Author Topic: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes  (Read 64126 times)

jags

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #75 on: December 06, 2015, 11:11:53 PM »
Ah i reckon you offended nobody Bill sure it's all only bike talk and if we can't have the craic arguing about that then god help us .
mind u that john fella started all this i think he should be banned  :o
only joking .

night all and yes i still hate rohloff.

anto.

Danneaux

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #76 on: December 06, 2015, 11:25:26 PM »
Quote
I'll wait for my reprimand from Dan if i have offended/blasphemed
So far, so good, but I'm watching both sides and will step in if things become personal rather than directed at the relative merits of each gearing system.

Personally, I own bikes of both sorts and love them equally. I own "only" one Rohloff -- the Nomad. It's sealed construction has been well-suited for my expeditionary use in heavy mud and alkali dust, and it is nice to have no worries about chain-suck or a down-hanging derailleur cage while riding cross-country through sagebrush and other things that could foul a derailleur. That said, neither kind of drivetrain has held me back, nor proven superior or inferior in *all* circumstances.

A major reason I prefer *older* (5-, 6-, 7-, and 8-speed half-step) derailleur systems *and* the Rohloff is for extended service life and reduced maintenance and replacement intervals. I can burn through several complete 9-sp derailleur drivetrains (chain, 2-3 chainrings, and the most-used cogs on a riveted cassette) in the course of a summer. Over time, this is more costly to me than a Rohloff drivetrain would be (longer-lived thanks to a straight chainline, stainless chainring and cog, and no chain deflection or tensioner). Similarly (but not to the same extent), my older derailleur gears are also long-lived (thanks to thicker cogs and chainrings and half-step-and-granny gearing that results in my most-used combinations having almost no chain deflection and near-equal use of the middle and high chainrings to spread the wear). By happy circumstance, my Nomad's 26x2.0 tires coupled with 36x17t gearing results in almost identical gearing to my favorite 15-sp half-step on one of my randonneur bikes. The Rohloff's high isn't as high as the one I don't use on the derailleur bike (but need for the lower gearing combinations to work) and I have two lower combinations which I use regularly while touring with a load.

Both systems work well for those who own them. Derailleur gears have been around a long time, and so have IGH (interally-geared hubs...think Sturmey-Archer), and each have proven remarkably long-lived given most riders' general lack of maintenance and drivetrains that are usually exposed at least in part to the weather. Having ground both drivetrains through really severe conditions, I firmly believe the Rohloff has the edge in one regard: It will work with less maintenance and fusswhen used continuously in truly mucky conditions where it is impractical to perform regular service or cleanup. In similar conditions, my derailleur bikes also do fine, but for a shorter period and they require religious maintenance. At home the difference is slight. On an extended tour across dry lake beds (and especially if there is rain) the Rohloff wins this one category hands-down for me in my use.

For me, it is "horses for courses", vive la différence, and you pays your money and takes your lumps.

Best to all,

Dan. (...who is watching this spirited debate with great interest)

Bill C

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #77 on: December 06, 2015, 11:30:22 PM »
Hi Dan

spirited debate is over for me, people get iffy and it's time to call it a day

atb Bill

Danneaux

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #78 on: December 07, 2015, 01:08:47 AM »
Alrighty, then...we've just descended from the objective to the personal, so I've locked the topic for now and removed the subsequent posts, which added nothing to the topic under discussion.

I'll open it up again in a bit. Meanwhile, it would do us all good to back away from our keyboards and go for for a ride on whatever we happen to have. Last I checked, all involve pedals somehow turning a rear wheel. What comes between matters naught so long as the birds sing, the breezes are soft, and we get out in the world on this wonderful machine called a bicycle.

All the best,

Dan.

Danneaux
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« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 08:56:27 AM by Danneaux »

Danneaux

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #79 on: December 07, 2015, 01:38:02 AM »
Annnnd, we're back.  :)

Topic open again.

Best,

Dan.
Danneaux,
Thorn Cycling Forum Administrator

Peejay

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #80 on: December 07, 2015, 09:45:03 AM »
Come on guys....this is not a war!

Some like derailleurs some like Rohloffs - both systems work great and if it works for you - no problem.

At the end of the day what matters is we're all Thorn fans and enjoy cycling.

Pete.

jags

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #81 on: December 07, 2015, 10:10:00 AM »
my daughter asked me just  now what i wanted for Christmas ,i told her either a thorn raven sports tour or club tour  ,when i told her the price  we had a good auld laugh .
sure you might as well dream dad. ;D ;D...

wonder would i stool her for a tent i have my eye on. 8)

jags.

leftpoole

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #82 on: December 07, 2015, 10:55:42 AM »
My first post repeated!Hello,
For what it is worth, here is an opinion on Thorn cycles!
Thorn with Andy Blance the main 'designer' decided that Rohloff equipped bikes were/are the future for them. I know this because Andy told me so himself.
After extensive holidaying (oops research) in South America arrived a Rohloff hubbed cycle built like a tank! The bikes whilst slightly refined are in my opinion over engineered and still really pretty heavily built.
Now that most of the World's expedition cyclists have been and looked, purchased and gone, my own feeling is that Thorn should reduce Rohloff building and concentrate on a future for derailleur cycles for which most of the UK at least (plus the Emerald part of the Isle) use!
Rohloff for certain riding, OK but the rest of us ride and indeed love derailleur powered (?) cycles especially Thorn.
Also the build of the frames could be concentrated on with a more luxurious look/feel to them. More carbon forks as after all most people ride with carbon forks and seatposts?
Just my own opinion but I do know a great deal about bicycles and cycling, even though limited by health issues these days.
Best to all,
John

jags

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #83 on: December 07, 2015, 03:40:57 PM »
Eh exsqueeze  me but you can't do that that's cheating . :( >:(

energyman

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #84 on: December 07, 2015, 04:50:59 PM »
I like hub gears of any sort 'cos I can never remember to get into the right gear at traffic junctions.  OK so it's an age thing.
Horses for courses.

jags

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #85 on: December 07, 2015, 05:16:19 PM »
never happen with a rear mech. ;)

Huernie

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #86 on: December 07, 2015, 06:19:29 PM »

As for your perception that "No one seems to talk about how good it is to ride with", I honestly don't think that is true.  I talk about how good the Rohloff is to ride with all the time, and so do many others here. It's just that people notice bad news (or in the absence of bad news the gossip of schadenfreude, like much of the ignorant nonsense we can see even here sometimes when people get stir crazy in the winter) much more than good news.

The point I was making, with the exception of this forum ( I agree with you there), my 'real life' conversations when someone (who has invariably never seen one 'in the flesh' before) spots my hub always seem to focus on the "Expense", and "What will you do when it goes wrong?" The only country I have toured through that has been the exception to this is Germany where no-one bats an eye lid at what you ride. Funny enough when I took my bike (Koga Signature) to the Rohloff service centre, the owner had no interest in my bike (except to look at the hub issue) but positively grew tumescent when he saw my wife's Sherpa! "This is the first time I have ever touched a Thorn!""Look at the design of the forks!" Etc, etc...
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 06:22:39 PM by Huernie »

jags

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #87 on: December 07, 2015, 06:38:47 PM »
those germans haven't a clue there just lucky ;).
so was he impressed by the forks or the whole design of the sherpa.

Huernie

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #88 on: December 07, 2015, 06:50:16 PM »
The whole thing. He was a big fan of Thorn bikes in general, which is quite something as the the range of nice machines he stocked was impressive.

John Saxby

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #89 on: December 07, 2015, 08:06:40 PM »
FWIW, my five cents' worth (use'ta be two cents, but with the shrinking value of our petrodollar 'n' all…) on Thorn, Rohloffs, and derailleurs:

1)   What I like most about riding my Raven-mit-Rohloff, is that I rarely think about the hub -- I just change gears, sometimes 2 or 3 at a time, and it always gives me the gear I want, no fuss, no confidence-sapping doubt, nuthin'. It just works.

      Occasionally I do think about it, usually when coasting downhill in 13th or 14th, making a terrific ratchet-clackety noise like a large swarm of African bees (or like a high-end Cervélo road bike) without the fear and loathing that a large swarm of African bees would provoke.

      And just the other day I thought about it, too:  Rolling along beside the river in 11th gear, alone on a bike path in early December :-), I was trying to figure out what made more noise--the hub, my 'glider, or my Marathon Supremes. I decided that the hum of the tires covered everything else.

2)   As for Thorn bikes in general, my experience is limited.  I've ridden a few thousand ams on my Raven, and would have no hesitation in recommending it as a touring bike.  The Nomad is obviously a well well made expedition bike, but more than I could use.

      Thorn has made a bet on Rohloffs, but they're not alone in doing so -- see Peter White's site, for example: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/index.html  It's possible that that market niche will expand in the medium term, if & as cycle-touring grows, with a nudge from retiring boomers.  Thorn's bikes are hardly bargains, but they are good value, compared with the trekking bikes sold in Germany on the one hand, and with the products of custom or specialty firms in North America.

       The Rohloff is not the whole story, however.  Thorn makes some quality frame components as well. My Eclipse touring bike has carbon forks, which now have 12-plus seasons on them, and although I plan to use the Eclipse for day rides, I am not at all keen to test the forks' durability any further.  I'm thinking to make the Eclipse a rehab project, starting with a pair of Thorn 853 forks for the Mercury. (Fork #5 in the Mega-brochure.) The dimensions fit my Eclipse nicely, and the lightweight steel forks have threaded tabs for fenders, as well. (Currently, I'm using clamp-on Planet Bike plastic fenders, which sorta-work, but not really, as PB's "hybrid" variants are too short for what I want, so I've modded a rear fender, etc., etc., and why am I doing this, just on account of carbon forks anyway?)

      The idea of rehabbing the Eclipse with a nice steel fork is appealing, partly because it lets me take advantage of Thorn's long steerer tube to raise my bars a couple of cms. The Mercury fork will accept my Avid canti's, though I might get a spiffy new set, Mavic A119 or Alex Adventurer rims will work for my purposes, and I can keep my 35 mm Marathon Racers, which I enjoy. With the addition of a proper front fender, I think all that will make the front end of the Eclipse a whole lot more functional and comfortable, and I won't have the nagging "What if…?" question at the back of my mind as I approach next spring's crop of frost heaves, cracks, and potholes.

      Less appealing is the prospect of finding a derailleur/chainring/cogset/shifter package that works when I need it, though I've resigned myself to the expense of swapping out my current setup, the fourth such change in ten seasons.  I think I've learned enough to know what I want, though whether that's still on the market remains to be seen.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 08:10:09 PM by John Saxby »