cleat wear. Have you found the cleats to be durable?
Hi Dan,
I have Speedplay Zero (road pedals) but will be ordering Frog's next pay day. (from the UK because shipping to is far less then the USA)
But as with the Zero's you lube with dry lube so all is OK with sand and Dirt.
Clogging of cleat is no way its a clean open design (friend has only had good thinks to say about them in Mud and dirt). The only SPD's I know of that clog up badly is Shimano SPD's Sorry this is why I have only used Time ATAC and how Look Quartz pedals for the last 15th years. I Mountain Bike in load's off Mud in the U.K, Europe, and New Zealand. Frogs clean on clipping in, have been know for year's as one of the best.
Wear? I know the MK2 cleats were not as good as the MK1 and MK3 for wear. the Zero's are far better at lasting then Look or Shimano road pedals.
If you like you can wait until next year and then I can gave you a full report :-*
Pete 8)
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A good tip when learning with clipless pedals is to clip in and out when riding on some soft grass
Now, Pete...a talented writer like our Andre would label this "foreshadowing", a little hint to the reader of things to come.
All was going right as rain with the *riding* of the clipless pedals till they drew first blood a few minutes ago. And in front of Family, who had gathered to see this Latest Marvel of Cycling Technology. At least they had the kindness and sensitivity to avoid applauding, but were plenty worried at this unscheduled addition to the featured marquee.
So, what's the backstory?
After this morning's aspirin-ice-heat-icing session, the knees felt well enough to have another go. Click in, head off, not a care in the world. Little birds sang sweetly and the world was at peace. Then, oh! A curbstone. That's about a 6.5in/16.5cm drop, and I encounter something like that about every three meters on a logging road. No larrikin, I figured I could ease gently down and see how it worked if I needed to make a quick dab.
Well, I needed to make a dab alright, and how it worked was I ran out of air before the street -- and curbstone-corner -- rose up and slapped me a good one, mostly on the upper side-calf® and outside knee knob™.
Ow.
Even bigger Ow: It also managed to tear a very small hole in my handlebar tape and gouged through just the powdercoat on one of the rack struts for a couple centimeters. Now, that really hurt. I have spare tape in reserve, but it is pointless to apply till I get this pedal thing figured out. The rack strut's finish has been seamlessly, invisibly repaired thanks to several quick, light strokes with a framebuilder's finishing file and the application of gloss-matched Semi-Flat Black Krylon. You really cannot see it even from 10cm away, which is precisely why I went for Stealth Matte Black for the entire frame, though thankfully only the rack strut put it to the test. Throwing oneself beneath the falling bike does save paint.
The net lesson of this little exercise is yes, it is the spring-release tension making my knees sore. The cleats are angled and placed appropriately, and I can pedal with no pain or problems a'tall. I actually like the clipless system pretty well and it looks as if it will work about equally to the Dettos/Superbes once it is sorted for my needs. The mishap happened 'cos I did my usual sorta-trackstand in easing down the curb to avoid undue shock to the wheels and bike and lost momentum, tipping to the very side I needed to kick my heel toward for release. I "should" have unliclipped on that side in anticipation, but to maintain a realistic methodology, I stayed cleated to see what would happen. Among the conclusions worth noting: This little mishap likely would not have happened if I'd been pedaling on the platform side of the Forum-recommended Shimano PD-M324s, a lesson not altogether lost on me.
To continue the exercise to conclusion (and to a rallying cry of, "For Science!") I dusted myself off, wiped most of the blood, hopped back on, and did the job cleanly the second go-'round, getting free in plenty of time for a toe-dab if needed.
Since the cleats are on their lightest release tension and gnawing knee pain is still a problem (far worse than the curbstone abrasion, I can tell you), I am reverting to the Dettos and Superbe Pros till I can place an order with Performance for a pair of Speedplay Frogs to try initially and carefully so they won't get all marked-up. I called the local store, got the "y'know you'll get a full cash refund for a year if they don't work for you, right?" offer again, and confirmed they have none in stock to buy today. Instead, I can get a pair shipped there for free to pick up in 7-10 days -- once nationally-depleted stocks are replenished in a couple weeks. I'm placing my order as soon as I post this.
So, the saga continues with forward progress: The bike will look none the worse for wear once I replace the tape on one side, and the pedals still look like a promising means to save my Dettos/Superbes for the next decade or two worth of use on the other bikes.
Best,
Dan. (...who seems to bounce pretty well and thinks it could have been worse than a skinned knee and a tear in the HB tape the size of a pencil-top eraser)
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AH DAn what were you thinking as long as you were ok and no damage to bike then its all down to getting used to the clicking in and out of the pedals.you'll get there buddy fear not.
still i'de love to have been there to see the fall. ;D ;D
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still i'de love to have been there to see the fall.
Bet I could have sold tickets! ;D
All the best,
Dan.
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;D ;D ;D did the neighbours make an appearence :o
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did the neighbours make an appearence
...Nooo, but their curtains wiggled a bit, so I know they caught it. ;)
"Oh, just Dan again, Henry, still obsessed with that darned bicycle-thing. Never you mind, he looks harmless" would pretty well cover it.
Best,
Dan. (...who really is bicycle-obsessed and largely harmless except when he sees someone mistreat an animal)
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;) no harm done Dan that's the main thing.
chainreaction does those frog pedals but there pretty expensive 98 euro and cleats are extra . :o
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chainreaction does those frog pedals but there pretty expensive 98 euro and cleats are extra
Yeah, jags, expensive here as well. USD$105 for the "Baby Bear" oxided cro-mo spindles, USD$135 for the "Mama Bear" ones with stainless spindles, and the topline "Papa Bear" models with rainbow-finish Ti spindles are USD$250; cleats included with each. From what I can see, Speedplay prohibits dealers from selling the pedals at prices below MSRP, so competition doesn't come into play.
I placed my backorder today for some stainless Speedplay Frogs; they're due in the 16Aug and I will receive them 7-10 days later.
Just returned from the store, where I re-purchased the Shimano multi-release cleats and have now fastened them to the PD-M530s. Playing with them in the livingroom and while holding onto the kitchen counter, these seem to release at lower tension heel-out, which helps the knee pain greatly. Even better, they release with a very small heel-in movement, which doesn't hurt at all and still clears both the crankarm and chainstay nicely. They didn't release vertically when I tried to see if they would.
The effect is like the same cleat tension was reduced by about half again compared to the original cleats that would only release with a heel-out movement. I also get the additional option to tip my heel in for knee-pain-free release. I'm hoping this will hold the fort or even solve the problem before the Speedplay Frogs arrive. We'll see.
Best,
Dan.
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Hi All!
Some of you have contacted me asking how the Great SPD Experiment is progressing. There is great success following more trials! Here' s a summary:
SHOES
• The Garneaus's 3-strap design proved too painful to keep. The "anchor" ring holding the top strap was placed too high and caused the inside-top corner of the shoe's throat to bite into and bruise my instep, so I returned them. They also had a pretty slick nylon sole that offered little if any grip on polished concrete floors and none at all on a platform-backed SPD pedal I tried in the store.
• Performance had a far more suitable subtitute in the Shimano MO88 suggested by Fraser (it was unavailable during my first visit). Replacing the factory insole with a flat high-density neoprene Spenco version and an arched Spenco neoprene orthotic atop it made a workably narrow fit with a size 44. They are very comfortable to walk and ride in and despite being flexible enough at the toe for easy walking, they are stiff enough over the pedals. They have a metal ratchet mechanism for quick adjustments while riding and a really grippy rubber sole that clings nicely to any slick surface including pedal platforms. They look as if they will last a long time. They are warm in my current 96°F/35.5°C weather, but should work fine and I really like them.
PEDALS
• I initially tried the Shimano PD-M530, a very nice double-sided SPD with a wider cleat surround and decent bearings. Unfortunately, my knees can't tolerate the lateral heel-out release on even the minimum tension setting.
Shimano's SH-56 multi-release cleats helped greatly, allowing me to roll-lift my ankle to release, but the pedal spring was still too strong for my knees.
I tried the platform-backed Shimano M324s and Shimano A530 SPD Sport Road Pedals in the store, and found the SPD portion still had too much spring release tension to keep my knees happy, but the Shimano MO88 shoes did a much nicer job of gripping the platform side than did the Garneaus. I cancelled the backorder for the Speedplay Frogs 'cos I realized even with no spring tension, the direct heel-out release motion is killing my knees, and the Frogs release that way as well.
• I have now found the best pedals for my needs: Shimano's new T-series (Trekking) SPD pedals. Combined with their MO88 shoes, they're pure magic, though Shimano offer an entire line of T-specific commuter/touring shoes to go with the pedals. The lineup hasn't received much press and are hard to find on Shimano's site.
In October 2012, Shimano revised their trekking lineup and introduced two pedals for the trekking/commuter market, the PD-T400 (SLX grade bearings) and PD-T700 (XT grade bearings). Except for bearings, weight, and a slightly different resin platforms, they function identically. *Both* sides have SPD cleats *and* platforms. You can use either mode on either side as you wish. Engagement is instant, and release is effortless and so natural it requires no thought. Release requires almost no twist or effort, yet the pedals hold firm in all normal pedaling including full-power sprints, uphill climbs, and finishing sprints. I spent a good part of today testing them from dead starts on graveled 24% grades and had no problems staying clicked in till I needed to release, which was always instant.
The release angle has been revised from 13° to only 8.5°. Spring cleat engagement pressure is reduced 60% and release tension is reduced by 50%. With the springs dialed to the least tension, it feels lke the shoe cleat is magnetically attracted to the pedal -- and then held by magnets rather than a spring latch. I can pedal on them as platforms or sort of "wish" my way onto the cleat. I can't imagine an emergency situation where a person would be unable to unclip in time -- it just "happens" without thought or any special effort yet I never had an accidental release. If they did release accidentally, increased spring tension would address it. The platform remains available in any case. The supplied multi-release cleats really work as advertised on these pedals. The net result is less stress on my joints and less stress on the shoe uppers.
Though both the T400 and T700 have double platforms that support the entire width of the shoe, those platforms are best used with SPD shoes with recessed shoe cleats, as the pedal latch does protrude above the platform. They can be pedaled with street shoes, but it wouldn't be comfortable for long 'cos the pop-up cleat stands proud of the platform. If a resin platform broke, you'd be left with an ordinary SPD pedal with a somewhat larger surface area akin to the PD-M530, so things look good for long-term use in severe conditions.
In-depth T400 user review: http://www.bicycles.net.au/2013/03/shimano-click-r-commuter-cycling-pedals/
Woman's T400 user review with emphasis on the ease of release with the lesser leverage of smaller feet: http://totalwomenscycling.com/bikes-gear/shimano-clickr-pedals-review-2113/
Road.cc T400 user review: http://road.cc/content/review/69035-shimano-clickr-pedals-pd-t400
T400 User reviews at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Shimano-PD-T400-CLICKR-Clipless-Pedals/dp/B008VQCWUQ
T400 available from SJS Cycles here: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/shimano-pd-t400-clickr-pedals-prod29434/
T700 User reviews at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Shimano-PD-T700-CLICKR-Clipless-Pedals/dp/B008VQCT0E
Shimano PD-T400 (SLX grade) assembly diagram:
http://www.paul-lange.de/support/shimano/explosionszeichnungen_archiv/PD//PD-T400_3458.pdf
Shimano PD-T700 (XT grade) assembly diagram:
http://www.paul-lange.de/support/shimano/explosionszeichnungen_archiv/PD//PD-T700_3459.pdf
To say I'm delighted doesn't begin to cover it. The MO88 shoes and T-series pedals are a sublime combination that just works flawlessly over and over again in really tough conditions and has yet to fail me on catch and release. It is as easy as my Detto/Superbe Pro combo in all important ways and wholly natural with really no learning curve. Unlike my old combo, I can walk easily and damage-free on the new shoes and now understand why people have gone clipless. What an ideal combination for the sketchy conditions I often find while loaded-touring in wild country!
Best,
Dan.
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Hi Dan,
Very good, I can only wish mean Km's of cycle Fun with your new Pedals and Shoes.
Pete 8)
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So, how many pairs of pedals do you now need to buy to outfit the rest of the fleet? Or, will this combination remain a Nomad only combination?
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I can only wish mean Km's of cycle Fun...
Thanks, Pete! Much appreciated!So, how many pairs of pedals do you now need to buy to outfit the rest of the fleet? Or, will this combination remain a Nomad only combination?
Hi Mickeg!
To outfit the rest of the bikes with clipless pedals would be just too costly, especially when I have still-usable shoes and pedals for them. I'm fortunate they're nearly all equipped with extremely long-lasting SunTour Superbe Pro pedals, and I have the current Dettos and three more pairs of the shoes new-in-box in reserve (got 'em when a mom 'n' pop bike shop in Texas closed in 1989 and paid only USD$20 apiece). With care and only limited walking, the lot should last the next 20 years or so. The nylon Pavarin cleats are no longer available, but I've extended their life with some homemade steel "wear bars" to keep 'em fresh at the pedal interface. They work okay for limited pavement walking, but gravel really eats them up.
The idea is to go clipless only on the Nomad, thus sparing the others. When riding the Nomad, I'm most likely to walk in mixed terrain -- small stores, public restroom facilities, putting up the tent, pushing into camp, etc.
I just recently replaced the Blackburn racks on my rando bike with Tubus Logo Evo and Tara versions that will accept my Ortlieb bags without swapping the sizing clips (which tend to fall out of changed often). That bike is also my "faster-lighter" tourer. If I wish, I can always trade pedals with the Nomad for the occasional lighter tour and so equip that bike at no extra cost.
Best,
Dan. (...who seems to have found a happy solution for all his bikes and riding)
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The idea is to go clipless only on the Nomad, thus sparing the others. When riding the Nomad, I'm most likely to walk in mixed terrain -- small stores, public restroom facilities, putting up the tent, pushing into camp, etc.
Ah, this is what you think now! But, once you discover you can power up a short hill 2 gears higher when you can pull with one leg while pushing with the other, you will suddenly want to go clipless on your lighter bikes.
You heard it here first 8)
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;D ;D ;D correct and right.no going back now. 8)
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...once you discover you can power up a short hill 2 gears higher when you can pull with one leg while pushing with the other, you will suddenly want to go clipless on your lighter bikes.
B-bu-but George! I can do that with my cleated Dettos, ("Racing Shoes" from a bygone era)! Just ratchet down the straps or pop 'em loose and I'm good to go. The Detto/Superbe combo is lighter, too (says Dan, trying to further convince himself against all odds).
Best,
Dan. (...whose pocketbook dearly *hopes* the Dettos will remain in use --!)
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But, with modern tech, you can meet both requirements at once
- Easy to release when desired
- No unintended release when pulling hard
You gotta choose one or the other (at a given point in time) with older tech.
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Luuuuke -- come to the dark side ...
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Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo... :o
True, though, says Dan. (...who is hoping desperately the Shimano's rubbery soles will hold on this slippery slope! :D)
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Dan - this is your Destiny* ..... accept the inevitable!
*Francois Pienaar (among many others)
sdg.
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Straps are fast too mmmkway...
...but not so fast to get in/out of at traffic lights...hence only my vintage Ciocc beastie has them :)
They have as much float as you want though.
I've gone to the Dark Side a long time ago...
:)
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I'm worried. Poking my fingers in my ears and saying "La la la lalalalala" to avoid hearing isn't working to dispel these notions.
Best,
Dan. (...whose cleats are slipping toward the Dark Side :o)
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Uhhhhh...George? Steve? Anto? Jawine? Mickeg?
Today, I uh, found myself looking at another pair of Shimano T400 clipless pedals for the blue rando bike.
Just looking, you understand.
Looking...for about the fifth or sixth time.
<sigh>
Best,
Dan. (...who is growing convinced of the Forum's prescience)
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Uhhhhh...George? Steve? Anto? Jawine? Mickeg?
Today, I uh, found myself looking at another pair of Shimano T400 clipless pedals for the blue rando bike.
Just looking, you understand.
Looking...for about the fifth or sixth time.
<sigh>
Best,
Dan. (...who is growing convinced of Forum's prescience)
Bwa ha ha.
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Dan - they look ok - assuming the model numbers are the same here in the UK
The reviews I have seen say they come with multi-release cleats (SM/SH 56) which I found gave me some extra confidence when I first had clipless pedals.
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shimano-cleats-sm-sh56/rp-prod10969?_$ja=tsid:46412|cgn:Shimano+-+Pedals|cn:Chain+Reaction-UK-PLA-PLA-All-DT-SE|kw:34013UK_Shimano+Cleats+SM-SH56&gclid=CLys-LedtrkCFcjKtAodekEAkA (http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shimano-cleats-sm-sh56/rp-prod10969?_$ja=tsid:46412|cgn:Shimano+-+Pedals|cn:Chain+Reaction-UK-PLA-PLA-All-DT-SE|kw:34013UK_Shimano+Cleats+SM-SH56&gclid=CLys-LedtrkCFcjKtAodekEAkA)
These are usually silver rather than black and have a prominent M near the back of the cleat. They will release from the pedal over a greater range of angles than the black 'single release' cleats. I have not had any problems with mine releasing when I didn't want them to e.g. pulling up when going uphill. I now use the black single release cleats having gained enough confidence in unclipping.
It would be worth considering some one side flat one side SPDs as the flat sides are much more comfortable if you just want to ride a short distance in your office shoes or hiking boots. The 'pop-up' cleats like those in the T-400 don't go quite flat so you will still feel something of a bump under your forefoot. Have a look at the M324s or A530s, but don't let that put you off the 400s, if they are a good price go for them and I promise you won't look back!
On my Sunday Morning bike I use one sided SPD pedals (A520s) as I don't really like riding unclipped now.
hope that helps
sdg.
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Hi Steve!
Thanks for the feedback, which is really helpful.
My problems with the clipless pedals/cleats I'd tried earlier weren't caused by the idea of clipless or being unsure how to release. I find my knees just don't get along with the lateral heel-out-release against strong spring tension of most Shimano clipless pedals, and the result of my trials had me almost reaching for the cane I used through my last year of high school following the car accident that damaged my knees. Scared me for sure, as my knees haven't hurt like that for a long, long time and derailed/delayed my touring plans.
Fortunately, they've now recovered and the T400s I put on the Nomad seem to be doing the job very nicely for me. They're still rare on the roads here and I've suffered the usual condemnation of local Cycling Elite for riding "baby pedals", but they do all I ever asked of my Detto/Superbe combo -- cling to my shoes like grim death in all normal pedaling postures, yet release without thought or effort whenever needed. B'sides, I like the integrated reflectors, every bit as nicely done as my rare old Phil Wood cleat-compatible platform pedals: http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Phil_pedals.htm I like pedal reflectors, as their movement always catches my eye when driving. I long ago placed patches of retro-reflective tape on the heels of my Dettos so I could achieve a similar effect when using pedals that lacked reflectors.
Yes, it is multi-release cleats for me, Steve, and fortunately they come with the T400s/T700s. Combined with the already low spring tension dialed back to the minimum, I seem to have found my clipless pedal Ideal. My Honda Civic spun a rod bearing following an oil pump failure while scouting remote logging roads (I could repair it myself, but it makes no sense to do so on a 24 year-old car with 295,000km), so I've been doing all local errands by bike till I find the ideal replacement car. It hasn't been much fun carrying a spare pair of shoes in my backpack and changing outside each store so I wouldn't a) damage their floors or b) go skating across them in spectacular near-falls. It didn't take long before the Nomad's T400s pedals and my new Shimano MO88 shoes began to look really good for just those occasions! If I'm going to ride, I'll grab my cycling shoes along with my gloves and helmet, so the lumpy double-sidedness of the T400s isn't a stopper and is more than offset by the low spring tension and multi-release cleats to save my knees.
I found a source for the T400s at just USD$43; can't resists snagging another pair for the rando bike at that price.
Ah, what a slippery slope this is! ::) ;D
Best,
Dan.
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Dan - really good to hear you are getting on ok with the new pedals.
I go for a similar approach with mine in that I keep the tension at minimum and have put reflectors onto the pedals.
If it is any consolation, the Road/MTB cleats story sometimes plays out here too ... I have used road cleats on the whizzy bike, but I can't say I feel any real difference unless it is a 100km+ ride with no getting off. Polished floors in village halls, as used for feed stops on charity rides, are a nightmare with tired legs & road cleats. The first sportive I did was on a gloriously hot day, at the lunch stop there was a wonderful array of cycling shoes lined up at the door and all of us 'non-speed-bunnies' lounging on the lawn outside.
I predict you will have SPDs on all but possibly one of your bikes within a year ... and the one without will be only so you can lend it to non cyclists ;-)
Sad about the car - I rebuilt a Norton Commando engine after a similar episode when a big end bolt gave up the ghost.
sdg.
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I predict you will have SPDs on all but possibly one of your bikes within a year ... and the one without will be only so you can lend it to non cyclists ;-)
<gasp!> Steve, I have uh... <whispered> thirteen bikes...! And counting, as there are a couple that will be added when I finish brazing their frames.
This...this clipless pedal thing could get expen$ive :o so hoping to stay with the superb Superbes and Dettos with toe clips and straps for the other bikes insofar as possible (must!resist). The Dettos have slick nylon soles and protruding cleats, so their friction coefficient on a polished tile or concrete floor is approximately...zero. :o Makes an Adventure of any off-bike wearing.Sad about the car...
Indeed! I will miss him terribly. A legacy of my car-repair days, I put a lot of me put in him (as well as a number of racecar parts). :'( Spunky was my Motorized Buddy for lo these many years. Only put 7,600mi/12,200km year on him 'cos I've ridden as much as 8,000-12,000mi/13,000-19,000km a year on the bikes, so the car got a break and lasted years longer than otherwise.
Sympathy and empathy on the Commando's fate. I'm sore tempted to do a rebuild on the Honda, but it just doesn't make sense given the age and mileage. Everything else is fine now, but he has coming needs and even doing all the work myself, the value of the parts at wholesale prices is still a substantial part of the value on a 24 year-old car and it will take my time from other things like um, "work" and of course cycling. Time for the Big Goodbye. It is very hard for me to part with mechanical things. It isn't that I confuse them with people, rather they are trusted tools and reminders of Larger trips and Adventures they've made possible. This is precisely why I have so many bikes. They should logically have moved on in turn, as the most-used ones are the Nomad, the blue rando bike and the tandem, but all are fun to ride and full of memories for a soggy sentimentalist like myself.
And yeah, it is awfully nice to be able to walk in my cycling shoes...clipless pedals that work for me are a real boon.
Best,
Dan.
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I find my knees just don't get along with the lateral heel-out-release against strong spring tension of most Shimano clipless pedals,
Dan, you must be kidding surely ?? Shimano SPD pedals/cleats have quite low spring tension, if you have the tension backed off. Much lower than their road shoes and a good deal lower than my Time pedals which I much prefer over Shimano for a couple of other reasons.
Maybe you have the tension screw tightened up ??
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Dan, you must be kidding surely ??
'S'truth, Pete. I eventually tried no fewer than six different Shimano SPD pedal models, and it wasn't until I tried the T400/T700 with the tension dialed to minimum combined with their included multi-release cleats that the knee pain eased and eventually subsided. I never had it in 35 years with my Dettos and Pavarin cleats (up and back to release), but I sure did have it with the other SPD pedals that had stronger springs and required a heel-out lateral release, at least when used with my new Shimano MO88 shoes. I even had it when the tension was dialed to minimum and I used multi-release cleats.
The main component was the heel-out release, but the spring tension of the SPD pedals was a huge factor as well, even with the multi-release SPD cleats. I've got to tell you, it really hurt inside my knees, a deep bone-ache and bad. I gave up entirely on them for a bit, then sat on the bike without riding and tried releasing from the pedals and after about three tries -- BAM! -- massive knee pain again; that seems to be what caused it. I gave up riding entirely for about three weeks, during which time my knees felt wobbly and sore when walking and getting out of a chair, about the way they did after the long-ago car accident, and it scared me plenty.
After resting from riding completely and returning to the T400s with the same cleat position as before, again no problem! As soon as I tried another of the other SPDs, the pain returned immediately, so I have to say that in my case and for my knees, I just couldn't stand to use "normal" SPDs even with minimum tension and MR cleats, and had problems until I discovered the T400/T700 pedals also with the tension dialed to minimum on both sides of both pedals and MR cleats. Spring tension that is acceptable or minimal for others sure doesn't seem to work for me.
I'd never heard of others similarly affected till I read the product reviews for Shimano's SPD pedals on Amazon and various vendors' sites, the comments written by people with prior knee injuries or knee surgery or knee replacements reported finding relief in the T400/T700 line with those pedals' greatly reduced engagement/release tension. I guess I must fall into that same category, 'cos I sure had problems with standard SPDs that resolved entirely with the T400/T700 pedals (identical except for a few grams, cage shape, and an XT-level bearing/spindle assembly on the T700).
There's a good in-depth review of the T400s on BNA here: http://www.bicycles.net.au/2013/03/shimano-click-r-commuter-cycling-pedals/
The downsides? They look dumb to other riders (who won't mind telling you so) and they are *heavy*, though not as bad as one might think compared to others like the popular M324. REI actually weighs a range of samples then averages the results, so here's how the T-pedals stack up against other Shimano SPD pedals they carry:
315g - A520
346g - M540
380g - M520
383g - A530
398g - XTR M985
457g - T700
472g - M424
507g - T400
530g - M324
By the way, a new version is available with the T400/T700 pop-up, low-tension cleat on one side and a plain platform on the other and is called the Shimano Click'R PD-T420. See: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/shimano-pd-t420-click-r-pedal/rp-prod108681 They seem to be very popular among German bike-trekkers.
Best,
Dan. (...who thinks T400/T700 pedals aren't for everyone but sure worked for him when others hurt his knees)
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I recently started cycling with old school straps/pedals on my vintage bike (let's face it, SPDs would look "cack" on it) and there's nothing as floaty as that!
Turns out my left foot is more rotated than the right one when comfortable (damaged a tendon in my hip on the left some 5 years ago) so it doesn't surprise me that SPDs take some fiddling/trying out even though in theory they should fit everybody.
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Are you using "vintage"* shoes with slotted cleats as well, Jawine? If you could get 'hold of some Sidis or such (Dettos even better!), you'd get the full experience. Perhaps some Alfredo Binda Extra toe straps, too!
Best,
Dan. (*...who feels "old" 'cos he remembers when "vintage" meant "contemporary")
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Can't find vintage shoes in my size...I can look again but can be top ££££
Toeplates are a bit of a liability in traffic though...I'm not pulling straps up either, need to be able to get out in a jiffy when needed.
Alfredo Binda blue straps on Campagnolo SR pedals. The titanium axle ones. Unfortunately left one is on the way out...been eying up e-bay for ages now but top $$$
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Well at last I got a pair of Speedplay Frog Pedals.
Fitted Friday Night and test ride today and All Good so far.......
The only SPD still made that you cam shim up to help with my left leg being 10mm longer then my right leg..
Pete..
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Wonderful news, Pete, and bound to help many of us who are not completely symmetrical.
My Shimano T400 Click'R pedals are still working fine for me, mostly 'cos I don't have to use the heel-out movement to release. That just killed my knees regardless of tension. With the T400s, I can set minimal tension and can do either tiny heel-in or roll-the-ankle movements to release with no effort or pain; attached solid as can be otherwise -- Yay!
I really wanted some Speedplays and fingered them longingly in the store, but found they just weren't compatible with my knees. 'Sure like the design, though.
Best,
Dan.
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All Good Dan,
Please note that the 20 degree's to get out can be adjusted by adjusting the angle of the shoe part in 10 degrees and then you only have 10 degrees to unclip.
No Spring loading and foot move easy
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3811/11021888183_9170f4f7a9_c.jpg)
Pete . . .
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My left side is "wonky" i think...pedaling just not as stable as right side.
I tore a hip tendon years ago, that may have done it. At least I'm not a horse so I don't need shot...
Bike fits are good for any issues, but alas very expensive in UK, £200.
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Just a general touring shoe recommendation:
We both use SPD pedals for commuting and touring (Shimano PD-A530). While the flat/ non-cleat side only gets rare use, it's still nice to have for quick rides round the corner or if a mud-fest of the African back-country makes cleats all bugged up. Can heavily recommend them. Both of ours have done somewhere above 10,000k and are still going strong, minor surface scratches aside.
I have a couple of Specialized mountain biking shoes, which both do a great and comfortable job (one of them with the Specialized inserts to stop getting numb toes on long hilly rides on my road bike). While walking around with them off the bike is ok, it's not super-comfy due to the obviously stiff build. The other thing is that with having wonky feat, I walk off the outer back of the heels. I've glued pieces of old brake pads on them to stem otherwise perfectly ok shoes from going to unusable toast, but I only got onto that when it was a bit too late, so they keep coming off (lack of flat surface for good gluing). The shoes I'm looking into for our upcoming 1 year touring trip are the ones my partner has had for 6000km in Europe/ Africa and then the same again in commuting since: Lake mountain biking/ SPD shoes with vibram soles. Despite their use they are in great shape and the vibram sole keeps them from wearing out from walking on them. Can heavily recommend them for touring! Don't get confused by photos showing them with two massive spike cleats at the front, they can be optionally screwed in (like football/ soccer cleats) for cyclocross etc. Without those the bolt heads are up from the sole around it, so don't touch the ground.
Re knee pain from un-clipping: know the feeling. Way to avoid is to a) have tension right down, b) a drop of chain lube on the spring and c) not too loose shoes (if they are too loosely closed you have to jerk harder to get out; shoes comfortably snug reduces the play between foot, shoe and pedal, which lowers jerk required to get free.
Cycling shoes are for cycling, even ones with MTB vibram soles. If you want comfy shoes for walking around town/ camp/ hiking while touring you're better off with another pair. That said, after both logging a pair of hiking boots all the way through Africa and only wearing them once (!) - basic lesson from touring: on your days off the bike motivation for exertion is...minimal. We got sore legs only from days of walking rather cycling! For our next trip we're going with said SPD cleats/ sturdy outdoorsy trainers and flip-flops/ thongs.
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I have been using Shimano MT (Mountain Trail I think) MTB SPD shoes for some years now and I have been very happy with them.
However last year I did a lot of cycling on my audax bike and this led to me reverting to lycra cycling shorts as opposed to baggy MTB shorts which I use with my RST. The only / minor downside to this was that I always felt the somewhat chunky look and weight of the MT shoes looked a bit silly with lycra shorts - but I wouldn't consider returning to road shoes and Look cleats ... been too long and I'm not fast enough for those any more! I had given up looking under 'touring shoes' ages ago because there was never anything SPD compatible available except MTB style shoes, but it seems that things have changed!
Last week I discovered some new lines of very smart looking SPD touring shoes, which look very similar in style to traditional touring shoes with a slim shape, but also with 2 or 3 velcro straps to add a kinda roadie look.
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/shimano-rt32-spd-shoes-black-prod26728/
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/shimano-rt82-spd-shoes-black-prod26727/
But then I found a pair of Specialized BG Sport Touring shoes with 30% off! :o
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/specialized/bg-sport-touring-shoe-ec025555
These arrived today and first impressions are great, they seem to have a stiffer sole than the MT shoes which almost brings back the feeling of riding with rigid soled roadie shoes, but ones you can walk easily in. They are a neat fit and well ventilated, I can't wait for springtime when I will be getting them out regularly. ;D
Jim (... whose Shimano MT61 shoes are great for winter time)