Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Rohloff Internal Hub Gears => Topic started by: onebikeoneworld on February 19, 2017, 09:32:16 am
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When I researched my Thorn in the first place, I found so many people repeating the story that Rohloffs don't break. That Rohloff haven't had a failure in forever. Well, I've just had mine fail for the second time. I'm going to share my experiences here to act as a small counter balance to the pure positivity I see elsewhere.
A bit of background, I've owned my Thorn Raven since Feb 2011. I bought it in person in Bridgwater and had excellent service. I started my bike trip in the US in May 2011 and in the first couple of months broke 4 rear spokes. I got in touch with SJS and we got the issue resolved that day by going to a bike shop and getting the wheel completely rebuilt. Thorn paid for it and even called the bike shop to clarify the details. It turned out that they'd received a bad batch of spokes. Excellent service.
3 years later it was July 2014 and I was in southern Brazil when gears 4, 6 and 7 all started to slip. I'd be riding along and maybe every 3-4 revolutions of my pedal there'd be a slight slip rendering those 3 gears basically unusable. I got in touch with Rohloff, they suggested some measures such as performing an oil change which I had done and didn't seem to resolve the issue. They said no problem and sent me a new set of internals for my hub to Uruguay. I got it swapped out and obviously had to send the old internals back to them, but they were very nice and said it didn't matter when it would arrive as long as it did. A story I've told many people about how wonderful Rohloff customer service is.
That takes us to last year. My Rohloff again began to slip. It wasn't at the same level of consistency as it had been in 2014, but it also affected gears 4, 6, 7 as well as 11. It mainly seemed to happen when there was more pressure on. I was travelling in Northern Africa at the time and so there wasn't much of an option but to ignore it and not use those gears. I was home in the summer and for some reason the issue seemed to have disappeared as I couldn't reproduce it with some testing. In hindsight it seems that it it might have been down to the lack of weight on my bike, but I'm not sure. Anyway, I flew to Iceland and soon realised that the issue was still there. As it was more intermittent, it could basically be ignored and I used 3-4 of my 14 gears infrequently. By December gears 4, 6 + 7 had basically become unusable.
Fast forward to last month when I got home and in touch with SJS about the issue. I was told to send it in and they'd get it forwarded to Rohloff. Rohloff received the hub and refused to fix it under guarantee. They said that there was coagulated water inside and it was clearly my fault from submerging the hub. Apparently when that happens we have to do an immediate oil change or problems happen. The thing is, the Rohloff hub hasn't been submerged. I'm one of those long-distance tourers who generally follow the pavement. I'm not a big off-road person and so the number of streams that I ride through is 0. I don't buy their explanation, but they held fast and I was billed £230 to repair the hub. SJS were very helpful during this whole exchange as they have been each time I've contacted them.
I accept that having done 90,000km on it over the previous 6 years, you can say that it's a lot of wear and tear. I was just massively disappointed with the customer service that I'd received from Rohloff over this issue. Oh and by the way, I also managed to develop wobble in my wheel due to the bearings failing. Bottom line, Rohloffs break and Rohloff customer service is usually good but not always. On the other hand SJS service has always been spectacular.
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How does water coagulate?
£230 doesn't seem too bad for a repair as long as it sorts out the problem.
Unfortunate and annoying for you no doubt.
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How does water coagulate?
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It is coagulated oil/water
John
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well im not a fan of rohloff but 90,000 miles on one hub or did i read that wrong .
question now is are u going to buy another rohloff.
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90000k on the hub which has been fixed for £230 and now good for another 90000k :)
Bob
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I am not taking any side (pros-cons Rohloff). Mine has only 17000 km with no problems whatsoever. When touring in Tierra de Fuego I saw Rohloff cyclists wading rivers of considerable width by pushing off the bike with the Rohloff hub totally submerged, sometimes even for a few minutes. Although this way was very convenient (bicycle fully loaded and just one way trip) I preferred to take my time, unload the bike, cross the bike on my shoulder (hub outside the water) and in other 1 or 2 trips cross my luggage. A little bit more hustle and time consuming, but safer for the bicycle and gear. It is not worth to take any risk that might damage your bicycle when touring, it can jeopardize your trip or have consequences at medium or long term.
Blue feet after crossing rivers, for sure, the melted ice from the glaciers is bloody freezing :)
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Rohloff hubs do not come with a lifetime warranty. They come with a two year warranty.
It is unfortunate that your hub has failed twice, both times outside the warranty period, but, instead of feeling that you have been treated poorly by Rolloff, I think you should be thankful that they have charged you so little for repairs that they had no legal obligation to provide for free.
I wish you all the best, and at least another 90,000km of hopefully trouble free cycling.
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How does water coagulate?
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It is coagulated oil/water
John
How does oil and water coagulate?
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Sooo, I gather what happened is the OP expected it to need NO service except oil drops ??? WTH
The bearings went and let rain inside. NOT Rohloff's fault at all. This also may be why the gear slippage occurred. How many seal changes? What about backing off the cranks during shifts? 100% necessary IME. Mine has just 10,700 miles. with only a few weird noise episodes. Maybe I should do a seal change soon.
How many STUPID deFaillers would that equate to ???
My SA front dyno drum hub ate a sealed bearing at 17,000 miles. 4 balls turned to crumbs inside, but wrecked nothing. ha I put the new $8 part in expect another 20,000 miles.
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Sooo, I gather what happened is the OP expected it to need NO service except oil drops ??? WTH
The bearings went and let rain inside. NOT Rohloff's fault at all. This also may be why the gear slippage occurred. How many seal changes? What about backing off the cranks during shifts? 100% necessary IME. Mine has just 10,700 miles. with only a few weird noise episodes. Maybe I should do a seal change soon.
How many STUPID deFaillers would that equate to ???
My SA front dyno drum hub ate at sealed bearing at 17,000 miles. 4 balls turned to crumbs inside, but wrecked nothing. ha I put the new $8 part in expect another 20,000 miles.
To be fair, oil changes are the only recommended routine servicing for Rohloff hubs.
Seal changes are not an expected routine maintenance task.
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Sooo, I gather what happened is the OP expected it to need NO service except oil drops ??? WTH
The bearings went and let rain inside. NOT Rohloff's fault at all. This also may be why the gear slippage occurred. How many seal changes? What about backing off the cranks during shifts? 100% necessary IME. Mine has just 10,700 miles. with only a few weird noise episodes. Maybe I should do a seal change soon.
How many STUPID deFaillers would that equate to ???
My SA front dyno drum hub ate at sealed bearing at 17,000 miles. 4 balls turned to crumbs inside, but wrecked nothing. ha I put the new $8 part in expect another 20,000 miles.
To be fair, oil changes are the only recommended routine servicing for Rohloff hubs.
Seal changes are not an expected routine maintenance task.
In any event, the seals, some of them paper, are intended to keep crud out of the gearbox. They aren't even intended to keep oil in, so it should be obvious that if the hub is submerged, water will get in. All of this is described in the manual, which is available in clear English, with all components, functions, adjustments and actions beautifully photographed. I imagine an actually watertight hub would weigh at least twice as much, maybe even three times as much.
The OP basically got 90K out of a thousand pound gearbox, which is very good going, then another 90K of abuse for £230. Seems like a rather fair price to me. How many derailleur sets at what price in 90K?
"Coagulated water" is probably an oil and water mix foamed up by the eggbeater action of the hub's internals, with the detergents in the oil, the cause of the foam, later semi-solidifying. There would be a visible residue inside the hub.
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Given that the OP actually got a brand new set of internals in year 3 of the 6, he only got roughly 45,000km each out of the 2 failed Rohloff mechanisms, not 90,000km as mentioned above.
Is there a guarantee that the OP will get another 90,000km hassle free (or even 45,000km)? seems extremely unlikely since that's as far as he got twice previously with brand new moving parts; he's starting again with a lot of wear in his hub .... and I'd guess he'll have to pay again next time his hub fails.
If I was being cynical I would think that Rohloff's assertion that the OP had submerged his hub [and the second failure was therefore 'his fault'] was a ruse to maintain their claim that they've never had a hub fail in up to 70,000km use. The OP's assertion that he has never ridden through a stream puts a big question mark over the validity of Rohloff's claim.
The subject heading says it all really.
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How does water coagulate?
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It is coagulated oil/water
John
I think that the technical term is to emulsify.
Mike
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My own Rohloff hub failed to during my first longer (two month) trip to India.
In the beginning it was like a new chain skipping over a worn out sprocket, but then inside the hub, for only one of the gears. But it got worse and worse, and in the end I lost 8 of the 14 gears.
I contacted Rohloff, but it was Christmas time, and at that time they close the factory. They also close their factory in the summertime. Some people with knowledge of the hub suggested to give the hub a some blows on the axle from different sides with a rubber hammer. The hub is said to have "floating bearings", hitting them could help them settle in the right way. It didn't help.
So, as suggested by the Rohlff site I contacted their importers, and only the Australian importer replied and sent me an oil package to solve the problem. Due to idiotness of that Australian it cost me a week waiting and looking for the package in Bangalore/Bangaluru, and when using the oil it didn't solve the problem at all. (I was told to cycle a couple of days with a double amount of rinsing oil.)
Back at home Rohloff repaired the hub completely free of charge. On the accompanying slip they wrote they had "calibrated" the hub.
I think the problem lays in the axle of the hub. The axle has pawls going up and down, and I suspect those from not moving sufficiently.
Nowadays I always carry the tool to disassemble the sprocket with me, so I have the possibility to open the hub when on a tour. I also have a second wheel with Rohloff hub at home as spare now.
Indeed, Rohloffs are not invincible. The company gives great support, when they are not closed for holidays. One can better ignore the importers when in trouble.
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Here is an example of Rohloff customer service.it is a copy of a post my friend made a few years ago. The problem was nothing to do with the hub but the bike a Surly Troll which did not have the correct axle plate. He now has a Nomad.
Raymond's story
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd29/bobsimpson1953/2014BodenseeKonigssee286_zps80a0bd85.jpg) (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/bobsimpson1953/media/2014BodenseeKonigssee286_zps80a0bd85.jpg.html)
First thing's first, a big thank you to Stuart, who played a blinder and made the visit to the Rohloff factory, a complete pleasure.
Stuart amongst all the other things, deals with the English speaking customers and makes the whole process seamless.
Great to see customer service at the top of the list and not a dying art that you get with other companies.
Also dealing with someone who knows the product inside out, only inspires confidence in the Rohloff brand.
Bob & I, on our annual overseas trip had flown to Basal in Switzerland, 8 days previous, before boarding a train and boat towards Lindau in Germany
We would spend the following days cycling the Bodensee Konigssee Radweg, past some of the best alpine scenery.
Although we had taken camping equipment, we were fortunate, not to have used it.
Instead we stayed in Hostels, Pensions & Gasthaus.
Enroute my Rohloff had developed some slippage when gears 4, 6, 7 &11 were selected and although it did not affect the trip, it was more of an annoyance.
Prior to the trip I had replaced my shifter and converted my Rohloff to an EX box and was unsure if this was the reason.
On completion of the route and with 2 days left before flying out from Munich, we decided to email Rohloff with my concerns and see if they would they have a quick look at my hub, if we just turned up.
I left my phone number and stated that if it was okay could they call me as we would be onboard the train and making the 400 mile journey, from Berchestgaden to Kassel
Sure enough, enroute I received a call from Stuart and was advised to turn up and the mechanics would give it the once over and whilst that was being carried out, Stuart would give us a guided tour around the factory.
As we arrived in Kassel at 1600 hours on the Monday the factory would be closing soon and staff would be heading home.
We headed for the Kassel Youth Hostel, before making the 6km run out to the factory in Fultadal, so we would know the route on Tuesday morning as time was of the essence as we had to make sure we were in Munich Airport for 1900 hours for our flight home.
Tuesday morning we were on the Rohloff door step at 0645, just as the staff were rolling in.
Stuarts expecting you, grab yourself a coffee, he'll be in at 0700.
Needless to say my Rohloff was fixed, some new seals fitted and an oil change done.
Stuart, after explaining his role in the company, took us through the whole Rohloff build procedure, from axle to completed hub.
Having worked in the shop floor at the start of his career with Rohloff, he made short work of the build process.
We can now appreciate, why the Rohloff costs what it does after seeing its inner workings.
All parts made in Germany, with exceptional tolerances at every stage of the build.
An hour and half later and on our departure, the bossman and his wife made an appearance.
We'd like to think, that he heard we were in town, but in reality, we think that he likes to keep a hands on approach to his creations.
Mrs Rohloff gave us some Rohloff stories books.
All in all a great end to a cracking trip.
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Do we know how reliable Rohloffs are compared to conventional derailleur systems? Or is the problem that a Rohloff fails infrequently, but when they do the consequences are higher, they are more difficult and expensive to fix, and you are reliant on Rohloff to help you fix it?
Is the problem that Rohloff have overstated the reliability of the hub, so when one does fail, it is more of a surprise?
My Rohloff has been good, but I have only about 6000 km on it.
I have a Phil Wood cassette hub on my derailleur bike, they *never* fail, but mine failed in the middle of a big tour. Shit happens.
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Water is very destructive if it gets inside a hub gear, and I don't see why a Rohloff should be any different from a simple 3-speed in this respect.
The hubs I know most about are the old oil-lubricated Sturmey Archer 3 and 5 speeds. The labyrinth bearings on these hubs generally prevent significant water entry and in normal use, these hubs leak oil slightly through the big right-hand bearing, so any small amount of water that may get in is flushed out by periodic topping up with oil.
If you know a hub has risked significant water entry, like after fording a stream or riding through a flood, you can do something about it, for example strip and relubricate for Sturmey hubs. I don't know what the correct procedure is for a Rohloff, probably flush several times with cleaning oil, but I hope I will never have to find out.
Under some circumstances, probably unusual, I reckon water could get in without you knowing, maybe by condensation in unusual weather or perhaps prolonged riding in filthy wet conditions with a faulty seal. I suspect something like this happened to the original poster's Rohloff.
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Do we know how reliable Rohloffs are compared to conventional derailleur systems? Or is the problem that a Rohloff fails infrequently, but when they do the consequences are higher, they are more difficult and expensive to fix, and you are reliant on Rohloff to help you fix it?
Is the problem that Rohloff have overstated the reliability of the hub, so when one does fail, it is more of a surprise?
My Rohloff has been good, but I have only about 6000 km on it.
I have a Phil Wood cassette hub on my derailleur bike, they *never* fail, but mine failed in the middle of a big tour. Shit happens.
Mine has done 50,000km. It's had regular services and one repair due to a mess I made when extracting the sprocket. Otherwise it has not had any issues at all. It will at some point fail, as everything mechanical does but I've no idea when that will be. When it fails I'll get another if at all possible.
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It will at some point fail, as everything mechanical does but I've no idea when that will be. When it fails I'll get another if at all possible.
Yes, that sums it up. +1.
This thread is mislabeled: "Rohloffs are not invincible". No one can disagree with that bald statement, because everything does eventually wear out. But in nearly 30 years not enough Rohloffs have broken to establish a pattern and thus a number for the expected service life.
A Shimano Nexus hub, for instance, has an MTBF rating, a mean time between failure period, which we normally take as its service life because the thing is so cheap that it makes more sense to replace it with a new one than to repair it. I can't remember whether the Shimano Nexus MTBF is 30K or 50K (or both, miles and kilometers). It doesn't matter. The facts are that it is a less capable box than a Rohloff, and generally speaking isn't expected to last as long.
It seems to me that in the OP's hands, on the most restrictive calculation in this thread, 45K might be a reasonable life expectancy for a Rohloff gearbox, which is then repaired for £235, rather than replacing a £1000 gearbox completely. That's already an advantage.
Or £235 will get you a Shimano Nexus gearbox, which I admire, even though I wore out two before 5K.
I'd rather have the Rohloff for £235 every 45K than a Shimano Nexus (even if the Shimano were to last the same 45K, which in my hands it never has).
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Something else only fleetingly touched on by any of the posters in this thread: I understand that, because of the amount of custom-fitting in the construction of a Rohloff box, each one is slightly different, and even in Germany there is a chance of a rare rogue box, but a box with 90K on it before it costs anything for repairs doesn't fit that description, not even near. I think it is unreasonable to complain, or to expect a second 90K without any cost from a thousand pound bike gearbox. If you get it, it is a bonus, cause for dancing in the streets, but if you don't you can't complain you were oversold: the Rohloff has a clearly stated two year guarantee.
Cars these days are designed to last 100K, they cost a great deal more than a thousand pounds, and nobody says, "Oh, Mercedes isn't invincible."
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A Shimano Nexus hub, for instance, has an MTBF rating, a mean time between failure period, which we normally take as its service life because the thing is so cheap that it makes more sense to replace it with a new one than to repair it. I can't remember whether the Shimano Nexus MTBF is 30K or 50K (or both, miles and kilometers). It doesn't matter. The facts are that it is a less capable box than a Rohloff, and generally speaking isn't expected to last as long.
Or £235 will get you a Shimano Nexus gearbox, which I admire, even though I wore out two before 5K.
My Shimano Nexus Premium 8 hubs cost substantially less than £235, as I had to buy them online (not available locally here in France). I got mine from Germany.
I currently have 3 Nexus hubs in service, an 8-speed on my Thorn Raven Tour utility bike, an 8-speed on my wife's bike and a 7-speed on one of the visitor bikes.
AFAIK, the Shimano Nexus series were, and maybe still are, vulnerable to water entering through the large right hand bearing. These hubs are grease-lubricated from the factory, so do not normally have the oil-flush feature of the old Sturmey Archer 3 and 5 speeds. There are several online accounts of Nexus 8 hubs destroyed by water entry when used in wet conditions.
I remove the internal from the shell when receiving new Nexus hubs, lubricate the external bearings with a generous amount of outboard motor grease and dunk the innards in synthetic oil. I repeat the process about once a year.
This invalidates any guarantee and is slightly more hassle than the Rohloff oil change, but has so far given good results for me. Nexus hubs seem to run more efficiently with oil rather than the factory grease.
Online reports suggest that Nexus hubs will run for a long time if protected from water entry and if the cable is kept properly adjusted (the latter is much more critical than for a Rohloff). If I get around 5,000 kms from them I will be happy.
Nexus 8 premium and Alfine 8 hubs have some of the same advantages over derailleurs as Rohloff - low maintenance, relatively clean and easy to operate by someone who doesn't want to learn how to use two gear shifters. The 3 most often quoted disadvantages of a Nexus 8 (and most other hub gears) compared to derailleurs are:
- less gear range. Not an issue for me for local use, but would be for touring mountainous areas.
- lower efficiency. I did some timed rides after converting my old mountain bike from 3x7 derailleur to Nexus 8 Premium and noticed hardly any difference. Factor in the time gained by doing less transmission maintenance and Nexus 8 premium is faster. The older Nexus 7 hub I have is noticeably less efficient, so is currently on a visitor bike only used for fairly short rides.
- weighs more. The difference is about the same as a Rohloff compared to a derailleur transmission, a few hundred grams. Not an issue for me.
As André states, they are cheap enough to replace when they fail. I recently bought two more Nexus 8 premium hubs, one is due to go on a projected "new" bike that will replace the oldest of my two visitor bikes (a 3-speed that dates from the 1970's) and the other will probably replace the Nexus 7 on the newest existing visitor bike.
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This thread is mislabeled: "Rohloffs are not invincible". No one can disagree with that bald statement, because everything does eventually wear out. But in nearly 30 years not enough Rohloffs have broken to establish a pattern and thus a number for the expected service life.
The Rohloff hub is sold as being very reliable, leaving the impression at some (non-technical?) people they cannot fail. Then the disappointment if they do fail is bigger.
The impossibility for any repairs on them makes it worse.
To save a holiday there is the possibility to send a spare internal. Rohloff has some internals, and some bike shops in the Netherlands have them, perhaps SJS have some too. But these internals are limited and not sent at the first demand: the sender wants to be sure it is really required. So, as cyclist you have to convince the sender, with all communication involved, which on some locations is very difficult.
This is a disadvantage that is not well advertised. And Rohloff hubs do fail, and those failures are not very well advertised either. Probably only Rohloff knows how many hubs fail, and they changed their service only recently. Hence I got the service for my old secondhand Rohloff hub for free (old style), while onebikeoneworld had to pay (new style).
Edit: corrected deception -> disappointment
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rohloff great for around town cycling.useless crap.
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Anto, Have you ever tried a bike fitted with a Rohloff. It's a pity Mark Beaumont didn't know that when he cycled around the world, he might have done it faster. ;)
Bob
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bob i'm a big fan of mark true gentleman for sure but he was sponsored on that ride all his road bike are dura ace or campag.
i can't for the life of see what advantage rohoff hubs have over deraileur gears .sorry about spelling :o
yeah you can keep your rohloff good for postmen and butcher delivery boys not for this kid.
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bit harsh Anto
you can change gear at a stand still, and you get to hang out with all the Kool Kids in the hoff club ;)
but as iggy pop said its a heavy price for a heavy pose
op what now carry on with the repaired wheel and hope it's now reliable, buy a new wheel (wince), or ditch the frame on ebay n start afresh? another hoff or once burnt is enough?
what do you do with a dead grand's worth of wheel? you couldn't in all good concience sell it, or could you?
not trying to be a jerk, but i can't see why people pay so much for something that is ultimately just an expensive gear changer with a limeted gear range that if plays up your screwed
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iggy knows his stuff Bill and knows his bikes .i watch a lot of cycle touring films on utube well that's what us armchair tourers do ;)
you see a lot of guys using warmshowers and excepting the generous gifts like food money water or whatever from complete strangers especially in poorer country's ,
but little do these people know the poor guys on the bikes most of them ride bike worth more than the houses these people live in .
rohloff hubs top of the range frames and gear hilleberg tents that cost the feckin earth to buy ,where will it all end i ask meself :'(
snobbery at its best rohloff and hilly there well matched.
anto on a rant sorry.
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but as iggy pop said its a heavy price for a heavy pose
Yeah, man, but is a heavy pose.
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hi Anto
i 'm just having a pop back for all the smug comments about derallieurs, or defailers ::) or other childish names they get called
i'm only here cos i love my |Vanila Thorns (did i mention i just picked up a time warp 2003 Klien? 8) it was a 2004 Klien that brought me here in the first place so back to my roots )
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This thread is mislabeled: "Rohloffs are not invincible". No one can disagree with that bald statement, because everything does eventually wear out. But in nearly 30 years not enough Rohloffs have broken to establish a pattern and thus a number for the expected service life.
The Rohloff hub is sold as being very reliable, leaving the impression at some (non-technical?) people they cannot fail. Then the deception if they do fail is bigger.
I think you mean "Then the disappointment if they do fail is bigger," because there really is no "deception" here. All these stories of fabulous service, including yours, preclude any deception because implicit in them is the certain knowledge that hub must first have broken before the fabulous service could come into play.
In fact the stories of emergency service, fabulously free or not, are themselves the OP's defense of the truth of his thread title "Rohloffs are not invincible".
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sure if u can't have a laugh you might as well start playing golf ,
oh no im not having a go at golfers ,well im am but sure what about it ;D ;D.
bill it's all fun ;)
anto
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My Shimano Nexus Premium 8 hubs cost substantially less than £235, as I had to buy them online (not available locally here in France). I got mine from Germany.
The £235 is an approximation I took from the OP's bill from Rohloff for repairs. I remember the wide range of prices on the net for Nexus boxes and wheels when I was shopping for them a few years ago. (Tip for those looking for a Shimano Nexus box: buy the whole wheel, buy it only with a fitting kit of rotary control, cables and brackets, and buy it in the winter when the manufacturers sell off made-up wheels not used for the assembly of sold bikes, when you can get amazing bargains.)
If I get around 5,000 kms from them I will be happy.
Well, maybe I'm just a wrecker, or maybe I was unlucky. In The Netherlands there are Shimano Nexus hubs, typically wretchedly neglected, that soldier on for many, many tens of thousands of klicks, so I wouldn't put my neck on the block with a generalization from my very limited experience with the Shimano. I liked the Nexus hubs I had a lot; in some respects, if not sturdiness, they are initially superior to the Rohloff, or at least more convenient and instantly lovable, whereas the Rohloff needs time to grow on you.
The difficulty of getting the "oil bath" Shimano Nexus gear hub service kit (and its price, twice the Rohloff service kit's price!) tells you that almost nobody actually services Nexus hubs; they just run them into the ground and replace them.
I think your scheme with the oil and the marine grease is superior, but too much trouble for me. A large part of the attraction of the Rohloff for me is how easily it fits into my no-fuss-no-bother near-zero maintenance/replacement scheme of operating my bicycle. In that perspective the Nexus hub gearbox, at least in my hands, is a consumable.
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It should also be noted that Thorn subsidized the repair to reward his high mileage efforts and confidence in our product so the final bill was £156.73.
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That was never mentioned in the original post. An example of Thorn's excellent customer service.
Bob
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SJS Thorn customer service is second to none by attending your queries and replying with deep knowledge. A number of times they surprised me with free replacement of parts that were not under guaranty, by their own initiative. Top quality service, no doubt.
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To be fair to the OP he was very positive about SJS and it's service. He was also very positive about Rohloff until the last issue. I would disagree with the contention that Rohloff had an obligation to repair something of this vintage FOC. Nevertheless, his post makes the valid point that nothing is infallible and that there will always be a risk of failure. However, two failures in 90,000 km of tough touring sounds not unreasonable to me.
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I don't think that many Rohloff owners think that their hub is infallible. Most will have a great deal of confidence that they will do the job that they were bought for.
Bob
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I don't think that many Rohloff owners think that their hub is infallible. Most will have a great deal of confidence that they will do the job that they were bought for.
Bob
swap rohloff for derallieur gears and your statement is true of deralliuers, cant imagine anyone spending out on decent kit and not having confidence that they will do the job they were bought for
but with derallieurs a total fail of one part isn't going to set you back a grand or make it so it isn't cost effective to repair your bike
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swap rohloff for derallieur gears and your statement is true of deralliuers, cant imagine anyone spending out on decent kit and not having confidence that they will do the job they were bought for
but with derallieurs a total fail of one part isn't going to set you back a grand or make it so it isn't cost effective to repair your bike
Neither will it with a Rohloff. The OP had two failures which set him back £156.73
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That's about the cost of a Shimano XTR rear derailleur .
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yea and now he has a wheel that has failed him twice before,
how far would you trust it this time?
enough to exchange your good wheel for it?
c'mon someone even took a pop at anto's new build saying it would look less cluttered/ have better lines with a Hoff
are we mech users supposed to take it on the chin and never respond with like for like comments?
hoff non hoff almost as devisive as brexiteers and remoaners ::)
atb Bill
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Maybe the best solution is that Thorn make their frames both Rohloff and derailleur compatible by adding a few cable stops and a hanger. Then you could change between the two , best of both worlds. I was going to say upgrade to a Rohloff but I won't.
Bob
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hi Bobs
if they did put a mech hanger on the frames i'd probably buy a Nomad frame instead of the troll that i keep eyeing up
but then i'd want the dedicated 10mm bob/trailer hitch mounting point, no pleasing some people is there ;)
edited typo
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Bill, I had a Troll before my Nomad. It was a good frame but rubbish paintwork. I found the straight forks very uncomfortable. It is however a very versatile do it all frame.
Bob
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I've come close to ordering one a couple of times, they didn't have any in stock for months when i looked at the beginning of the year, someone locally advertised a 2003 Klein Attitude a few weeks ago and the money went on that instead,
tbh i think i'd prefer one of the older ones as the new one sounds a bit ott for my needs
the paints not a problem they sell decal sets so any colour you like and new decals
they must be decent bikes rarely see one secondhand, and the ones that do come up are for the vertically challenged
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Great topic and thoughtful contributions.
I learn so much from this site.
All this talk about hub failures (or not) has got me a wondering as to whether or not I should return my own hub for a service.
It doesn't skip or wobble or leak.
I change the oil in a regular basis.
I bought the Raven second hand so although I log my milage, I have no idea of the total on the clock.
I like to tour abroad once a year so don't fancy a breakdown away from home.
Should a factory service be considered in the same way as an oil change?
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I'm not sure there is such a thing as a 'factory service'.
What would they do on a hub that's running fine, other than change the oil?
They could change the seals i guess but if they aren't causing a problem why bother.
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Speaking of Fail-eurs, go to YouTube and check out the daily videos of the 2014 15 Asian country tour of Ray Pokai, from Australia.
He is an overly tall guy at 115 kg + bike, but still his failures were epic on a Surly bike with deluxe components. 2 or 3 rims broke, 3 or 4 deR hubs with one a Phil 40+ spokes. Pawls were the weak link. This was in about 6.200 miles I think. Anyway, he NOW has a Rohloff. LOL
IMO ... my Rohloff14 is laughably SIMPLE to use will outperform ANYTHING else, any day of the week. 10,700 miles with 3 oil changes and ZERO shifter fiddling. Mine crashed 4 times, got plastered in mud, survived 6 airplane transfers, buried in 2 all day bus rides and got me up clay slime mountains with miles at 10%. This on a 170 + 120 lb bike that still passed trucks going uphill and Honda 150s going downhill. Just avoiding endless cringe worthy double shifts is worth a million $. There is a reason that deraileur luddites endlessly seek weight wennieness....
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All this talk about hub failures (or not) has got me a wondering as to whether or not I should return my own hub for a service.
Interesting idea. I've not noticed any accounts of someone sending a Rohloff hub back for service when it hasn't had a problem.
I've been running Sturmey Archer S5/2 hubs on some family bikes for over 35 years, and I did once send one to a hub gear specialist for an overhaul (IIRC at somewhere about the 30,000 km mark).
Having seen the diagrams of the Rohloff and regularly stripped and rebuilt Sturmey hubs, I reckon the Rohloff has much beefier parts, so it should last a great deal longer than 30,000 kms before normal wear is an issue.
But the Rohloff is much more complicated so there are more things to break in a random fashion, even if it is much beefier.
I don't think a factory service is very likely to detect a random breakage before it occurs, so my own opinion is just to do the oil changes, avoid submerging the hub, and not worry too much about any failure until it happens.
On another tack, I reckon a Rohloff hub would be just as vulnerable to flange breakage after a fall as a derailleur hub. I did crack a flange on a derailleur hub once, after falling off on an icy concrete cycle path originally built by German occupation forces to link pillboxes built on the Atlantic coast south of Bordeaux. I was lucky, because the flange held up for the rest of the tour (several hundred kms) and failed (3 spokes ripped out of the hub) just a few hundred metres from home. That kind of thing I would consider a rare incident, and not worry about it until it happens.
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There is a reason that deraileur luddites endlessly .......
if only you wrote that at the beginning of your post it would of saved me reading the rest
you say luddite i say retro grouch
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Another thought on Rohloffs and failures - I would compare a Rohloff to a car gearbox rather than a derailleur - car gearbox, just change the engine oil at defined intervals, but if something goes wrong, too complicated for me to repair and I have to depend on service from a garage.
A derailleur system is relatively simple (perhaps excluding the combined brake-gear levers which weren't around when I was using mainly derailleurs), I can generally see what is going wrong, and I can change the parts myself. But in my opinion, with slightly less than half my cycling on derailleur bikes and slightly more than half on Sturmey, SRAM, Shimano and (recently) Rohloff hub gears, derailleur systems need substantially more cleaning than hub gears and break more often.
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cant imagine anyone spending out on decent kit and not having confidence that they will do the job they were bought for
The difficulty here is, one tends to generalise from the particular (my own experience, for example) to the general. You know it's a fallacy to do so (or you should), but what matters in a personal sense is one's own experience. My experience was that I bought "decent kit": Shim T105 in a ti-framed touring bike, and over ten-plus years, I had endless and apparently insoluble derailleur problems, esp with the rear der (this, despite changing about four drivetrains.) We don't need to detail the 'orrible details, nor their expense, because I've repressed everything. The 'orrible details did include a variety of Shim products, all considered good quality, if not top-of-the-range.
Suffice to say that, on a hot late-summer afternoon on loaded bike on a 10-plus% grade in the Madawaska Highlands, when my forever-out-of-adjustment-rear-der refused to, or couldn't, give me the low gear I wanted, I decided, "Sod it. Too much is enough. There has to be some other approach here."
Eventually, I found my way to a Rohloff, mated to a Thorn frame-and-fork-set, and in the three-plus years since, no matter the load or the gradient, I haven't had any moments of existential despair triggered by non-functioning gear mechanisms. I have tested the Thorn-mit-Rohloff against the highest road passes in North America, and except for an unseemly mini-clank near the summit of Washington Pass (later traced to a loosening crank bolt) I didn't even think about my gears.
This is personal experience--I make no broader claims than that, and especially, no claims to general validity. The point, I guess, is that I don't much care about "general validity": in my experience, over a decade-plus with soi-disant "quality components", I had an endless stream of expensive and time-consuming headaches. With the Rohloff, I've had none at all. I've had a few problems with my Thorn bike, mostly linked to rims. These were not Thorn-specific, and none of them was debilitating or insoluble, or even very expensive. With the drive train, I've had no problems worth mentioning. I've made some tweaks in the ring/sprocket ratio, and in the Hebie chainglider, but the hub has been trouble-free. This history is wholly different from my experience with derailleurs.
I realize that my experience has been quite different from that of many other riders, and all I can say is that I wish that I'd had their experience...but I reckon that four drive trains from a reputable supplier over a decade-plus of cycling in three continents is a reasonable test, and I had reached the limits of my patience.
So Bill, whatever you may imagine, my practical experience is directly, comprehensively and expensively contrary. Wish it were otherwise, as I've suggested above, but as the song says, "Wishin' don't make it so."
Cheers, John
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Hi John
never had a major fail with xt/xtr, don't want anything on a bike that i can't fix myself or stand a good chance of replacing said duff component at the nearest lbs, cant see why anyone would buy anything for a bike that needs a technician or to be sent to Germany for repairs,
i reckon some/most of the hoff sales go to people who can't fix a bike themselves so have to rely on the claimed reliability, wonderful service
is that an unfair claim by me?
i don't think so, take a look at the threads on here hundreds asking inane questions about and for help on hoffs, some owners have even asked about how to replace forks and headsets ::) on their hoff wonder bikes, but i can't remember reading a post on here where anyone needed advice on a derailleur setup
each to their own, its just the smugness of hoff owners that everyone who doesn't buy into it must be a deluded fool, skint, or in denial does irk me
i thought about it long and hard and no matter how i look at it cant see anything to make me want one (never been one of the kool kids so to be in or out the kool klub isn't an issue)
btw millions of derailleur bikes out there doing what they do reliably and with out fuss, yea they need maintanance but how hard is that? if you can't maintain/repair your own bike should you really be riding places where there maybe no help?
atb Bill
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Sorry if what I suggest here has been done or attempted before.
There is nothing better than good data to assess Rohloff hub durability and reliability. Maybe our well organised Administrator (Danneaux) could open a spreadsheet which we could populate with information like: Rohloff hub number, mileage when Rohloff needed repair, type of failure, repaired under warranty, cost of repair, actual mileage with no problems,...
For sure it will not be as good as the information stored by Rohloff (which will never be available) but a good reference point.
Just an idea.
Javier
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Maybe our well organised Administrator (Danneaux) could open a spreadsheet which we could populate with information...
A worthy suggestion, Javier, and I'll give it some thought. Execution and validity would have some limitations due to the small population of entries and the data would need to be verified to separate self-reports ("My own, serial #### required service for xxxx at yyyy kilometers' use) from anecdotal accounts (the "I ran into a guy while touring that..." sort of thing). Other variables affecting outcome might well include owner adherence to oil-change intervals, water/pressure exposure, overfilling, and positional factors (in the case of undue leakage) or simple cable misadjustments (i.e. too tight, thus affecting smooth shifting).
From what I have read (anecdotally), it seems Rohloff doesn't fully explain what was needed for repairs when they are done; the hubs are repaired and returned fairly quickly with minimal explanation.
On the one hand, any information on repairs would be helpful, but on the other, assembling a valid database with a reasonable population from which to draw inferences and conclusions could be daunting. I'm pondering how it could be done in a way to draw any sort of meaningful result.
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The bikes in my fleet have both kinds of drivetrains and I like them equally. The overwhelming majority (also those with the longest use and greatest mileage) have derailleurs, while two have IGHs (1 Sturmey_Archer 3-sp and my Nomad's Rohloff). All have proven equally reliable and problem-free for me in my use, provided I maintain them regularly (I do). Forum member AndyBG very kindly loaned me his RavenTour in 2014, and it never once missed a shift or demonstrated any problems in ~9,000km of use in all weather conditions. I've also known people who have had problems with each. I never, ever "swim" my bikes (submerge either kind of drivetrain...I portage bike and bags separately across streams), and this may be a factor in my success.
I often tour in really remote areas where a failure (or turned ankle) could be very problematic if not fatal. For this reason, I make sure I take appropriat spares with me --cables and spare oil change kit for the Rohloff and the assortment of tools recommended by Thorn's designer Andy Blance in his _Living With a Rohloff_ publication. For my derailleur bikes, I also carry an assortment of spares --cables, quick-links for the chain, an emergency derailleur hanger, sometimes an spare entire chain, as there are no bike shops where I go and I find my derailleur bikes eat chains at a much faster rate than the IGH drivetrains due to chain deflection and environmental conditions (i.e. concretized playa). While it has been ages since I have had a failure of any kind while touring, anything *can* fail, so I try to plan for a way out. I once had my freewheel pawl springs fail, but zip-tying the largest cog to the spokes in several places gave me "enough" of a fixed gear to finish my tour safely (I've done this long enough to have used Regina freewheels from the pre-SunTour era -- and remembered to take spare pawl springs and a center-punch to drive off the freewheel cover plate so I could replace the dratted things roadside). In either case, a failure might mean I no longer have a full range of gears available, but so long as I have some sort of drive, I can likely get out in a timely manner.
Best,
Dan.
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I think that's a bit harsh Bill, I'm sure a lot of it is just banter.
I'm fortunate to have both Rohloff and derailleur setups on Thorn bikes and service and repair them myself. The only thing I won't attempt is wheel building, I'll leave that to people with more knowledge and experience of that particular job. I don't think one system is better than the other overall and they each have advantages in certain areas.
When choosing my first decent bike back in 2011 I weighed up the pros and cons of each and decided that for my usage of commuting to work all year round and the odd tour the Rohloff would suit my needs better. I agree that a derailleur equipped bike would have done the job also but I'm convinced that it would have needed more maintenance. I work 12 hour shifts and have other hobbies/interests so don't really want to be spending more time than I have to fettling with my bike.
As with most things in life there are compromises, and it's whatever suits your needs best. At the end of the day we're all riding Thorns.
Regards,
Neil
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Maybe we could just have a thread where folks could post problems that have come up and whatever resolution. I expect most folks will never have any problem beyond the routine wearing of sprockets and cables.
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Neil
i was joking mate, well except for the smugness bit as that does irk me ;)
you hoffers are always having pops at our expense, it's nice to be able to have a bit of payback 8)
if they are as reliable as you all say i might not get the chance of a wind up for ages so grabbed the chance :P
atb Bill
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oh i do love slagging off the rohloff lads they really don't like it you know ;D ;D
as bad as the hilliB owners ,
Bill i met Neill he's a good laugh nice fella he likes a bit of banter like most of the guys here .how i didn't get barred years ago i'll never know.
anto.
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You would be sadly missed Anto, you are always good for a laugh and don't take things too seriously.
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Maybe we could just have a thread where folks could post problems that have come up and whatever resolution. I expect most folks will never have any problem beyond the routine wearing of sprockets and cables.
In order to not biased the information we should record both, problems and no problems when riding a Rohloff (or other gear hub, derailleur,...). I am sure that Danneaux will come with something well thought and useful
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You would be sadly missed Anto, you are always good for a laugh and don't take things too seriously.
t.v. ;) cheers bob: lifs to short to be angry with people have the craic as long as your notdoing anyone anyharm.
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"Maybe we could just have a thread where folks could post problems that have come up and whatever resolution. I expect most folks will never have any problem beyond the routine wearing of sprockets and cables. "
In order to not biased the information we should record both, problems and no problems when riding a Rohloff (or other gear hub, derailleur,...). I am sure that Danneaux will come with something well thought and useful
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I am sure that Danneaux will come with something well thought and useful...
Thanks for your kind words and faith in me, Javier.
I will put my thinking cap on. ;)
All the best,
Dan.
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I have been out of town bike touring, thus missed the past three weeks of banter on the Rohloff. Early in this thread, there was mention of water intrusion into the hub. If you mix oil and water and provide a lot of mechanical mixing, it can form a viscous emulsion. And the water will continue to corrode and rust things in that scenario. I never did figure out how the water was getting into my Triumph T100R gearbox, but every gear oil change, the emulsion was thick and poured out of the drain hole pretty slowly. The internal parts were pretty rusty too, but fortunately it kept running for the 12 years that I rode that bike.
Three years ago I met a gal that had been touring for seven consecutive years. She estimated that her (non-Rohloff) bike had 100,000 km on it. She cited how many times various parts of the bike had been replaced, I think the frame was the only thing still original.
I would be pretty unhappy if Rohloff told me that I had submerged my hub when I had not. But on the other hand if it had gone 90,000 km before the second time that the internals needed replacement, I would be pretty happy. I needed major engine work with a similar distance on my Jeep pickup truck and my Land Rover D2.
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Interesting idea. I've not noticed any accounts of someone sending a Rohloff hub back for service when it hasn't had a problem.
I did that after 2 years and +15k miles.
The first summer I did a very wet tour around the UK. The hub must have been underwater at least 5 times.
The second summer I did a tour around Iceland.
So I sent it back to be checked over before touring to the Black Sea and back.
Since then it's done another 3 years and +20k miles.
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Interesting idea. I've not noticed any accounts of someone sending a Rohloff hub back for service when it hasn't had a problem.
I did that after 2 years and +15k miles.
The first summer I did a very wet tour around the UK. The hub must have been underwater at least 5 times.
The second summer I did a tour around Iceland.
So I sent it back to be checked over before touring to the Black Sea and back.
Since then it's done another 3 years and +20k miles.
And how much did the service cost you and what was done to the hub for the service?
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My Alfine 8 has been problem free after 10,000 miles plus and four years - am a fairweather cyclist but it has got caught in the rain a few times, but no submersion, tiger crossings! Three oil changes.