New Raven build -- advice sought

[jags]

Take those wheels back .your going to have problems  once your put loaded panniers on the rack to much stress to handle bent nipples .
sorry for being a buzz killer  but better to have them sorted now  and not when your on tour.

other than that good news have a good christmas.

jags.

[jags]

here u go check this out at 11 minutes.he gets his wheel rebuilt in poland   further on in this .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kBMGbHanLU

[djd828]

Take those wheels back .your going to have problems  once your put loaded panniers on the rack to much stress to handle bent nipples .
sorry for being a buzz killer  but better to have them sorted now  and not when your on tour.

other than that good news have a good christmas.

jags.

I watched the video and am still a bit unclear concerning what caused Mark's issue.  In an interview in the article link below, he indicates that the issue was caused by over tensioned spokes in the initial wheel build.  One of the things that Velcoity stresses with their wheel build is getting the spoke tensioning as precise as possible.  I'll keep an eye on things and I'll have a whole year of riding under my belt before my big planned trip so I hope that serves as a test of the wheel build.

http://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/article/interview-mark-beaumont-18628/

[rualexander]

I wouldn't worry too much about the spoke angle at the nipple, I imagine the vast majority of people who use Rohloff hubs do not have special rims drilled specifically for Rohloff. If your wheels were put together by a decent wheelbuilder I'm sure they will be fine. Although the angles in the second picture you posted don't look as severe as the angkes on your own wheel.

[mickeg]

Good morning--

I took a look at my new wheels last night and did see what, I believe, some of you were noticing.  It looks like an ever so slight bend at some of the nipple entry points.  I also found a photo on Cycle Monkey's site of the old style Cliffhangers that John used that shows this same issue.  I attached a photo and circled some of the areas that I think some of you were pointing out.  Cycle Monkey is the US distributor of Rohloff hubs and they also use a lot of Velocity rims...I believe that Velocity may also build some of the wheels for them.  I will say that I am a little concerned but not to the point of panic.  I also ordered several replacement spokes and I will get some spare Polyax nipples just in case.



Dave

They are two cross, so the builder got that part right.

I assume that Velocity will back up the wheels if you start breaking spokes, they can't afford to get a reputation for wheels falling apart.  But if you sent them an e-mail with a concern, keep a copy of it and their response.  Having documentation that you had a concern could help a lot if you have arguments with them later.

I copied and pasted the following from Page 16 at the Thorn publication Living with a Rohloff, January 2012 update, by Andy Blance:

Many people question whether 32 spokes are enough…
especially on a tandem. We can report that 32 spokes
are certainly enough…in a correctly built wheel…even
for tandem use! Unfortunately we had several cases of
spoke breakage on the tandems until we discovered the
cause…incompatible rims! The flanges of the Rohloff
hub are so large that, with most rims, the spokes tend to
bend as they leave the nipple, eventually this causes
them to break at the nipple…a type of failure which was
unheard of…until it
happened! We solved the problem at source...we now
have rims drilled so that the spokes leave the rim in a
perfectly straight line, since doing this, no more tandems
have had broken spokes. If a wheel is strong enough for
tandem use, it will survive any other kind of touring use.
the odd broken spoke…broken spokes are very easily
replaced in a Rohloff hub as the sprocket does not need
to be removed to replace the spoke. I consider that this
is an acceptable price to pay, for the performance
benefits, of such rims, on this type of bike.
There have been a few isolated cases of the flange
cracking at the spoke holes. Rohloff say that this is due
to undetectable flaws, in the alloy billet, prior to
manufacture. As of Aug 2011, Rohloff have made
considerably more than 100,000 hubs, so the chance of
this happening to you is very, very remote.

[il padrone]

This is one of the stated advantages of the Ryde Andra30 rims - Rohloff-specific drilling to avoid spoke stress at the nipples.

[leftpoole]

From my experience and these pictures I am convinced it is not the hub nor the spokes, it is indeed the rim.
Regards,
John

[djd828]

Just a quick update that I took John Saxby's sage advice and ordered the red Raven frame today...I needed to end this madness at some point and finally make a decision.  Hopefully I will have some photos of a completed bike to share later this month or early February.  Thanks everyone for your input and guidance...they were key reasons I decided to stick with my original plan to go with the Thorn.

[John Saxby]

Good choice, Dave!  Reckon that a red 'un is going to be marginally faster -- at least its rider will feel faster, which is really all that matters, no?  Look forward to the photos!

[djd828]

Thanks again John for your help and suggestions.  i have only the fenders left to purchase and noticed from reading the forum and then looking at some of the pics of your Raven, that you have the Honjo metal fenders. I have a couple questions concerning those.  First, I believe you mentioned in the forum that you have the 52mm version...how much horizontal clearance do you have with the front fork  and rear stays...will the fork and rear area accept 62mm Honjos?  Did you install them yourself and, if so, how would you rate the difficulty of installation?

On a somewhat related note, is a question of running the wiring from the the front light to the rear light.  I have read some folks using metal HVAC tape to tape the wires to the underside of the rear fender and then up through a hole drilled in the fender near the rear light (with a rubber grommet placed in the drilled hole in the fender).

I am looking for creative (and hopefully somewhat simple) ways to elegantly route the dyno and light wires.

Dave

[IanW]

On a somewhat related note, is a question of running the wiring from the the front light to the rear light.  I have read some folks using metal HVAC tape to tape the wires to the underside of the rear fender and then up through a hole drilled in the fender near the rear light (with a rubber grommet placed in the drilled hole in the fender).

I am looking for creative (and hopefully somewhat simple) ways to elegantly route the dyno and light wires.

I note up-thread that you [will] have a rear rack.
Are your lights going to be fitted to this rack?

If so, you could route the rear light wire(s) alongside the rear brake cable outer from the head-tube to the seat tube.
Then, you route the wire under the top deck of the rack. I do this along the centre-line (to avoid pannier hook interference via (i.e. inside) a length of cable trunking that is glued + zip-tied and painted black to match the [Thorn] rack.
This places the wire(s) in just the right place to reach a light that is attached to the back of the rack.

If you are instead using a fender-mounted rear dynamo light then HVAC metal tape might be a better answer.
Personally I would not route along the inside of the fender potentially necessitates drilling the fender
but would instead route the wire(s) over the top of the fender along the centre-line.

[mickeg]

Where you mount the fender under the fork crown, it is possible that it will rub on the paint under the crown.  When I built up my Sherpa, I put electrical tape over the paint on the fork crown where the fender would have otherwise chaffed on the paint.  That way my paint won't rub off the fork crown and start to rust.

Don't cut your fender stays too short in case you later want fatter tires.  On my Sherpa, I built it up first with the fattest tires I expected I might ever use  and that way my fenders had all the clearance I would need.

[Danneaux]

On a somewhat related note, is a question of running the wiring from the the front light to the rear light.  I have read some folks using metal HVAC tape to tape the wires to the underside of the rear fender and then up through a hole drilled in the fender near the rear light (with a rubber grommet placed in the drilled hole in the fender).

I am looking for creative (and hopefully somewhat simple) ways to elegantly route the dyno and light wires.

Dave,

I've had really good luck routing my wiring down the downtube, then gluing it inside the rear mudguard lip, exiting it out a small grommet-lined hole in my SKS rear 'guard to the rack-mounted taillight on my earlier Sherpa and current Nomad. I used Dean's R/C micro-connectors. Following my success, John Saxby performed a similar installation and seems equally pleased with the result. The internal wiring used on some of my other bikes is not possible with a Thorn thanks to their careful efforts to shield the tubes from direct water entry -- all the tube vents are shielded or internal, a real boon for extending tube life.

Here are some links with descriptions and photos of my wiring on two Thorns. Some of the photos were attached before our latest Forum upgrade and so have only generic thumbnails, but if you click on them, fullsize versions will appear:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3896.msg17113#msg17113
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4523.msg39091#msg39091
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4523.msg38847#msg38847 <==<<< This is the taillight-specific wiring post.

The same scheme can be used with a Raven, but routed under the top tube using the Rohloff and rear brake cable guides placed there, then making the jump to the rear mudguard at the Rohloff/V-brake cable stop. I'd suggest Dean's connectors here again, as they are reliable, don't corrode thanks to their gold plating, and allow removal or replacement of the rear mudguard or other components as necessary for maintenance or accident repair.

Light wiring of this sort can be expanded to include wiring for a charging system, as I did successfully twice on Thorns and a number of times on my other bikes and those of friends.  Variations of this wiring scheme have proven robust on my other bikes, including one with more than 32,000mi and another with mileage in excess of 28,000. It has also worked well for wiring my Extrawheel trailer with charging system and taillight.

Best,

Dan.

[djd828]

Thanks Dan for the comprehensive reply concerning the routing. I have not heard of those Dean connectors before. I can see how they could be beneficial. Can you tell me exactly what type of connector to use and how the wire attaches to them...any soldering involved?

[Danneaux]

Can you tell me exactly what type of connector to use and how the wire attaches to them...any soldering involved?

Hi Dave!

All part numbers and descriptions are in the first link in my above post:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3896.msg17113#msg17113

Yes, they require soldering. It is not difficult: Tin the ends of the connector and wire leads, then "flash" the connection with the hot iron tip to minimize heat transfer into the connector. Be sure to slide some head-shrink tubing well up the wire first, then after soldering move it onto place and shrink with a heat gun.

Dean's has recently redesigned some of their connectors. The Model 2NB, P/N 1002/1225 is still widely available in existing stocks, however. Some similar connectors use crimp connections, but are often not as reliable long-term and may not be gold-plated for corrosion resistance. The same concept can be employed using larger Supernova connectors.

You can find a number of references to wiring and connectors in the Forum archives if you use the search function. Most topics have been covered in detail, so it is a quick way to find answers without having to post and then await a reply. I wrote and posted a little tutorial on how to easily and effectively search the trove of information, available here:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4390.0

Best,

Dan.