Author Topic: New Raven build -- advice sought  (Read 119919 times)

mickeg

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #135 on: January 10, 2016, 03:26:56 PM »
I use ones like this.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/U-S-Seller-Gold-Tone-40-pcs-2-8mm-Crimp-Terminal-Female-Male-Connector-Spade-/111865765772

I picked those because that is what B&M used for taillight wiring at the headlight.  I no longer use a B&M light, but I had already standardized on these connectors. 

One disadvantage of what I am using - I have a few times found that the connectors connect together with greater strength than the strength of where I crimped the wiring, meaning when I pulled the connectors apart I pulled the wiring out of the connectors.  Thus using a soldered connection can be better than what I did.

In the photo you can see where I use these connectors to connect the yellow wires and the wires that come out of my headlight.  I used some black electrical tape on the male connectors to prevent shorts.

I use a battery powered taillight, so my wiring does not extend aft of the fork crown.

If you affix the wiring to the inside of the fenders, you might want to put a connector in the wiring where it starts at the fender in case you later remove the fenders for any reason.

rualexander

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #136 on: January 10, 2016, 04:47:32 PM »
Hey mickeg,
How are you finding the Axa Luxx 70? I have the Axa Nano Plus and am thinking of upgrading to the Luxx 70 Plus.

djd828

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #137 on: January 10, 2016, 04:47:49 PM »
Thanks Dan and Mick, I have been looking at the merits of the Dean soldered method vs the crimping method and I do prefer crimping mainly because I think it might be the easier method...and I think I'd rather invest in a good crimping tool rather than a soldering set. 

As far as the rear fender, I think I will do what Dan did and drill an entry and exit hole in the fender, install rubber grommets and then install a stretch of wire glued to the inside bead with connectors coming out each grommet hole.  This will allow me to remove the fender like you pointed out.  I think this would be a lot easier using crimping than soldering (I think).

I am glad that you have provided me with these options because I would have run the wire directly from my rear light to the front light (via the underside of the rear fender) in one long run and not even considered the difficulty of removing the rear fender if I needed to.

John Saxby

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #138 on: January 10, 2016, 06:10:50 PM »
Hi Dave,

Some notes on fenders, and a couple of add-ons on lighting circuitry:

1)    Fenders:

1.1)  Brands:  I'm using VO Zeppelin alloy fenders, size 650B x 52 mm.  Sorry if I misled you into thinking that I had Honjo fenders. I had wanted to get a pair of those when I was assembling my bike, but they weren't available when I needed them. Compass Bikes do offer Honjo 650B x 58 mm hammered fenders, and they look the business (and for USD 189 they should!)  You mention a 62 mm Honjo, though -- I didn't see that measurement on the Compass site.

The VO Zeppelins are USD 120/pr cheaper, and the 52 mm width works very well with my 26 x 1.6 Supremes. The latter are 39mm actual width inflated, so fit well within the Zeppelins, which are 52 mm external dimension.

VO fenders are, in my experience, very good quality, sturdy, and reasonably easy to fit. (More on that below.)  VO sell both 650B and 26" fenders, the latter in stainless and alloy, 60 mm width. (I didn't see a 62 mm measurement.) Their fenders are also a good length, both fore and aft.

I also prefer alloy to plastic.  I opted for the 650 B size, because I planned to use 1.6 or 1.75 tires, both of which will fit within my 52 mm fenders.

1.2)  Fenders and Raven measurements:

     *  On the rear, there's 65 mm of space between the inner sides of the seat stays on my Raven, at the point of the lower edge of the Zeppelins, i.e., net ~13mm total clearance.  So, no problem in fitting a 58mm Honjo, or a 60mm VO or Gilles Berthoud stainless. If you fit a 26" fender, rather than a 650B, you might get a little more width clearance, as the 650 fender sits slightly higher above the tire, by about a cm.

      *  At the front, it's a slightly different picture: At the level of the lower edge of my 650B Zeppelin, I measure just 60 mm total clearance between the inner sides of my forks. This is reduced a little from what I'd expected by the presence of a lug. Maybe if you used 26" x 60 mm fenders, you'd have a little more clearance. I couldn't check that on my bike without removing the wheel.  Maybe, however, you'd need to compress the edges of the fender slightly, to clear the forks, and/or add some tape mickeg suggests.

      *  If you used 650B fenders at the front, say 58 mm Honjos, you should have just enough clearance. A bit of protective tape would be useful, though.

1.3)   Mounting the fenders:  I didn't do this work -- my LBS assembled the fenders.  I did, however, modify my front Zeppelin fender this past fall.  I reduced the overall length by about 10 cms, and re-drilled the shortened fender, both to accept a different mudflap and to mount the fender stay higher up, and almost parallel to the ground.  I found this adjustment easy to do, once I had managed to reconcile myself to cutting the fender. (Alloy is easy to work with, if you have a good range of good quality drills, files, and hacksaws.) As always, measure twice (or three times!), cut (or drill) once. Don't even think about doing such changes in situ.

Note: The VO fenders don't rub on the bottom edge of the Raven's head tube, because the fender bolts screw into the tapped hole in the bridge across the steerer, and the top of the fender is cushioned by a nice plump leather washer, part of VO's hardware. No need to tape the lower edge of the head tube, therefore. Good idea to inspect/oil/replace the leather washer occasionally, as it can dry out & does get compressed between the fender & the bridge across the steerer.

2)     Lighting circuits:  I use a SON28 hub dynamo, with circuits only to my headlight and Sinewave charger. At the rear, I use a couple of good quality removable battery-powered tail lights (Planet Bike & Portland Design Works), one on my seat bag and one on my rack.   I charge the batts via my Sinewave charger.

    *  It's very useful to install connectors in your rear circuit, to allow removal of the fenders without also removing your wiring.  I learned this when reassembling my daughter's bike this past year, after she had shipped it from Berlin. She has a Stevens touring bike with integral lighting, as German bikes do, and her Shimano circuit has a couple of very nice plastic M/F connectors. Both are outside the fender, one behind the seat tube & the other atop the fender behind the light itself. The wire is routed inside the fender.

     *  Following Dan's model, I used Deans connectors on the lower front circuit on my Raven. The SON28 has piggyback connectors at the hub tabs, which allow me to run 2 circuits, for the light & the charger.  I installed Deans connectors just above the drip loop, about 10-12 cms from the hub tabs. There are two pairs of connectors, 1 pair in each circuit, each of which has 2 wires.  The Deans connectors are quite easy to use -- both M and F plugs have a little ridge at the end which you can grab with your fingertips.  The value of using the Deans (or other) connectors is that you can remove the wheel without having to constantly remove the wiring from the tabs on the hub. My experience is that, once the blade connectors are pushed onto the tabs, the whole lot is best left alone.

      * My experience with this setup has been generally positive.  I had to re-reach myself to do soldering.  This meant buying a soldering kit.  One of those is lot cheaper than the pro-quality crimping tool sold by Peter White.  I have a crimping tool as well, but it's an inexpensive item I bought years ago from Canadian Tire, and it does not work very well for the finer crimping required by small-calibre bicycle wires.

      *  On the whole, my light-and-charging system has worked well over two seasons.  I did encounter one problem this past season in my soldering, almost certainly a result of bad technique:  one wire in the connections to my Deans connectors had gotten bent in the soldering process (too brittle, from too much heat? too tight a squeeze from the heat sink on the wire?) and eventually I had an intermittent break in the circuit.  Luckily, the other circuit worked faultlessly, so I just switched the two circuits so that my light worked and my charger didn't. I didn't need the charger this year anyway--didn't have enough longer tours that required charging my batts, cellphone, or camera.

      *  This fall, as part of my year-end service on my Raven, I traced the fault, cut off the faulty wire/connector, and re-soldered the connection.  Note: (i) I didn't re-use the connector. I had bought more than I needed  when I first bought them. (ii)  I had made the drip loop long enough to allow me to cut off a cm or two, to re-solder the connection.  (This was pure dumb luck, not foresight.)

      *  I did find that one of the two piggyback connectors didn't work very well -- it was always a bit loose in its fit with the tab on my hub.  I replaced it.  That meant a crimping connection, but I added some solder to it.  So far, the new one works fine.

      *  Also this past fall, I decided to fit connectors into the upper part of my front circuit, so that I could disconnect the charger and the headlight circuits if I ever needed to remove the front fork, without also removing the wiring from charger and light.  These connections lie flat against the side of my head tube, above the fork crown, covered from view, sort of, by black electricians' tape which matches the matte-back finish of my bike.  For these connections, I used the modified M/F blade connectors sold by Peter White as a regular SON fitment. These are crimped, not soldered -- I figured that, unlike the lower connectors near the drip loop, I wold not be using these very often, so they wouldn't be under the stress of regular removal. (Sinewave do sell inline tubular gold connectors, which are a bit less bulky, but they have to be soldered, with a small surface area for the connection, and I didn't trust my technique to make an effective joint. So, I used the flat blade connectors.)

I hope that's helpful, Dave.  It's about the sum total of my knowledge on all this -- take it FWIW, but I'm happy to defer to the much greater experience of people like Dan and mickeg in these matters.

Cheers,

John

« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 06:17:09 PM by John Saxby »

Danneaux

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #139 on: January 10, 2016, 08:55:26 PM »
Dave,

If you glue the wire inside the fender, I would suggest using a beta-cyanoacrylate gel and clothespins over waxed paper to hold the wire in place while it cures. The beta-cy makes for a more secure bond with the plastic used in SKS 'guards.

I would also suggest routing the wire at the edge of the fender, near the bead. If routed down the middle, it can take an awful pummeling from rocks if you ride much on gravel.

It is possible to tap into the foil used in SKS fenders and use it as a taillight lead. There are usually three separate strips/circuits available. It is a bit tricky to remove the plastic enough to expose the foil, but if you use stainless M3 machine screws and secure them with nylock washers, then cover the finished terminal with super glue, the connection can remain good for years, even decades. I have a set I made 30+ years ago that is still going strong -- description and photo here:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=2273.msg16261#msg16261  No separate wires needed, but it is a bit tricky, as mentioned. I used ring terminals on the ends of the light wires to connect.

Best,

Dan.

Danneaux

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #140 on: January 10, 2016, 09:20:03 PM »
One other thought on the wiring, Dave...

When I make a new purchase and install it on one bike, the displaced part gets moved on down to the next bike in the fleet and so on in a sort of food chain or bicycle version of musical chairs.

For this reason, I will soon be equipping my dyno headlights with a Dean's connector at about the same point in the lead as the length of the attached taillight leads, the idea being easier removal and installation of my headlights while leaving the wire runs intact on the frame. It seems B&M (and other makers, for that matter) are introducing greatly improved headlights on an annual basis, and some of the new ones are improved enough to justify replacement even while still working (for example, my Nomad got a new Cyo Premium; its old IQ Cyo R with nearfield vision and horrid hotspot will be moved to my late father's bike (now under reconstruction as a "gravel grinder" for my use).

Forum member JulK (Julian) has another reason for a quick-disconnect headlight: Security. He has an Edelux pinched while parked some years ago, and now takes his light with him when he leaves, thanks to the addition of a couple Supernova gold-plated connectors. I believe forum member JimK also uses the Supernova connectors with some success. They are much larger than the Dean's and good for only one circuit each, but connect and remove easily and have proven reliable.

Best,

Dan.

djd828

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #141 on: January 10, 2016, 10:16:14 PM »
Thanks John and Dan,

The 62mm fenders offered by Compass are the 650b smooth fenders...I am a little concerned that they will be too wide.  At maximum, I will be using 50mm tires so I thought the 62mm fenders would be ideal but I guess the 58mm would also work.

Dan, I was perusing all of my options for inline connectors and settled on the Supernova connectors even before I read your post...they seem like the perfect solution for me.  Also read your recommendation on the super glue which I will most likely do and I may also place a high adhesive HVAC metal tape over if to be extra sure. 

Not sure how long it will take SJC to ship the frame but I am rally anxious to get this built up...with all of the parts I now have, one of the rooms in my house looks like a mini bike shop.

mickeg

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #142 on: January 11, 2016, 12:08:49 AM »
Hey mickeg,
How are you finding the Axa Luxx 70? I have the Axa Nano Plus and am thinking of upgrading to the Luxx 70 Plus.

Very happy with the Luxx 70 Plus.  I wrote the comments at the link below a few weeks after I got it, I just looked at those comments again and I would not change any of my comments.

http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11153.msg81461#msg81461

Thanks Dan and Mick, I have been looking at the merits of the Dean soldered method vs the crimping method and I do prefer crimping mainly because I think it might be the easier method...and I think I'd rather invest in a good crimping tool rather than a soldering set. 
...

I usually just use a short Vice Grip for a crimping tool, but maybe that is why the wire sometimes pulls out of my crimped connectors.

...
Not sure how long it will take SJC to ship the frame but I am rally anxious to get this built up...with all of the parts I now have, one of the rooms in my house looks like a mini bike shop.

My frame from SJS came pretty quick to my home in USA, maybe a week after I ordered it.  Fortunately I was at home when the mail carrier arrived with it since he needed a big check for customs duty.

John Saxby

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #143 on: January 11, 2016, 04:31:16 AM »
Quote
I will be using 50mm tires so I thought the 62mm fenders would be ideal but I guess the 58mm would also work

Dave, it's worth checking on the actual inflated width of different 2.00"/50 mm tires. My Marathon Supreme 26 x 1.6", for example, nominally 40.6 mm, are about 2 mm less when inflated (approx 38.5 mm). 

I seem to recall reading/hearing of measurements of 47 mm actual for inflated 26 x 2.00 Supremes, but I may be off base there.  If so, they'd work well enough with 650B x 58mm fenders.  Anyone got a reading on these?

Which 2" tires do you plan to use, Dave?

Danneaux

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #144 on: January 11, 2016, 06:18:52 AM »
A quick follow-on at the risk of sounding technically pedantic:

Rim width affects the width and height of inflated tires as well, so can be worth checking before committing to a strategy. John's suggestion to check actual inflated width will account for this variance, which can be as much as 2-3mm.

I just checked my inflated 26x2.0 Duremes and got 47mm section width, same as a pair of 26x2.0 Supremes on a friends' Andra 30 rim, same as mine (the sidewalls seem to be the widest part by a small margin). I've found actual casing width can vary 1-2mm depending on tire pressure and age -- they seem to stretch a *little* bit over time. Ran F/R pressures of 32/37psi today, and the section widths measured 47/48mm.

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 04:37:55 PM by Danneaux »

djd828

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #145 on: January 11, 2016, 12:52:40 PM »
John, I am going to start with 2.0" Marathon Mondials because I got them new for next to nothing from someone that never used them.  I know these are rather heavy tires and that, ultimately, I may be better off with a narrower and lighter tire.

John Saxby

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #146 on: January 11, 2016, 03:20:53 PM »
A couple of further thoughts, Dave:

1)    Might be best to wait on your fender decision until you have rims & tires fitted on the bike, so that you can choose your fenders according to more precise measurements.  Shouldn't take too long to get fenders from, say, Compass or VO.

2)    From Dan's report, I'd say that you could probably work with ~47 mm as the actual measurement.  That suggests that a 58mm or a 60 mm fender would suit for your nominal 2" tires.  Maybe/maybe a 62mm fender would fit the Raven's forks, but it's not clear to me that the size of your tires would require the wider fender.

3)    A 58 or 60 mm fender would also be fine if you were to go to, say, a 1.75"/44.5 mm tire in the future.

Hope that's helpful, Dave, and good luck with this maze of details.

Andre Jute

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #147 on: January 11, 2016, 06:21:52 PM »
(This was pure dumb luck, not foresight.)

No need to confess. "Serendipitously,..."

Dan, the link given in the text of http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=2273.msg16261#msg16261 to another post with an alternative connection method is broken, and seems worth fixing. [Done, Andre, plus fixed the self-referential "loop links" and re-uploaded the attached photo so the thumbnail works. Thanks, Dan.]

Dave, super-useful thread you've started here. John and Dan have already given you the headlines, but you should in addition check that the inside width of the fender is adequate to your tires' width as measured. With SKS plastic fenders, a P65 just barely covers a 60mm Big Apple and most other large Marathon derivatives, because there is no rolled bead; its problem is a lack of headroom over the tyre because it isn't very much domed; consequently my rear lamp is wired over the fender to avoid the wire being abraded underneath... But with metal fenders you may be rather surprised at how much space the rolled edge consumes, narrowing the space available for the tyre. Also, if you do decide on the SKS plastic fenders, note there are two lengths; the short ones, which I took because the long ones were out of stock, look really sporting but in the wet are a joke for posers; the long ones work better; get the spray diffuser for the rear end of each fender and the front cap for the front fender as well -- they're optional extras, not included in the prices, and worth having for extra control over spray. Order two sets of spare rubber caps for the fenders stays.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 03:37:28 AM by Danneaux »

John Saxby

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #148 on: January 11, 2016, 07:44:34 PM »
Thanks, Andre. That's a good point about the rolled bead on alloy fenders -- I couldn't readily measure the actual inner diameter above the bead on my Zeppelins, without removing the wheel.  (The bead, of course, enhances rigidity, creating a common swings-and-roundabouts dilemma.)

It may be worth checking, Dave, to see what stainless fenders look like in cross-section (how marked is their bead?), and comparing weights between alloy & stainless.

Danneaux

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #149 on: January 12, 2016, 05:56:40 AM »
Quote
...if you do decide on the SKS plastic fenders, note there are two lengths; the short ones, which I took because the long ones were out of stock, look really sporting but in the wet are a joke for posers; the long ones work better...
The long ones surely work better, no question, but shorter ones have an advantage on Romanian trains, where the front wheel hooks seem to be set unusually low, allowing the bike to rest on the end of the rear fender, loading the stays. A somewhat shorter mudguard allows the bike to rest directly on the tire. This can also be handy in freight elevators. Some platform luggage elevators fit a Raven Tour diagonally with about 3mm of clearance once the doors closed. I don't think my Nomad would have fit.

As mentioned earlier, Thorn kindly and thoughtfully provided threaded fittings beneath the steerer (a sort of brazed-in daruma) for a convenient and secure fit. However, it does leave the bolt head hovering directly over the center of the tread. If you decide to run a really robust front tire *and* go through a lot of mud, this is where it will rub. Not a huge issue with 26x2.0 Marathon Deluxes riding AndyBG's kindly loaned Raven Tour on Romania's more rural roads, but something to keep in mind when the sloppy stuff gets really thick.

His SKS mudgaurds were the 65mm variety, as I recall. They didn't appear as svelte as narrower ones when traveling on pavement, but the extra width provided welcome additional protection in wet/muddy conditions. The rear 'guard did have an unfortunate notch near the bottom on the right side, intended to clear a moving derailleur chain. Mud tended to dump out of this opening onto the right chainstay, but it did no harm except for looking a bit untidy. If you often run on sloppy surfaces, it might be worth considering a wider set. They can be notched for fork clearance if necessary his weren't.

Another point for consideration: I fitted a rear 'guard to the front of my Nomad. The longer length means the water exits at reduced velocity and the stream is aimed at the ground so I no longer ride directly into the blowback of my own spray. I've been very pleased with the result and everything stays so much cleaner and drier. Forum member MartinF adopted a similar setup and seemed well pleased with it. Story and photos here:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4523.msg23847#msg23847 (with photos unfortunately corrupted by the Forum update; I'll upload new ones soon)
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4523.msg23943#msg23943 (photos comparing short original with longer version)
A couple of photos are attached below, showing the extended front 'guard.

A final point: I've found a generous front mudflap does wonders for keeping the entire drivetrain and my feet much cleaner and drier and greatly reduces cleanup and maintenance and extends service life. I've had good luck with BuddyFlaps: http://www.buddyflaps.com/

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 06:22:11 AM by Danneaux »