Author Topic: Most important athlete of all-time?  (Read 37999 times)

Bearbait

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2011, 12:09:38 AM »
Some people would say Ted Williams is head and shoulders above anyone else on ice. I think Wayne Gretzky the best.  he totally transformed a sport with skill and genius. 

Fred A-M

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2011, 09:45:04 AM »
More on the Armstrong Case - it seems that the accusations from former team mates just keep coming - how dare they!?  :o

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13465590

Also, just to prove a point that drugs needn't be part of the formula for success, Moncoutie (see earlier posts) won the Vuelta King of the Mountains for the 3rd consecutive year last year

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Moncouti%C3%A9
 

neil_p

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2011, 11:38:16 AM »
More on the Armstrong Case - it seems that the accusations from former team mates just keep coming - how dare they!?  :o

I've noticed he (or his press agent) always say "he has never failed a test... he is the most tested athlete"... I don't remember him ever saying "I have not ever taken banned substances".  Perhaps he thinks its illegal to get caught taking EPO, but taking it and not getting caught is a different kettle of kippers.

Fred A-M

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2011, 11:29:48 AM »
Well put Neil.......and I think a similar choice of words was used by Marion Jones, whose case history has a remarkable similarity to that of Armstrong's in that they've been systematically implicated of drug use throughout their careers.  They also both chose to professionally associate themselves with chararacters who have been prominent in use of performance drugs or have who have been complicit in their use, Dr Ferrerri in Armstong's case.  

It seems that the trickle of allegations from former team-mates, is turning now into a steady stream - with Hamilton and now Hincapie seemingly testifying that Armstrong used EPO.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13481408

« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 11:32:05 AM by Fred A-M »
 

Pavel

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2012, 07:43:34 PM »
Most important athlete of all time?  Leonidas.  Second would be Jim Thorpe.

Fred A-M

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2012, 11:51:15 PM »
More on the ongoing Armstrong saga - he seems remarkably persecuted for an athlete with such an unquestionably clean record.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/18435771

 

macspud

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2012, 09:24:49 AM »
I've noticed he (or his press agent) always say "he has never failed a test... he is the most tested athlete"... I don't remember him ever saying "I have not ever taken banned substances".  Perhaps he thinks its illegal to get caught taking EPO, but taking it and not getting caught is a different kettle of kippers.

A quote from Armstrong on the BBC:

"I have never doped, and, unlike many of my accusers, I have competed as an endurance athlete for 25 years with no spike in performance, passed more than 500 drug tests and never failed one."

Notice he says "I have never doped" in his statement.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 09:38:17 AM by macspud »

macspud

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2012, 09:35:26 AM »
More on the ongoing Armstrong saga - he seems remarkably persecuted for an athlete with such an unquestionably clean record.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/18435771



Yes I agree with you Fred,

This statement from the USADA:

"As in every USADA case, all named individuals are presumed innocent of the allegations unless and until proven otherwise through the established legal process."

But yet the fact that:

"The 40-year-old has been immediately banned from competing in triathlons, a sport he took up after his retirement from cycling in 2011."

In my mind the two do not go together, either he should be banned because of proven guilt or he should be assumed innocent and allowed the compete, unless or until proven otherwise.

As it is, he is being punished as if guilty but without anything being proven.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 09:46:32 AM by macspud »

Andre Jute

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2012, 12:18:56 PM »
Yes I agree with you Fred,

This statement from the USADA:

"As in every USADA case, all named individuals are presumed innocent of the allegations unless and until proven otherwise through the established legal process."

But yet the fact that:

"The 40-year-old has been immediately banned from competing in triathlons, a sport he took up after his retirement from cycling in 2011."

In my mind the two do not go together, either he should be banned because of proven guilt or he should be assumed innocent and allowed the compete, unless or until proven otherwise.

As it is, he is being punished as if guilty but without anything being proven.

Couldn't agree more. This is a case of mentally inadequate and morally spineless officials covering their asses, having it both ways, without understanding that they do the sport immense damage by giving so much credence to what may be no more than promotional gimmicks thought up by the managers of people whose sole claim to fame is that they rode with Lance.

They're in fact punishing Lance for unproven allegations, made by people who're none too clean, about what happened long ago in another sport. And for no greater cause than that these freeloaders can claim "we're clean".

Andre Jute
...who almost rode with Lance once http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLING.html

Fred A-M

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2012, 02:59:13 PM »
Andre, I feel your 15 seconds of associated fame has blinkered your opinion of Sir Lance - I simply don't understand the logic of what you are saying, but am assuming it is in defence of him?   Which does the sport more damage, the dopers or the officials?   I would argue that responsibility lies ultimately with the cause rather than the effect.  Another snippet from the BBC:

"More than 10 cyclists as well as cycling team employees witnessed Lance Armstrong using performance-enhancing drugs and techniques...."  

These are the dopers to which you are referring?  Having been caught and paid the price,  I'm certain that to be labelled a liar or cheat twice is something none of them would want or be willing to risk.  More likely, they are truly disdainful and are genuinely angry that he hasn't paid the price for a career of cheating, when they have paid the price, and that Lance's arrogance is in part responsible for the number willing to testify against him.  Outside of the truth, I really fail to see what motivation his detractors would have, especially given their number.

I was going touch on the subject of being presumed guilty before being found guilty in my last post, but the following sentence in the BBC report dissuaded me:

"It says it collected blood samples from him in 2009 and 2010 that were "fully consistent with blood ma­nipu­la­tion including EPO use and/or blood transfusions".  I'm not sure what motivation USADA would have in making such a statement, other than maintaining its credibility in being transparent in getting to the truth.   Are people really suggesting (including Lance) that there might be other motivations other than fulfilling its core remit effectively and to the best of its ability?  If so, could anyone explain to me in a coherent and objective manner what those motivations could be in pursing these apparently "baseless" claims?

For my part I'm guessing that the agency feel that the weight of evidence and its gravity is so undeniably overwhelming that they felt compelled to act, albeit in quite an exceptional way.  A bit like bail conditions for a crime suspect even though they haven't been proved guilty.  At least Lance still has has his freedom which given the weight of accusations and their implications, is quite generous.  

I personally don't understand how anyone can truly believe that Lance hasn't doped, and I am amazed that he has managed to evade detection for so long given the endlessly long list of circumstantial evidence provided earlier in the thread, which his supporters somehow conveniently contrive to overlook.   As also earlier mentioned, others have managed successful careers without the slightest soupcon of suspicion and their integrity totally intact, endorsed by as model professionals by all others within the sport.  With Lance, it's just the opposite, and more stuff will inevitably come out.  My personal opinion is (and is just that) that he'll ultimately go down in history as having caused more damage to the credibility of the sport than any other individual, or team or organisation.





« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 07:29:58 PM by Fred A-M »
 

Andre Jute

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2012, 09:20:12 PM »
The logic is simple. Until Armstrong is proven guilty before a jury of his peers, and all the appeals procedures exhausted, he's innocent and should be treated like everyone else. "Innocent until proven guilty before a jury of your peers" is an important principle of everyone's liberty, not to be set aside by a bunch of self-inflated blazers.  -- Andre Jute

Fred A-M

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2012, 09:57:04 PM »
As I said, USADA must have pretty compelling reasons for such drastic action, especially given the inevitable ensuing criticism ref human rights.....but he still has more freedom than most, due to his amassed wealth.  

You're entitled to your opinion Andre, though I find your derision in judging people who try and provide a framework of disincentives for cheating somewhat puzzling and contradictory - surely those who continue to cheat within the sport, and those who have been their mentors and role models for sporting malpractices should be the focal point of your vitriol?

Given that Lance has been the most influential role model of them of all, I guess we'll have to see if he turns out, to use your own language, to be the most morally spineless of them all.....
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 09:59:44 PM by Fred A-M »
 

triaesthete

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2012, 08:39:43 PM »
As cyclists go my money would be on Sean Kelly: Hard, durable, versatile and didn't focus on one event per year.

Fred A-M

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2012, 02:08:28 PM »
From what I recall of Sean Kelly, he certainly had the respect and admiration of fellow pros for reasons you mentioned - he did fail a couple of doping controls, but doesn't have a litany of ex-pros wanting to testify against him, suggesting that he's probably a more respected character than Armstrong - I guess it ultimately comes down to whether you accept that doping is part and parcel of the sport's history and heritage.  As mentioned previously, the more I learn about LeMond, the more he stands out as being the Tour circuit's last credible superstar.  As exceptionally exciting as last year's TDF was, I can't help but feel in some ways that it stands for Tour de Farce, such has been the number of high profile doping revelations of late.  I am looking forward to this year's edition with eager anticipation nonetheless.....
 

6527richardm

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2012, 02:11:49 PM »
If you are looking at cyclists alone then I am amazed that nobody has mentioned the cannibal Eddie Mercx who won nearly everything he entered.