Author Topic: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes  (Read 55282 times)

Bill C

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #135 on: December 09, 2015, 09:35:51 pm »
hi Dave
i wasn't suggesting they stop what they are doing and start again from the UK, that would make no sense
 but an arragment with a builder to build one off custom frames to the thorn design, paid for upfront by the customer
it would keep loyal and spendy customers happy, not cost Thorn in wages, Thorn would make some coin for arranging it and allowing the use of the design and maybe keep a tradition alive, Handbuilt in the UK

yeah i know cloud cuckoo ;)

David Simpson

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #136 on: December 09, 2015, 09:54:28 pm »
i wasn't suggesting they stop what they are doing and start again from the UK, that would make no sense
Yes, I didn't think you were suggesting that.

but an arragment with a builder to build one off custom frames to the thorn design, paid for upfront by the customer
it would keep loyal and spendy customers happy, not cost Thorn in wages, Thorn would make some coin for arranging it and allowing the use of the design and maybe keep a tradition alive, Handbuilt in the UK
Interesting idea. I'm sure Thorn would go for it if the price was right. :)

- Dave

Andre Jute

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #137 on: December 09, 2015, 10:59:57 pm »
Thorn went out of the business of beautiful handmade frames with all deliberation, and signalled that they were permanently out of it when they let the brazier go. They wouldn't have done that unless it had become either unprofitable or simply not an effective way to apply limited manpower. Why should they ever, after successfully realigning their business towards greater volume, want to go back to single custom bikes for a very limited market?

Nor is that idea of Thorn being intermediaries for customers wanting a one-off custom bike ever likely to fly. Think about it. Thorn would in effect be offering a guarantee on someone else's idea of a good frame (whereas the Thorn idea is that they have the best touring bike designer in the business, Andy Blance). That's a sure loser. But, even worse, the manhours wasted on ditzing around with a custom bike customer, and supervision of the frame maker, could soon eat up more in salary and associated overheads than anything they could conceivably charge for the service.

It would be super if it could be made to work -- I'd be a customer, willing to pay for the privilege of not having to sort the clowns from the braziers -- but there is definitely a limit to how much I would pay for the service, considering that the upcharge isn't going into the bike but into someone's pocket.

But that illustrates the key problem. With the good braziers -- say Bob Jackson -- you don't need help, you can deal direct with every chanee of achieving satisfaction; with the bad braziers (I can name some) you couldn't pay me enough to deal with them for you, and I can't see why Thorn should take a different view.

***

Those Thorn tubes aren't nameless: they're Thorn tubes, developed to Andy Blance's specifications.

Bill C

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #138 on: December 09, 2015, 11:19:37 pm »
Hi Andre
tell John, as  i can't think of another way he'll get what he want's   :(
as for me i have enough new/old  Thorns to keep me going for years, i'll post some pics of work in progress sometime
it's a bit slow but i had to buy a 3hp compressor and all the kit to get up and running, had enough of aerosols

btw dn6 was made to on ones specs that doesn't mean ought to me either, Reynolds i have heard of and can't think of a reason not to want in a build, is thorn tubing better than reynolds? i don't know that either i'm not an expert in such things, i just like to ride nice bikes as often as i can


edit

just as a thought,
a simple menu system would be all they need, it wouldn't need to be a full custom build,choice of model, set sizes, choice of tubing, choice of joining said tubes( fillet, lugs, tig), choice of finish
find a frame builder who won't steal the designs, and has a half decent name, pay your money wait alloted time

yes i know you  can go elsewhere but Thorn designs have a reputation many firms pay good money to try and convince us they have but don't
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 12:32:41 am by Bill C »

il padrone

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #139 on: December 10, 2015, 04:47:03 am »
btw dn6 was made to on ones specs that doesn't mean ought to me either, Reynolds i have heard of and can't think of a reason not to want in a build, is thorn tubing better than reynolds? i don't know that either i'm not an expert in such things, i just like to ride nice bikes as often as i can

From an old thread on "Sherpa tubing specs":

969 is Thorn's 4130 Cro-mo tube name.  Does anyone know what the tube thicknesses are?

Yes, 969.  Or to be precise 0.9-0.6-0.9
Now what are you going to do with that information?

Reynolds 531 is Mang-moly I believe, and 525 is the Cro-moly tubing.

leftpoole

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #140 on: December 10, 2015, 07:09:59 am »
hi John
the topic is never going to stay in a straight line, it is broadly going in the direction it started in
i have no more input i have said my bit
the only thing i didn't touch on is you want more bling, the only bling a Thorn needs is the stainless headbadge that they ditched, bad move, who wouldn't pay an extra few quid to have that back, POS stick on badge  ::)

btw not sure why you posted your last comment as this has been one of the better threads in ages, and your not happy with it LOL

perhaps it should of been split again and your original post would have died

btw i agree about handmade and British i have put it in my posts in this thread, some might say Thorn have sold out and are just another boutique brand now with just a vestige of their former glory days


 i bought a xTc classic and a xTc fillet brazed frame in the Thorn sell out, why because i knew they were never going to make as good a bikes again for my needs



Hello,
I am not unhappy with the thread, just a bit miffed it strayed from my original posting.
I agree it has been a long run, praise indeed for my posting surely?
All the best,
John

leftpoole

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #141 on: December 10, 2015, 07:15:22 am »
Yes but they have to make money, and Thorn have chosen to occupy the niche that is the Taiwanese batch factory handbuilt touring bike (either heavy duty Sherpa/Raven/Nomad, or lighter duty ClubTour/Audax, plus a few Tandems).

If you want handbuilt in the UK, there are others who can supply that niche, but the volumes are much lower and the costs much higher (probably at least double on the price of a frameset).

They used to do more colours (most frames were available in four colours at least), but unfortunately only two colours in each model seems to be the option now, presumably for economic reasons, cost of ordering more batches, stock costs, etc.

Personally I think they have the balance between Rohloff and derailleur bikes about right just now.

As for bling, presumably most Thorn customers don't really want bling on their touring bikes.

Presumably Thorn know their market, sales figures, and customers better than the handful of us who frequent this forum.


Hello,
I agree with what Thorn are now doing!
I just do not like it and would prefer home built brazed rather than tig frames.
I actually own other brand bike (s) and whilst tig welded look more brazed and the paint rather than powder coating is fabulous.
John

leftpoole

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #142 on: December 10, 2015, 07:16:37 am »

Presumably Thorn know their market, sales figures, and customers better than the handful of us who frequent this forum.

yes and that's why made in taiwan , no name tubing, and stick in a hoff is the new mantra, easy money


Excellent!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

leftpoole

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #143 on: December 10, 2015, 07:19:43 am »
Handmade bikes seem to get rarer and rarer. The increasing price of skilled workers is probably a big piece of this, plus automation keeps building better stuff at lower prices. This is a general global manufacturing trend.

The above lines are from someones posting.

My reply:- In UK there are an ever increasing number of framebuilders and there is even an annual Show in Bristol and awards!
Bespoke Show UK.
John

leftpoole

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #144 on: December 10, 2015, 07:22:17 am »
i called it no name tubing as all the older ,dare i say proper Thorns very proudly told you of the reynolds tubes used in the frame,

i have to be really careful as i really am not trying to denigrate the new Thorns,
But John has talked about better/nicer/more upmarket frames like they used to be.
 i'm just adding a voice that says i agree the older kit is much more desirable
a lot would probably shell out the extra to get a Thorn like you used to
if they can out source mass produced frames, then at a cost to the buyer is there no UK frame builder they could trust with their design to make them?
yes it's going to be expensive it always was but more people spend big money on their dream bike than ever before
they even spend it on disposable carbon bikes  ;)


Hear hear!

il padrone

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #145 on: December 10, 2015, 11:09:12 am »
Hello,
I agree with what Thorn are now doing!
I just do not like it and would prefer home built brazed rather than tig frames.
I actually own other brand bike (s) and whilst tig welded look more brazed and the paint rather than powder coating is fabulous.

I would have much preferred a hand-built, Australian-made, crafted timber custom dining setting for  our family room. We ended up with a Chinese timber setting, crafted from our very own Victorian Mountain-ash timber. It was the $5,000-6,000 price tag that sent us away from local furniture makers.

The Chinese setting was $800, even with all the shipping.

It's all about manufacturing cost versus quality.

Cheap/good/light - choose any two.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 11:14:01 am by il padrone »

John Saxby

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #146 on: December 10, 2015, 04:53:55 pm »
+1 for il padrone's summary of the arithmetic.

I can offer several examples from my own recent experience:

1)   Researching the various options for a Rohloff-based touring bike a couple of years ago, I looked into buying a custom bike from True North Cycles, a small and respected manufacturer near Toronto. One of their custom machines would have cost me about C$6,000.

      I bought a Thorn Raven frameset, sourced hubs and lighting online from Europe, other components from UK and US suppliers, my LBS build the bike. Total cost was about C$4,000, ⅔ of True North's figure.

      Other price points were a complete Raven from SJSC, about C$5500; and the same for a Tout Terrain from Peter White in New Hampshire.

      For me, the choice was obvious, and I would say that my Raven is very good value.  It's quality gear, but at $4,000, it's expensive. I was fortunate to be able to finance it by selling an old, restored and hence desirable motorcycle.

      A further note on the True North bikes:  They're fine-looking machines.  Earlier this year, I met a guy from Ottawa riding one -- we were both on a ferry near of all places, Auckland, NZ.  I've also been in touch with a guy who rode his across Canada this past summer. He lives a couple of hundred kms south of Ottawa, and decided to buy the True North because its maker is three hours' drive from where he lives. Reasonable enough, but for me, not enough to spend an additional $2,000. [I did learn from him, however, that there's a Rohloff repair specialist in Toronto, whose shop is a short distance from my daughter's flat  :-)  ]

2)    The arithmetic plays out in similar fashion in other examples, unrelated to Rohloff hubs.  In the past few days, I have been pricing a renewal of my ti-framed Eclipse touring bike, which I now use for (slightly) faster (if less comfortable) day rides.  First on the order of business was a set of steel forks to replace the slightly scuffed carbon forks of the Eclipse.

       I used as a reference point the Mercury 853 forks from SJSC, £240 (less VAT, plus P & P), about C$500.

       I then discovered that Velo Orange offers an entire frameset for their Pass Hunter rando bike for about C$700 (plus P & P). Thorn's product quickly became only a reference point for dimensions and weight.

       My research ended with better news still.  My LBS makes and sells their own brand of rando and cross bikes, "Steelwool". Happens that the guys had a bare set of forks in older unsold stock, and that I can get those for $100 -- painted by (read this and weep, you lot) Guiseppe Marinoni's shop in Montréal.

       The historical footnote here is that, when they first conceived and designed their Steelwool bikes 10 or 12 years ago, they priced making their frames here in Ottawa.  Well…  Home-made framesets would have cost about $1500 each; products of comparable quality from Taiwan, landed in Ottawa, about ⅓ of that.  Guess which option won out? 

        There's no mystery here. That arithmetic is the product of much larger production runs in Taiwan, depreciation of capital equipment required to make the farms and forks, and of course cheaper labour; and of under- or un-costed CO2 emissions in both production and shipping. If and when the latter are included in the final price of frames and forks, local frame makers here or in the UK, for example, might get some protection from the currently lower production costs in Taiwan.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 04:55:37 pm by John Saxby »

Bill C

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #147 on: December 10, 2015, 05:20:43 pm »
-1 for his summary

i can go on ebay and spend £2400 on some carbon frame
i can buy a nomad ss and hoff back wheel £1500 or a full build what £2500ish for a tasty set up? (if figures are out sorry i have never looked at a nomad, as explained before, i'm in Devon all we have is 2 coasts and never ending hills between )
neither interest me in the least but what makes you think because i prefer a mech that i wouldn't spend £1500 on a pukka handmade frame set after all it's no more than your end up paying buying into a Taiwan frame and the hoff wheel
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 05:28:58 pm by Bill C »

John Saxby

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #148 on: December 10, 2015, 06:35:25 pm »
Bill, I was describing how the the arithmetic worked, and works, for me.  I don't know you, and know nothing about what you might or might not want, and/or would pay for.

For me, two things came into play, and remain.

The critical factor is that, after 10 years of headaches with the derailleurs and cassettes on my der-equipped touring bike, I wanted no part of a similarly equipped touring bike, hand built or not. (As a reference point, I could have bought a couple of well-equipped Surly LHTs for the price of my Raven. When I started thinking about the ratios and whatnot, and the prospect of missed gears on a steep climb, the onset of the familiar headache ruled out even a 'what-if?' comparison…)

The second is the absolute cost of hand built frames, no matter the drive system.  We're retired, and live on fixed incomes, which happily are adequate for our needs and a fair portion of our wants.  For things above that, like a Raven, I've been able to sell an asset.  (Ditto for the rehab of my Eclipse, now converted away from touring duty.)  In the absence of that option, I certainly wouldn't have a Rohloff-equipped bike, and equally certainly, I wouldn't be looking at touring with any enthusiasm or confidence.  Happily, the Raven gives me  loadsa both  :-)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 06:37:27 pm by John Saxby »

Bill C

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Re: Whither the future: Thorn's derailleur vs Rohloff bikes
« Reply #149 on: December 10, 2015, 07:29:29 pm »
Hi John
i'm not loaded by any means, but i have got to the stage in life that i want fewer bikes but much nicer quality, and am prepared to save/pay for it
i'm in the market probably for one last frame, it will more than likely have to be hand made as i am 100% sure on what i want a stainless xtc classic but beefed up a little for disk brakes(avid bb7's)
i'll probably strip mine down sometime and send it away to be replicated as near to original as poss
it's taken me years to hone down what i need for my locale, tried road bikes but they are useless round here, tried mtb with slicks,my sherpa as lovely as it is is a pig on hills, my klein attitude is the nearest i got to perfect for the hills but it couldn't carry anything unless i used my bob trailer  ::)
the xtc is fun to ride the hills on but i really need more brakes