Author Topic: Old hub has started slipping. Need suggestions for servicing.  (Read 14489 times)

beagley

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My 18 year old Thorn Raven's Rohloff hub has started misbehaving. Gears 8 and 10 are slipping occasionally. (By slipping I mean no resistance to the pedals.) Typically slips for about a second before suddenly engaging. In gear 8 the problem happens most often when setting-off from stationary (very disconcerting when intending to dart assertively into a gap in traffic!). In gear 10 the problem occurs randomly while steadily pedalling along but typically slips for a shorter period (less than a second). Also, while pedalling along in gear 8 only there's an occasional click (randomly every half hour or so) that can be felt through the pedals; feels like a micro slip.

Was worse in the cold weather. Oil change improved things a bit but problem remains.

Apart from this I've never had any issues with this hub (apart from a cracked shell which SJS identified as a known manufacturing issue and replaced free of charge even though the bike was well out of warranty by the time the defect emerged).

The bike is old but it's only been used as a utility bike, doing maybe 2000 miles a year (so about 36,000 miles in total). Oil changed annually.

Interested to know (1) if anyone recognises the symptoms and (2) any recommendations for who I might send it to to get it fixed. Hoping to get another 18 years out of it ;)
 

mickeg

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Re: Old hub has started slipping. Need suggestions for servicing.
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2023, 08:13:49 PM »
I have no advice for you.  But I am curious, from your description, the slipping did not occur immediately after a gear shift.  Is that correct?

PH

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Re: Old hub has started slipping. Need suggestions for servicing.
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2023, 08:19:00 PM »
Don't get your hopes too high and I'm not making promises, but...
The most likely cause of slipping gears is the pawls not engaging and the cure for that is to replace the springs, a simple job and readily available spares are £3
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/rohloff-pawl-springs-for-speedhub-50014-8275/

I've needed to do two of my hubs, though I don't recall they were slipping in specific gears, but it was most often when pulling away or after a change.  I don't remember any clicks either.  It might not be that at all, but for the sake of a couple of quid, you may as well try.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2023, 08:21:35 PM by PH »

steve216c

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Re: Old hub has started slipping. Need suggestions for servicing.
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2023, 07:08:57 AM »
I’ve experienced occasional problems one might describe as slipping and in my cases it seemed to be caused by a damaged gear cable (frayed internally causing intermittent snagging of the cable when shifting) that was the culprit on first slipping issues. A year or so later I had similar problems. I assumed cable so was going to replace cables but all was good. I noticed that one of my gear cable adjuster screws  must have shifted gradually on its own to imbalance the other cable when they pull against each other. Just adjusting the tension on the too loose cable fixed my problem that time.
My hub is with internal gear mech so I’m not sure this solution would apply to external mech systems.

Nonetheless, I had no idea what pawl springs were nor what they do. I might just pick up a set to have on hand and replace on my 10+ year old hub if I have the wheel off for other reasons.

Found this on the internet with photos someone took of there replacing these after similar problems. https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/rohloff-skipping-problem-solved-surprisingly-easily/?utm_content=cmp-true
If only my bike shed were bigger on the inside...

Tiberius

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Re: Old hub has started slipping. Need suggestions for servicing.
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2023, 08:55:13 AM »
beagley.

Further to PH's advice above, I researched how to change the pawl springs and came upon this video. There may be better videos out there but I posted this one as the guy seems to have had a problem similar to yours, plus he has an issue undoing the torx screws. I've heard of a number of people being in the same pickle.

https://youtu.be/eVhzQbLSOHQ

As said, it is an easy job. I have had that lot apart (researching an oil leak) and to be honest I didn't realise that those little springs were the pawl springs. Amazing what you learn here eh?

PERSONALLY If I was doing this job I would change the little paper gaskets - this little kit comes complete with gaskets and a new set of torx screws which I would also change if they had never been out before.

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/rohloff-paper-gasket-kit-for-axle-ring-with-axle-plate-screws-for-speedhub-50014-8714/

If you do change the pawl springs, please pop back and let us know if they resolved the issue?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2023, 09:03:38 AM by Tiberius »

Andre Jute

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Re: Old hub has started slipping. Need suggestions for servicing.
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2023, 09:11:12 AM »

JohnR

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Re: Old hub has started slipping. Need suggestions for servicing.
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2023, 11:38:39 AM »
I presume that the springs in question are those visible in the 4th photo of the first post here http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14788.0.

Is there enough oil / gease to keep the springs moving freely?

beagley

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Re: Old hub has started slipping. Need suggestions for servicing.
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2023, 12:41:37 PM »
... I am curious, from your description, the slipping did not occur immediately after a gear shift.  Is that correct?

I guess there would tend to be a preceding gear shift before setting-off in gear 8. But in gear 10, no - it slips randomly while steadily pedalling along.

The most likely cause of slipping gears is the pawls not engaging and the cure for that is to replace the springs

As the guy says in the video Tiberius linked to: "these springs are so cheap, why not try it?". So I shall.
There are also some useful comments under that video, especially one by a Paul Moir who lists several common causes of slipping gears:
"incorrectly tensioned cables (no freeplay), thickened oil or lack of the regular oil change (dirty oil, non-oem oil or extreme cold), the oil drain screw tightened too deep (below the shell surface) and hitting against the clutch ring or the main axle tightened in excess of the recommended (max. 7Nm for quick-release skewer, and max. 35Nm for the threaded axle)".

I'm at a loss to understand how quick-release skewer tightness can affect hub operation. If anyone can explain this I'd be grateful.

Thanks for all the replies. I'll report back when I've replaced the pawl springs (and checked my quick-release skewer tightness).
 

PH

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Re: Old hub has started slipping. Need suggestions for servicing.
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2023, 02:03:32 PM »
PERSONALLY If I was doing this job I would change the little paper gaskets - this little kit comes complete with gaskets and a new set of torx screws which I would also change if they had never been out before.
Good point, I've changed gaskets whenever I've had that apart, haven't changed the screws, though as that kit is the same price as the gaskets I will next time around.

mickeg

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Re: Old hub has started slipping. Need suggestions for servicing.
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2023, 02:05:55 PM »
Springs that are under compression will slowly deform.  I can see how the springs could get weaker over time.  My hub was built in 2013 or 2014 and I have not had any such problems, but I can see how a hub that is more than a decade older than mine could have some springs that have lost some of their ability to hold the pawls tight.

And I just recalled as I typed the above paragraph, in 2019, I thought I had a bit of slippage a couple of times while on a tour.  I could not remember why one generic remedy was to give a good whack to the drive side axle with the wheel out of the bike, but because I could not remember what that did, I pulled the wheel out and gave it a good whack with the rubber sole of my hiking shoe (did not kick it, used the shoe like a rubber mallet by hand).  And I did not have any slippage after that.  Since then, I learned that the "whack" with a rubber mallet was intended to reseat bearings and should not have anything to do with slippage.  I just did a google search for Rohloff Hub rubber mallet, found a few hits, pasted this from a Rohloff manual:
The hub bearing within the
hubshell is a fixed bearing and the
hub bearing on the sprocket side is
a movable bearing. During the
replacement of the gearbox, the
movable bearing could get strained
(the outer race does not move
parallel with the inner race due to
friction created against the hub
casing). By hitting the axle pegs
with a rubber mallet, the inner and
outer races of the bearing will be
brought back into line. The
sprocket should spin freely when
rotated backwards once it is
correctly seated.


But, it appeared to have worked for me back in 2019, so you could give that a try too.

Rohloff over time has made slight changes to the hub components, I would not be surprised if they have switched to a longer or stronger spring. 

I hope that springs and not pawls are the issue.  I had a 1968 Triumph T100R motorcycle that I drove for about 12 years.  At one time in the mid 1970s, replacement parts were extremely hard to obtain from the factory and for several months I needed a new kick starter pawl.  It was only a tiny piece of steel, but because it was too worn I could not use the kick starter to start my engine.  I had to push start it, which was most inconvenient.

***

The area with those pawl springs appears to be the same general area that I had planned to fill up with grease when I did my next oil change in the hopes of reducing leakage.  But I can easily see how adding any viscous grease would make the pawl springs a bit slower to respond when coasting. 

So, maybe adding grease to that area is a bad idea?

In other words where JohnR asked:  Is there enough oil / gease to keep the springs moving freely?, my concern is the opposite, would viscous grease be counter productive?

I should be doing an oil change in the next few weeks, I will keep this in mind.  I plan to open it up and see if there is an obvious way to reduce leakage but I am now less inclined to add grease.

PH

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Re: Old hub has started slipping. Need suggestions for servicing.
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2023, 02:10:53 PM »
There are also some useful comments under that video, especially one by a Paul Moir who lists several common causes of slipping gears:
He crops up with useful advise on social media quite often, it may have been him who advised me to try swapping pawl springs, for those that didn't know, he's the Austrailian Rohloff distributor, so is not without some expertise.

Andre Jute

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Re: Old hub has started slipping. Need suggestions for servicing.
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2023, 12:58:49 AM »
Springs that are under compression will slowly deform.  I can see how the springs could get weaker over time.  My hub was built in 2013 or 2014 and I have not had any such problems, but I can see how a hub that is more than a decade older than mine could have some springs that have lost some of their ability to hold the pawls tight.

That's a horrid thought, that a Rohloff may wear merely from age, rather than use or abuse.

Happy to hear the replacement parts are cheap and readily available, and that the fitting process simple.

JohnR

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Re: Old hub has started slipping. Need suggestions for servicing.
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2023, 03:36:18 PM »
There's a Rohloff FAQ for this problem https://www.rohloff.de/en/service/handbook/faqs which includes:

- Gearbox oil too thick - Carry out an oil change with an intensive rinsing,

- The SPEEDHUB 500/14 axle is secured too tightly into the frame which could damage internal components.

- Oil drain screw is re-inserted too deep following an oil change. Now places pressure upon internal transmission components.

- Check that both freewheel springs are present and seated correctly see Owners Manual "Repairs" 1.1 and "Service" 5.3.

Some of these have already been mentioned.

I would also note that if the hub has the external shift box then also make sure is well-packed with grease. Rohloff recommends that the face of the ex-box facing the hub is re-greased every 500km https://www.rohloff.de/en/service/handbook/speedhub/maintenance/maintanance-tips .

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Old hub has started slipping. Need suggestions for servicing.
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2023, 05:29:35 PM »
Springs that are under compression will slowly deform.  I can see how the springs could get weaker over time.  My hub was built in 2013 or 2014 and I have not had any such problems, but I can see how a hub that is more than a decade older than mine could have some springs that have lost some of their ability to hold the pawls tight.

That's a horrid thought, that a Rohloff may wear merely from age, rather than use or abuse.

Happy to hear the replacement parts are cheap and readily available, and that the fitting process simple.

Am I correct in thinking that those 2 springs are only used with the ex-box?

Best
 Matt
Never drink and drive. You may hit a bump  and spill your drink

PH

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Re: Old hub has started slipping. Need suggestions for servicing.
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2023, 06:34:58 PM »
Am I correct in thinking that those 2 springs are only used with the ex-box?

Best
 Matt
No. the pawls and their springs are identical regardless of shifting mechanism.
You can see them in this vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGNFZjavXcI