Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes

[David Simpson]

Andre --

That's a good point about the cost of the Rohloff. I was thinking about just the up-front cost. But in the long run, the Rohloff is actually cheaper.

If you honestly want a cheap drive system for your bike, then you should see if someone makes plastic chains and gears. Those would be cheap. However, they would need to be replaced fairly regularly (hourly?).    I'm being silly, but the point is that up-front cost cannot be considered alone.

- Dave

[jags]

Ah to be honest  hub geared bike's i just don't like they aint got soul ,there more like a town bike .where as the the old style racing bikes and todays more modern carbon  lovelys have  history ,
think greg lomond one of the greats  he rode carbon bikes.

im a roadie at heart .i will never do any adventure touring  so hub gears just don't interest me .so would i but a Thorn bike with Rohloff i doubt it very much,
but i would but a  audax or clubtour  both can take  panniers and bar bag  that will do this kid.
yis are getting to technical for my little brain so i'll bow out of this thread  .

jags.

[David Simpson]

(No, jags, don't leave.)

For me, I'm the opposite. I have never had an interest in skinny-tired lightweight bikes. I had a 3-speed (Sturmey-Archer) Raleigh as a kid/teenager, then got into mountain bikes in my teens. Lightweight road bikes always seemed too fragile for my liking. Fast, yes, but I've never cared about speed. I want to carry my gear and ride on any road or trail in any weather.

As for Thorn's business direction, it seems that they want to be the best touring bike manufacturer in the world, not the best over-all bike manufacturer in the  UK. They are focusing on a narrower market, but reaching the world through their online store. I'm on the west coast of Canada, and if it wasn't for their online store, I wouldn't have a Thorn. I'm in no position to visit SJS Bikes and browse their products in person.

- Dave

[JimK]

Yeah it doesn't make so much sense to compare "Rohloff vs derailleur". Apples to apples might be "IGH versus derailleur" or "Rohloff vs. Dura-Ace".

It seems that the derailleur market is splitting a bit between cheap and expensive. The cheap stuff is OK for light use and the expensive stuff is great for sports fans, but for hard practical use... I don't follow the market, so I don't know. It was my 7-speed brifter dying that got me looking for something that would last... not just the device itself, but a supply chain that understands that I like to ride my bike & I don't want to replace the transmission every five years to keep up with standards that are constantly changing.

[Danneaux]

If simplicity was the overall goal of a bike, and we removed any component that contained any hint of complexity, we would end up with walking stick.

Not quite a walking stick, but I have the luxury of an old road bike (1972 Windsor Professional/Cinelli lookalike I bought for the princely sum of USD$20 complete) and have Big Fun Plans™ for it when I can find the time.

Currently setup as a 2x5 10-sp with Campagnolo Nuovo Record equipment, it will soon become a Draisienne (walking bike/balance bike alternative to a skateboard or scooter 'cos I've always wanted to try one), then a Fixed Gear ('cos I miss riding one), to be followed by a 2-freewheeling cogset/1-2 chainring retro-direct drive* and then probably will be restored in something close to its present guise for longer-term use.

I've never had a similar "go-fast" bike before (it has no rack or mudguard eyelets and I'm not inclined to braze them on this one) and the low price allows for Play, which is both important and fun.

There's a number of drive schemes that have fallen by the wayside. Among them...
CambioGear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yweIWBC9-OA
Vyro Crankset: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toym0NTle5Q
Simkinetics SIVAT CVT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd2-vsTzd9E
Donthenko: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk4xzoDCVo0
Hycle (hydraulic): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmHcUqaDVYs
Glyde (modified treadle) drive (made by a friend of mine): http://www.halebikes.com/index.html
Premthuruthi ratchet drive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARXJ4M1kPCI
Hanna-Dean Drive System: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDH_OcepG4s
Slozeni RUNBIKE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1CWXoCBRxY
Wechner Chainless treadle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5w6VK7bA5E
Pendal hub-drive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_FvFIca9-U

The variations are endless.
Best,

Dan. (...who is not the Cycling Luddite he seems, just intrigued by past technology)

*Retro-Direct drive for a mind-blowing experience: Multiple gears with no changer. Two (non)Fixed Gears, one high and the other low. Pedal forward for drive in one gear, pedal backwards for an additional ratio in the other. Forward drive can be low or high depending on how you route the very long chain. Add two chainrings and a front mech, and you can get a total of 4 ratios. Madness! For a couple video examples, see:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfxncSJTraU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luQ3VRKZiN4

[David Simpson]

CambioGear
Vyro Crankset
Simkinetics SIVAT CVT
Donthenko
Hycle (hydraulic)
Glyde (modified treadle) drive
Premthuruthi ratchet drive
Hanna-Dean Drive System
Slozeni RUNBIKE
Wechner Chainless treadle
Pendal hub-drive

Quiz of the Day

What is the above list?

A. Evil monsters that fought Godzilla
B. Fictional machines in Jules Verne novels
C. Bicycle drive systems
D. All of the above

- Dave

p.s. Thanks for the informative posting, Dan.

[Bill C]

Are you guys -- Bill and Anto -- for real?

yup i'm for real i bought a xTc classic and a xTc fillet brazed frame in the Thorn sell out, why because i knew they were never going to make as good a bikes again for my needs
here is what sold me and here is why i think they should continue with mech bikes

Many of our customers say ... “I want an exciting lightweight cycle that I can go for a blast on in the summer evenings, that I can ride, lightly laden, over long distances briskly, and that I can also use for my annual touring holiday.” ... Well, this bike is for them! It will do all this and much, much more! If you want a good-mannered bike on which to cycle prodigious distances where ultimate comfort is more important than ultimate speed, then this is the perfect bike for the job. Don’t misunderstand, this is a very quick bike - one that encourages you to get out of the saddle and sprint up short climbs - but it is also very comfortable, especially over distance or over rough roads

[jags]

Andre is going to have some fun with those crankets  and videos  ..

Cheers Dave but  your probably taking the pee i don't mind i have a neck like steel and i like the craic.
Dave i ride with the local club mosly with the ladies and a few old  guys like meself but we love out cycling all ride top end carbon roadbikes ,i converted a few lads in the group to buy touring bikes a few years back ,they wouldn't buy Thorn because to expensive  3 went for Dawes super galaxy 1 has a cannondale  i was the only one with a thorn (sherpa) then audax 853.
but yeah been cycling lightweight bikes since i was 16  don't think i'll change now.

jags.
btw Dura ace and ultegra are bullitt proff i never had a problem in thousants of  miles .
message to Dan please get that spell check up and running this dictionary is falling apart and i still get the feckin spelling wrong.

[Danneaux]

Dan please get that spell check up and running

<nods> Request has been in for awhile, along with some others. Hopefully soon.

All the best,

Dan.

[il padrone]

shaft drive = Much less successful and accepted than the Rohloff 

so follow that reasoning and ?
rear mech and chain?  Much more successful and accepted than the Rohloff 

I don't think that I have denied this at ANY point 

Mass-market sales and public acceptance does not equal functional utility. I have mainly been talking about the great utility of the Rohloff....... for my particular uses.

[il padrone]

Ah to be honest  hub geared bike's i just don't like they aint got soul ,there more like a town bike .where as the the old style racing bikes and todays more modern carbon  lovelys have  history ,

Yeh.... hub gears. They ain't got no history 

[Bill C]

shaft drive = Much less successful and accepted than the Rohloff 

so follow that reasoning and ?
rear mech and chain?  Much more successful and accepted than the Rohloff 

I don't think that I have denied this at ANY point 

Mass-market sales and public acceptance does not equal functional utility. I have mainly been talking about the great utility of the Rohloff....... for my particular uses.

yawn, sorry i can't be bothered anymore

[il padrone]

There's a number of drive schemes that have fallen by the wayside. Among them...
CambioGear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yweIWBC9-OA
Vyro Crankset: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toym0NTle5Q
Simkinetics SIVAT CVT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd2-vsTzd9E
Donthenko: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk4xzoDCVo0
Hycle (hydraulic): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmHcUqaDVYs
Glyde (modified treadle) drive (made by a friend of mine): http://www.halebikes.com/index.html
Premthuruthi ratchet drive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARXJ4M1kPCI
Hanna-Dean Drive System: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDH_OcepG4s
Slozeni RUNBIKE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1CWXoCBRxY
Wechner Chainless treadle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5w6VK7bA5E
Pendal hub-drive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_FvFIca9-U

The variations are endless.

You may have forgotten the Deal-drive, Dan 

[jags]

Ah to be honest  hub geared bike's i just don't like they aint got soul ,there more like a town bike .where as the the old style racing bikes and todays more modern carbon  lovelys have  history ,

Yeh.... hub gears. They ain't got no history 

hasen't improved much 

[David Simpson]

hasen't improved much 

Actually, there has been a huge improvement. My hub has the full enclosing case, not just the half shown in the diagram. That means that the gears and ball bearings are protected from the elements, and not visible as in the diagram.

[Edit: In case anyone thinks I'm serious, I am well aware of the concept of a cutaway diagram. I'm just playing jags' game. ]

- Dave