Author Topic: Most important athlete of all-time?  (Read 29805 times)

triaesthete

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2012, 09:05:52 pm »
 Cycling was always a hard, gritty sport and for so long doping was a normalised part of it. Doping was proscribed at about the same time that the big money came in and then of course it all got more specialised and playing to the absolute limit of the rules became the norm. ie the what's not illegal is allowed mindset.
I always admired the dogged heroic tenacity of Kelly, Zoetemelk, Poulidor, Simpson etc over the sheer talent of Armstrong, Merckx, LeMond etc.

Danneaux

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2012, 09:27:58 pm »
Hi All!

As an American cycling enthusiast, I have been following Lance's journey with great interest over the years, from his beginnings as a triathlete to his entry on the world stage of cycling and many eventual wins in the Tour de France. I admired his boyish brashness until it turned to arrogance on the world stage and I cringed at his ill-considered comments to the press and about his competitors, the race, and the sport in the early days of his TdF career. As with many who have suffered life's trials, his battle with cancer seemed to humble him and left him a nicer, less abrasive fellow for awhile; that wore off over time as he fully embraced his return to health and became Lance, Inc. with the well-intended Livestrong foundation and greater corporate involvement.

Discussing his record and history was a favorite pastime during my tours of Europe in 2008, and many of the French, Dutch, and Belgians I spoke with felt there could be no doubt as to his use of performance-enhancing drugs.

I have my own suspicions (and only that; I am speculating like everyone else) he may be telling the truth in the semantic sense -- perhaps he really didn't dope if "doping" means using drugs that were banned and detectable by testing. Remember, these tests only find what they are designed to detect. If he used performance-enhancers that were not on the banned list nor tested for, then he could be telling the truth. That would in no way equate to "riding clean", but it would allow him to have it both ways and so avoid strict prosecution or conviction according the the stated guidelines of the USADA. It would also account for results "fully consistent with blood ma­nipu­la­tion including EPO use and/or blood transfusions". In other words, he may have gotten there by unconventional means.

Mostly, I find it sad and deeply disturbing we live in an era where doping has entered the athletic arena and calls into question the accomplishments of all participants and competitors, clean and dirty alike. I long for the days when that was not the case, when true athletic ability was the prime determinant of performance, results, and victory. Or I did, until I read that TdF competitors as early as the second race were rubbing cocaine on their gums to deaden the pain of competing in Henri Desgrange's "death marches" as the unsupported riders called them.

It is always sad when our sports heroes disappoint us. We tend to forget they are also human with feet of clay and the frailties that affect and afflict us all. I was a huge fan of Marco Pantani and found myself actually standing up before the television, cheering and waving my encouragement as he lofted up the mountains after recovering from his horrific head-on crash into a wrong-way vehicle that had entered the closed course. Of course, time showed he was a major doper and he died from his addictions, sad and alone in a hotel room. A broken man who had once ridden like an angel now rides with them.

I hope the real truth will come out about Lance and however the chips fall, will serve to improve the sport and make for a more level, truly fair and even playing field. I'd like to go beyond doping controls and make the entire World Championship (including the Tdf, the Giro d'Italia and all the other major races) a spec sport, with competitors riding equipment as nearly identical as can be. Looking at competitive swimming, the invention of better and faster suits divided competitors into Haves and Have Nots and records set with them were as artificial as if the winners had doped. I think we need to return to the basics in such sports so once again the human element and true physical and mental/tactical prowess are the prime determinants of victory. I'd pay to watch that!

In the meantime, no matter our own passionate opinions, the world will have to wait for full adjudication of Lance's case, and what will be will be. Until then, by any legal standard he must be assumed innocent until guilt is proved.

I love the title of this thread, because it causes us to think deeply about the most influential or important athlete of all time, and not just cyclists. Of course, the argument can be made there is no one "greatest", and that leaves it all open for speculation. I've so enjoyed reading the posts here!

Far from the most important, one of my favorites is Francois Faber, the first non-French rider to win the Tour de France in 1909 (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Faber ). Actually, he was French to the core, having been born and raised and lived most of his life in Colombe, a suburb of Paris. He was a Luxumbourger by virtue of his father's nationality. Still, his victory broke the French hold on their own race, and gave others hope for victory. My research to date shows Faber always rode "clean" and was well-liked by his competitors who regarded him as a fair sportsman. As far as I can tell, his only "performance enhancer" was a musette bag full of cold pork chops which he ate by the bagful as he rode well into the night on the much longer stages of those days. When WWI arrived, he volunteered as a member of the French Foreign Legion and was killed by a sniper's shot as he left the trenches. There is some debate as to whether his end came as he stood and cheered as he read a letter from his wife detailing the arrival of their newborn, or whether he was cut down while carrying a wounded comrade to safety. In any case, there was not the faintest hint of a taint or blemish on his record, and that was surely nice to see.

All the best,

Dan.

triaesthete

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2012, 01:50:43 am »
"I long for the days when that was not the case, when true athletic ability was the prime determinant of performance, results, and victory. Or I did, until I read that TdF competitors as early as the second race were rubbing cocaine on their gums to deaden the pain of competing in Henri Desgrange's "death marches" as the unsupported riders called them."

Dan, this was the nub of cycling's close association with doping. It was so hard doping was necessary to just to get by. Until the 60's most professionals were paid by the race and had to race continuously and year round to put bread on the table. There was very little support in terms of career, training, physio. diet etc.  It was a HARD day job, probably on a par with mining coal by hand. Many former pros went back to farm or factory work after short careers and anecdotal evidence suggests many died prematurely. This sort of doping was survival, not cheating.

I think it was Jacques Anquetil who said he raced once without drugs and it was so unpleasant that he didn't care to do it again!

Since the 80's the sport has seen a transition to moneyed professionalism  (a la tennis, golf, football etc) but  the doping culture has been slower to change and been subject to new financial driving factors in it's evolution. By now it should be dead but it would be hard to argue the exact time this should have happened. 1990??

However, if we were to take the athleticism of the topic to include all physical achievement and feats of endurance then I would argue for Robert Scott, Ernie Shackleton and their men as having set the bar for others to reach in terms of overcoming human limitations.

Ian


Danneaux

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2012, 03:18:49 am »
A well-written post, Ian, and some nice observations, particularly...
Quote
if we were to take the athleticism of the topic to include all physical achievement and feats of endurance then I would argue for Robert Scott, Ernie Shackleton and their men as having set the bar for others to reach in terms of overcoming human limitations.
Oh, yes! Particularly with regard to Shackleton. I was fortunate to have a high school literature teacher introduce me to the book _Endurance_, and from there I caught "Shackleton fever" and read everything I could about him. I still cannot imagine how he and member of his crew managed to survive. Though I've never experienced anything remotely similar to their trials, sometimes when riding in a strong headwind, I'll think about how the wind drove some of his men temporarily mad and it inspires me anew. It is absolutely incredible how people can, well, endure against tremendous odds and survive. Amazing.

I think you made a really good point about hard men coming from hard lives going into a hard sport and then...back to hard lives again. It must have seemed hopeless at times, when the effort was ceaseless and only the venues changed. You put it well when you said, "This sort of doping was survival, not cheating".

Best,

Dan.

Fred A-M

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2012, 12:43:34 pm »
Apologies for being like a dog with a bone on my all too infrequent visits, but as the thread started with Armstrong, who presumably doesn't want the endless catalogue of evidence to come out into the open. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19364384

Seems that he'll be stripped of his 7 TDF Titles - in my mind that isn't punishment enough for the endless litany of lies that he's peddled and the wealth he's accumulated from systematically cheating.....for others to judge whether he's "morally spineless" I guess.   
 

jags

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2012, 01:37:01 pm »
still claims he's innocent ;)

Fred A-M

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2012, 02:06:00 pm »
Then he should fight his innocence, regardless of whether he belives he's being subject to the greatest witch-hunt since McCarthy.  That he's being charged as a doping ring-leader sounds closer to the mark for me.  I don't think there can now be any real doubt as to his guilt give he's given up the legal fight.   

Interestingly Jan Ulrich finished 2nd to him 3 times, (also to Bjarne Riis and Pantani, both admitted dopers), meaning that he could have theoretically won the Tour 6 times had there been consistency in dealing with doping cases......that he was tainted by doping allegations himself, with all post 2005 achievements having been wiped from the record books, doesn't particularly help his case though.  Other new TDF winners courtesy of impending revision of TDF results will be Alex Zulle, Joseba Beloki, Andreas Kloden and Ivan Basso. 
 

Relayer

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2012, 02:37:16 pm »
When I was a kid I was told that it was the taking part that mattered, not winning.  So long as you tried your hardest, you could hold your head high, with pride.  Sadly, I think those days are gone, nowadays it is all about winning, nothing else matters; therefore cheats can delude themselves that they have done something great.

Most of my life my sporting heros were football players (soccer players for our American friends) however nowadays I can hardly bear to watch a match what with all the underhand tactics against opponents, diving to the ground and rolling around in feigned agony, and various feints to con match officials.

I still watch a lot of sport on TV, and sometimes see some unbelievable performances - but it is often in the back of my mind that it may be years before we find out if it was really something special or if something sinister was at play.

Such a shame I can't get so excited about it anymore.

il padrone

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2012, 03:05:13 pm »
Other new TDF winners courtesy of impending revision of TDF results will be Alex Zulle, Joseba Beloki, Andreas Kloden and Ivan Basso. 


All have been previously tainted by doping I believe. Awarding the 7 TdF winners could become quite a challenge I reckon.

Danneaux

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #54 on: August 24, 2012, 05:47:45 pm »
Hi All!

I've always admired the team domestique, a role requiring incredible sacrifice for a team that is often out-of-sight, many kilometers ahead. Such seemingly lowly tasks as ferrying water to the rest of the team, giving up one's bike, or serving as sacrificial point-man for a lead-out are part and parcel of the role and are really vital to success, but virtually guarantee a domestique will never end his three weeks of duty with any but the lowest official standing. Talk about sacrifice for sport, for team, for leader!

I find it interesting that many of the highest ideals of Sport are typified among those who are least likely to win and who receive the least glory and recognition. "Vive le domestique! Celebre l'lantern rouge!" (which, if GoogleTranslate got it right, roughly means "Long live the servant! The famous red lantern!"

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 06:14:04 pm by Danneaux »

JimK

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2012, 06:18:44 pm »
I think it happens in every human endeavor, that the fame and glory don't really go to those who contribute or accomplish the greatest feats. The pursuit of fame and glory become ends in themselves and then all the publicity stunts etc. begin. Of course nowadays it has gone so far that we have celebrities whose basis for fame is a complete mystery.

The whole concept of "the greatest" is a bit of a delusion. Competition can be a great spur for accomplishment and also a basis for some exciting entertainment. But the published rankings are always a bit of a facade. Lance played the publicity game.. once a person has turned their own life into theater, the facade takes on its own life.

How athletics turns into circus... certainly the audience has a role too. It's our attention flows and flutters the colorful banners on the big top. The key to defusing the whole explosive scene is to stop paying for its construction, to stop paying attention!
 


JimK

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Fred A-M

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #57 on: October 10, 2012, 07:45:05 pm »
The above is very logical in my opinion, no great surprises.

Equally, no great surprise in the latest Armstrong installment, other than the statements seem to become more and more damming, and weight of evidence even more overwhelming. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19903716

 

Fred A-M

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2012, 09:00:13 pm »
Very last word on Armstrong, promise!

Does anyone on this forum still believe he is innocent or has been mistreated?  

His words "We like our credibility" in referring to Landis almost struck me as being the simultaneously most arrogant and hollow words ever uttered by a sportsman the very moment I read them.

Where is it now I wonder?

I feel truly sorry for the army of fans that he defrauded over the years.   However, In dealing with the individual who has misused power more than any other in causing damaging the image of the sport, the "self-inflated blazers" at USADA should be firmly congratulated for their steps in restoring credibility to the sport.  

Now it will be the UCI's turn, although it seems that some of their "self-inflated blazers" will have to fall on their sacrificial swords as part of that process - given that Armstrong's power to corrupt seemingly extended to the very heart of cycling's governing body!  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19954565

These are good days for the sport, very good indeed.   Long may it continue.  

    
  
 

Fred A-M

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Re: Most important athlete of all-time?
« Reply #59 on: October 29, 2013, 11:35:15 pm »
LeMond's viewpoint on Armstrong's capabilities! LeMond's words, not mine! :-)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/24628728