Danneaux's Nomad

[lewis noble]

Hello Dan - you mentioned a few posts ago that you had liked the Axa Defender as fitted to the Sherpa you had - did it fit easily? Looking at my medium frame sized Sherpa (530S), there is not a lot of room around the seatstays area with the V brakes, rack mounting lugs on the seatstays etc - did you find it needed a separate / additional bracket or did it go straight on??

Thanks - by all means refer me back to earlier posts on this theme. 

Lewis

[Danneaux]

Hi Lewis!

Unfortunately, when the Forum upgraded to new software, the old links broke. I have found the links relevant to your question and have repaired the cross-references so they should work as you click them. The old thumbnail files for attached photos did not make the trip to new software, so the thumbnails have been replaced by generic icons. Click on them to open the photos. Most have some corruption, but should be clear enough to see what they portray.

Basically, the Sherpa fit boiled down to this:
1) Unlike the Nomad, the Sherpa (like the RavenTour and later Raven) has seatstays small in diameter than those on the Nomad and they are closer together. This alone solves many of the fit problems I ran into putting the AXA Defender on the Nomad.

2) I found tire clearance adequate with 2.0 Duremes, but that is the maximum. The opening of the Defender is 50mm. The part near the tire sidewalls is 63mm. 63-50=13/2-6.5mm maximum clearance per side, provided the ring-lock is fitted in height to mirror the tire profile. This proved fine in my usual use with 2.0 tires, but could become problematic in heavy mud (as I sometimes encounter with wet desert dry lake playa). For reference, the Trelock RS 450 Balloon model offers 14mm clearance per side in the same location. Mud clearance should not be a problem in any ordinary use. If you are running 1.75in tires, you'll have no clearance problems running an AXA Defender.

3) Mounting options vary for frames (like Thorns) lacking the M5x0.8mm bosses for direct mounting...
a) The little "Spam can" metal straps and worm drive option...I found fiddly to fit and insecure and not worth the bother. Heaven help you if you need to remove the lock and refit it. This kit was sometimes included with the locks, but now seems less common than even a year ago.
b) I had really good luck with the AXA "ATB" mounting kit. It consists of two shaped plastic blocks, a couple of nuts and externally toothed washers, and two vinyl coated end-threaded "cup hooks" that wrap around the seatstays and grasp it. With this kit, mounting was a breeze and removal and reinstallation is easy if you need to. All that is needed is an 8mm socket wrench or Y-wrench. The kits come in two sizes, so you just need to choose the one appropriate to your seatstay diameter. My Sherpa Mk2 and the Raven Tours both used 16mm seatstays so the larger kit was ideal. Here is a link to the ATB kit in two sizes:
http://www.dutchbikebits.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=52
c) AXA offer a new kit, each side has two metal worm-drives and two plastic straps. The new kit was introduced with the new Victory lock and will also fit the Defender. It looks both logical and secure, and a couple of sets are on their way to me in the mail now. I have not yet seen them in person  but on the face of it, I favor these new mounts over all others for the AXA Defender or later Victory model ring-locks. All that is needed for installation is a screwdriver to make it a fast and straightforward operation. There may be a problem with missing the canti bosses or seatstay bridge, but I'll find out when mine arrive.
d) AXA (and others, including ABUS) offer mounts to place the ring-lock on your canti- or v-brake mounts. I don't favor this because the lock is outside the rear triangle and so vulnerable to some removal exploits that do not apply when the lock is trapped inside the seatstays. Trelock also offers a plastic mount that clamps the seat tube. That is considerably more secure against theft than a canti-mount but won't always work on bikes where there is a lot of space between the seat tube and rear tire due to long chainstays (Thorn). A special note for RavenTour and Raven owners: The canti mounts are unlikely to be compatible with the Rohloff cable stop used on the internal shifter on those two bikes. This does not apply to the Sherpa, which has a derailleur drivetrain.

To install one of these ring-locks on a Sherpa or RavenTour/Raven is pretty straightforward:
Depending on mudguard width, you may only need to drop the lock over the 'guard, fit the mounting straps loosely 'round the stays, bolt the lock to the straps, then tighten the straps, checking to make sure the lock is mounted evenly away from each sidewall and the lock hasp clears the bottom the rim. Done.

In more extreme cases, you might need to deflate the rear tire or even remove and reinstall the wheel a couple of times to initially fit the lock. If the mudguard is wider than the *opening* of the lock, you will need to remove the rear wheel and approach the 'guard with the lock sideways, rotating it upright into the wider opening for installation. That's a one-time thing when fitting or removing.

Trying to mount the AXA Defender on the *Nomad's* larger diameter, more widely spaced stays required considerable modification to the AXA ATB mounts and the end result ultimately did not meet my standards for a secure fit -- it was fine in practice, but the minute "clocking" around the mounts bugged me and I feared it could pull free if a thief really pushed a loaded bike with the lock shut. That -- along with concerns over extreme mud clearance with 2.0 tires is what led me to the Trelock RS 450 Balloon model, which was just introduced late last year, along with the AXA Victory. It *just* fits my size 590M frame provided I reversed and inverted the Trelock ZR20 mounts. It is secure and there's no "clocking". These ZR20 mounts will also fir the AXA Defender and other ring-locks and are holding my old AXA Defender to one of my rando frames now. The use threaded brass inserts embedded in glass-filled nylon and are very secure.

Okay, here are the relevant links, Lewis...
Original topic asking of anyone had fitted an AXA Defender to a Sherpa:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=1944.msg9015#msg9015
My description of what I fitted to my own Sherpa and how:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=1944.msg19634#msg19634
My followup here with detailed photos showing the ATB "cup hook" mount:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=1944.msg19741#msg19741
A query I answered on how to mount the AXA Defender to a Nomad:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6301.msg37831#msg37831
My cautions about Nomad fitting here:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6301.msg37831#msg37831
My fully detailed procedure for fitting an AXA Defender to a Nomad's larger 19mm diameter, more widely spaced seatstays:
http://www.thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4987.0
For balance, some Forum members have had good luck fitting ABUS Amparo 4850 ring-locks to their bikes. I did not care for some of the Amparo's features (and it is difficult to find this model with a captive key) and found the mount tended to "clock" 'round the stays a bit over time on my size 590M frame -- stay width where the lock actually mounts does vary a bit across frame sizes due to geometry. Hence my choice of either the AXA Defender/Victory for bikes with smaller seatstays and the Trelock RS 450 Balloon for my Nomad's large diameter, widely spaced stays.
JimK's treatise on his ABUS Amparo 4850:
http://www.thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4148.msg18856#msg18856
My Sherpa Gallery with photos of the lock in place can be found here:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3896.msg17095#msg17095

Hope this helps.

All the best,

Dan.

[Danneaux]

As an aside, I will order another Teelock RS 450 Balloon next week to put on my Tandem. Its 19mm stays are the same diameter as the Nomad's but spaced even more widely apart, so I will need to mill my own mounting brackets from aluminum billet to mount it -- a considerably more complicated solution than ready-made mounts!

By the way, ring locks are very handy on public transport  (i.e. on bumper mounted bus racks) and on trains and ferries. They prevent the bike from rolling and it cannot be freely wheeled while locked.

I sometimes don't bother with using my Click-Stand brake bands if I first throw the lock shut. Two birds killed with one stone if I'm standing near the bike.

Best,

Dan.

[Danneaux]

Closeup comparo photos of the two frame mounted ring-locks for those who wrote and requested them...

AXA Defender vs. Trelock RS 450 Balloon.

Best,

Dan.

[Danneaux]

AXA Defender bolt used to hold 10mm cable -- apart from the plug-in options. The same strategy will work for any ring-lock provided placement is correct.

This is how I hold the cable that secures my saddle, seatpost, and underseat tool bag and also my rear Ortlieb pannier anti-snatch tethers.

Best,

Dan.

[rualexander]

Hey Dan,
Do you have any knowledge about the susceptibility of these locks to corrosion over time?
The salt on the roads in winter here is bad news for any exposed steel.
What are the locking rings of these locks made of?
Cheers

[Danneaux]

Do you have any knowledge about the susceptibility of these locks to corrosion over time?

None except by some small-sample secondhand observation of friends' locks in Bavaria, where roads are also salted in winter. In those cases, the locks with exposed sliders at the side seemed more prone to visible salt damage/rust freckling than those with forward facing tracks ("forward" with the lock mounted inside the chainstays for greater security).

The plastic covers looked good, but it is entirely possible the steel cores were corroded and I just could not see them. The hasps carried some discoloration from salt water-drips when the bike was parked. My one friend mentioned the lock sticking a bit if he failed to oil it occasionally. These friends kept their "good bikes" in the garage until Spring and retired them for utility bikes at first snowfall.

The salt on the roads in winter here is bad news for any exposed steel.

I can only imagine the damage to bikes, given what it can do to cars. I'm lucky to live where wintry roads are sanded with grit made from crushed rock or lava rather than salt.

Corrosion resistance was of some concern to me, given my rides in alkali desert dust. In that environment, things have gone well with no outward signs of rust, but I really think these locks could be problematic with continued salt exposure. On the other hand, friends living along the The Netherlands' North Sea continue to use them without complaint*. However, there's a big difference between salt air and salty water splashed up from roads. I don't think these frame mounted locks could be expected to do well with continued exposure. I would imagine they could become sticky and eventually difficult to use as a result of rust.

What are the locking rings of these locks made of?

Since the sliding bolts are magnetic, it must be some sort of ferrous steel and not stainless. Each company has their own name for the steel alloys used. All the ones I've seen appear plated. Peering 'round the edges of the plastic casing, it appears the bodies are made from zinc plated sheet steel. The firm that co-designed the AXA Defender offers an "x-ray" view inside at this slideshow: https://www.welldesign.com/en/portfolios/axa-defender/  As with many locks, the plastic cover is part of the lock's armor and makes it difficult to fit bolt cutters 'round the exposed body. It also "styles" a pretty pedestrian looking product for greater shelf appeal.

You raise a really good point, Rual. I don't think these ring-locks would be well suited for continued exposure to road salt. If they remained mounted but unactuated so the bolt remained cloaked, I think they'd fare pretty well because they are so well shielded from the top and rear, but what good is an unused lock?

All the best,

Dan.

*Most Dutch bikes come equipped with the M5x0.8mm (bottle) bosses to mount these frame ring-locks to the seatstays. However, for those lacking bosses, the solution offered by many shops is not plastic clamps but a punch, drill bit, and sheetmetal screws(!). Grisly, but you see an awful lot of this on parked bikes.

[Danneaux]

Hi All!

A quick update to show you Seymour ("See-more") the Nomad is still wheeling along happily. We breezed along joyfully today, getting home just before the heavens opened with lots of thunder.

Best,

Dan.

[Danneaux]

Hi All!

Small updates and refinements continue to happen four-and-a-half years after delivery...

Came home from this ride determined to shave the head of my Trelock frame mounted ring-lock key. I used the Nomad a bit off-road today and the wet/muddy soil resulted in some gymnastics on the bike to keep things going straight. While the key head is normally not a problem, I did manage to strike it lightly with my heel a couple times...best to take care of it now.

Came home, revved up the belt/disc sander and went to town on it before drilling and countersinking a new hole for the small keyring that attaches the spiral wristband for keeping the key safe off-bike. I chose the key-retaining version of the Trelock RS450 Balloon lock, so the key remains in the lock while riding -- my assurance I will never forget the key. I take it with me on the wristband when off the bike, no pockets needed.

Best,

Dan.

[mickeg]

...
Came home, revved up the belt/disc sander and went to town on it before drilling and countersinking a new hole for the small keyring that attaches the spiral wristband for keeping the key safe off-bike. ...

My first thought was that some gram counters cut down their toothbrush handle to save weight, buy a spork so they can ditch the heavier spoon & fork combo, etc.  But I never considered you to be a gram counter.  I know you are not a gram counter, but I just had to make the comment.

[John Saxby]

I never considered you to be a gram counter.  I know you are not a gram counter, but I just had to make the comment.

Take care of the milligrams, and the tonnes will look after themselves... or something like that. 

[jags]

gram counter right enough the more the merrier.

only joking Dan.


anto.

[Danneaux]

One of the joys of a heavy bike is anything added to it is a much smaller percentage of the whole compared to the same weight on a lighter bike.

I figure I can add awholebunchastuff to my 20kg Nomad and never feel the difference.  That's another thing that makes it a great expedition bike.
All the best,

Dan. (...who thinks of it all as "training aids")

[Danneaux]

A little update on my Nomad...

I incurred a puncture today and pulled the rear wheel to do a repair and to check on how things are doing with the Rohloff hub.

Good news: All is well. No real weeping beyond the slightest mist of oil on the shift-box that caught a bit of dust on the last logging road; even the dropouts are clean beyond my usual after-ride wipe-downs. My filling the external shift-box with Phil Wood Waterproof Grease has proven out in practice: No intrusion of water or dust and the grease has turned to a light oil where I hoped it would, enhancing sealing while preventing galling of the geared parts to the case/housing.

You may notice the screwed-on sprocket is back, once again replacing the splined version that had supplanted it. No particular reason except I am conducting some testing and experiments and needed it on for measurements.

Best,

Dan.

[jags]

looks better than new ,stick up a few photos Dan of your nomad.

anto.