Most important athlete of all-time?

[Danneaux]

My, Fred, this has lots of implications for Armstrong and the rest of the peloton who were found guilty of doping (and those who did/were not).

If we accept LeMond's premise that Lance was a "top-30 rider at best", than the effects of doping are truly astounding -- and must exact a terrible toll on human physiology. Makes me wonder if doping helped precipitate his cancer....

Just read an article earlier this week about the doping of racing pigeons in Belgium: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24658278 Any chance of stuffing the Doping Genie back in the bottle? Where will it stop?

Best,

Dan. (...who dearly wishes the world of Sport could be uniformly "clean")

[Fred A-M]

Dan

I've heard that the Dutch cycling authorities have decided to act following one of their leading cyclists eating the winners garland on being presented with it ;-)

Seriously though, I don't underestimate the ability of doping to completely transform performance.  I met someone who had regular dealings with a French TDF rider by the name of Frederic Finot and had reasonably sure information that he was determined to race clean despite being put under a lot of pressure to do otherwise.   He finished the Tour twice (still an incredible achievement) in the bottom 10 if I recall rightly and claimed it was impossible to compete effectively without doping. 

There are very few riders acknowledged by other riders as definitely being clean, David Moncoutie three times winner of the Vuelta mountains competition probably the most notable.   Both of these riders are more important that Armstrong in my eyes.

I've no doubt that Lance's doping contributed to his cancer - all his other team-mates from his american team of that era have since died, apparently from doping induced ailments - but this was known well ahead of the big confession, and yet people still preferred to be duped than acknowledge the ever-present shadow of doping associations all around him. 

[rualexander]

.........I've no doubt that Lance's doping contributed to his cancer - all his other team-mates from his american team of that era have since died, apparently from doping induced ailments.......

This sounds like pure speculation.
And all of his team-mates have since died? Really? Is this the Motorola team you are talking about?

[Fred A-M]

This sounds like pure speculation.
And all of his team-mates have since died? Really? Is this the Motorola team you are talking about?

It sounds remarkable I know but I've definitely read this somewhere but can't unfortunately find the said article- I think from his early days (aged around 18) as part of a US student or olympic set-up, so pre-Motorola at a guess.

[Danneaux]

Could this be what you had in mind, Fred?
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/39997062/

Another interesting discussion on doping deaths in cycling is here:
http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=2823.0

Best,

Dan.

[Fred A-M]

Hi Dan

Neither of these I'm afraid - I wish I'd posted the link - I thought had - it was a fairly (unsurprisingly) hefty dossier of a life-long association (pre-admission) to duplicitous (as it turned out) misdemeanors!

Cheers

Fred

[ians]

another thing that I cannot forgive Lance Armstrong for, and I'm pretty sure this practice started with him, is the wearing of black socks.  Now call me old fashioned, but I'm pretty sure that you have to wear white socks if you are a serious competitive cyclist.  I saw someone out training today, full lycra kit, with black socks.  I had to look away.

Black socks are fine, at a pinch, if you're just going down the pub and didn't have time to change when you got in from the office, or perhaps when cycling to a funeral.
But not in a race please.  It's up there with white lycra shorts.  Somethings are just not meant to be.

ian

[Danneaux]

another thing that I cannot forgive Lance Armstrong for, and I'm pretty sure this practice started with him, is the wearing of black socks.

Full agreement, Ian! A tragedy for the Sport.

I did find out white socks (and perish the thought, white trainers...and a baseball cap, of course) are the Universal Marks of an American tourist in The Netherlands, where black socks and 3/4 pants with zip-off legs are the norm for bike-trekkers.

The pants aren't bad, but I'm keepin' m'white socks. I know they need washing when they turn grey.  

...And white lycra shorts? Just...ew. S'posed t'be black.

All the best,

Dan. (...who is adding this to his list of reasons for being Upset with Lance)