Author Topic: Where to start?  (Read 8190 times)

Austerby

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Where to start?
« on: August 06, 2014, 11:47:50 AM »
I'm a bit confused by all the choices and options!

A bit of background - I've always had a bike but my cycling has been city-based, either commuting or shopping / pub trips. A ride of more than an hour or further than, say, 15 miles is rare. I do occasionally put the bike in the back of the car and take it to the country and have a 30 mile day's ride following a guide-book route. My bikes have always been off-the-shelf hybrids - currently on a Giant Escape M1, which is very much specc'd for city riding.

Oh, I'm 48, not fit, overweight, like beer and cake a bit too much. I'm not planning on wearing a lycra cycling suit, ever. Oh, and I really struggle to get up much more than a modest gradient - hills are my enemy on a bike.

I enjoy my cycling and would like to do more and am starting to look for my next bike - and I want something that'll last me 20 years, so I'm looking at the quality end of the market.

I have been thinking about a touring bicycle but to be quite honest I'm not planning on any major adventures. The sort of thing I have in mind is a couple of weeks or so cycling through France, for example, travelling light and staying in charming, cheap, local hotels.

I'd also like to do more of the country day-rides, either taking my bike out of London on the train or on a bike rack on the car.

There's quite a few Thorn bikes that could fit these requirements but I'm really don't have the knowledge to make an informed decision.

Where should I start?

in4

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2014, 11:54:52 AM »
Welcome  :) Plenty of advice readily offered here.
Quick reponse for now: If you don't want a rohloff hub a Thorn Audax might be just the thing. If you do want a rohloff its probably a Raven or even a Mercury.
The people at SJS are really very helpful and its well worth giving them a call.
I'm sure others will chip in shortly.

Relayer

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2014, 12:50:09 PM »
Welcome to the forum Austerby.

Here is my take on your question ...

A touring bike is a very versatile machine that will cover a lot of bases apart from touring.

Given that you do a lot of city riding I would imagine straight bars would be best. I would suggest firstly a Thorn Club Tour with tyre 32mm or 35mm wide, these will give some comfort over city roads. The Audax will be a bit lighter and faster but not so forgiving on bad city road surfaces.

A Sherpa would take 2 inch tyres, but it is a heavy bike designed to carry heavy loads, not a good fit to your criteria.

If I were you I wouldn't go to the expense of a Rohloff hub bike, I think you need to put in a high mileage each year to get a decent return on your investment, even over 20 years ... unless of course spending a lot of money isn't a problem. I would also imagine a Rohloff could attract attention from cycle thieves in the city; it depends if you can always keep it well secured.

So, a flat barred Club Tour with 35mm tyres is my tuppence worth.   ;)

Jim


jags

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2014, 02:18:04 PM »
welcome again  ;)

Jim is near enough spot on with his choice only if your used to riding straight bars, me i use drops on my Audax.My audax is super smooth fast enough and great on hills it will take 28 tyres which might suit you,i use 700x 23 racing slicks on custom wheels.
the audax will also take  racks front and rear i only use rear ,which would be plenty good enough for what you want to do.
but yeah either the Audax or club tour will suit you perfect  both have 700c wheels the rest of the  thorn range are 599 well except for one which escapes my tiny mind. ::)

cheers
jags.

JimK

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2014, 03:07:37 PM »
Yeah the Club Tour would be a very smart choice. Very versatile! Here is one that's out and about:

http://www.pbase.com/image/116670711

I think the Nomad has two main advantages: 1) the Rohloff hub, which is a bit tougher, lower maintenance, and allows relatively brain-less shifting (i.e. no cross chaining issues); 2) can haul heavier loads over rougher terrain. I like to use, or anyway would like to use, my bike as a utility hauling machine. I can really load up with groceries and even hitting rough potholes I don't really worry about breaking anything.

honesty

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2014, 09:02:16 AM »
I'd say Club Tour. I have an audax, which is a very nice machine, but the club tour is just slightly more versatile. Someone on here has also mentioned in the past that there is a weight limit on the Audax which may mean that it's not a good idea either - check with Thorn before you buy. Finally the club tour can be set up with straight or drop bars and disc brakes if that's your thing.

Rohloff is very nice, but rather expensive, I would be tempted to look at a Mercury if I were going that route. So I guess it depends on your budget!

Austerby

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2014, 12:17:14 PM »
Very helpful comments, thank you.

Neither the Club Tour or the Audax were bikes I was considering so thank you for bringing them to my attention. I think of the two the Club Tour would more than meet my likely needs.

As mentioned before, I struggle with hills - they're my enemies on a bicycle, yet they're difficult to avoid if you want to ride any attractive countryside.

I see lots of options for gearing and chainsets but it's not clear to me how they translate into hill-climbing effectiveness - which are the key bits to focus on and which of the various figures/ratios/gears mentioned are the most critical to understand?

honesty

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2014, 01:02:53 PM »
Having a look at the pure gear ratio (i.e. the ratio between the front gear to the back gear) having a smaller ratio helps. For example on a normal road bike the ratio at the top end could be 50 (teeth) to 11 (teeth) or 50:11 or 4.55:1 which means for every 1 turn of the pedals the rear wheel will turn 4.55 times. At the bottom end of the gear range on my touring bike I have a ratio of 26:32 or 0.8125:1, so my back wheel is actually turning faster than I pedal.

On top of this you have to take into consideration the size of the wheel (and tyre!), which is where people come up with a measurement called gear inches - the number of inches that the bike will actually go for each full turn of the pedal. There's online calculators for this. I use the Sheldon Brown one here

The lowest sets of gearing you can find are from mountain bike setups - 22:36 for example - and where with current modern gears flat bars really help. You cant get modern 11 speed mountain gear trains to work with road gear shifters or mount on drop bars. Saying that the lowest you get from a current modern 10 speed road system is pretty low, and should see you over most hills even if you do pootle up at 3pmh!

Andre Jute

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2014, 03:01:34 PM »
You could start by defnining the purpose of the  bike you want, as you've been doing, and make the component decisions on hand of that. By way of example:

Do you want to travel fast or be comfortable? If you choose speed, you might choose drop bars. If you choose comfort, you may want to sit more upright and use well-cranked bars, or even city (North Road) bars, and you will absolutely insist on forks wide enough to use balloon tyres (47mm and up) with space left over for mudguards. A fast, lightweight narrow-tyred bike ("a light tourer") might have derailleurs. A low maintenance bike, fast enough but more adaptable all round, would have hub gears; many of us swear by the outstanding 14-speed German hub gearbox made by Rohloff.

Suppose you choose comfort and a Rohloff. To start with, given your age and present condition, and the fact that you intend credit card touring, 38x16 gears will let you pedal relatively easily but not necessarily quickly up most hills you will meet though you must resign yourself to freewheeling down the steepest hills as you run out of gears at the top; 38x17 would be lower (i.e. slower) to get you up steeper hills still, but probably unnecessary. Depending on precisely what you mean by unfit, 42x17 gears may be within your reach. It is better to undergear and get up the hills than to overgear and have your holiday ruined when you discover you don't have the legs and the lungs consistently to pull that high a gear train. Many Thorns have 17 tooth sprockets, and the cheapest sprocket, supplied free with new Rohloff boxes, is 16T, so a good choice that leaves your options open is 38x17, or the standard 38x16 favoured by many owners; if you find this combination too slow, a new chainring is cheap to buy and you can sell a barely used one on here, or just give it away. This also leaves you with the option of using a Hebie Chainglider to cover the transmission, which reduces maintenance tremendously.

Let's take another example, the saddle, a very, very important interface with your bike. If you want to go fast, you'll have a certain forward posture on the bike, and will use a narrow saddle, because that is what works with the posture. You may be used to a narrow saddle from past cycling, but there are alternatives that come with different cycling outlooks. A more upright, semi-sporting or comfort, stance on the bike requires a wider saddle, and the sprung Brooks have their fans, for good reasons, including that you can be hours in the saddle between wineries in France, without feeling too much pain.

Do you see how in a proper bicyclist's decision tree the choices cascade from deciding what you want the bike to do, rather than shopping for a bike that someone else has though up and put together with components he bought as a job lot on price?

Forget the technicalities; you can bone up on them later, or have your new mates on the forum give you a quick primer. Instead think hard about what you want the bike to do for you, and how best to share that with us, and someone here will have had the same expectation, and be able to advise you on the best frame type and size, and components and their scaling, to meet your expectations exactly.

It works; it's not rocket science; it just takes patience. Buying this class of bike is not a process that can be hurried.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 05:54:17 PM by Andre Jute »

geocycle

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2014, 04:25:11 PM »
Lovely reply Andre, fully endorse everything you say there.
 

Neil Jones

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2014, 04:28:16 PM »
I think Andre has hit all the nails on the head with his comments, good luck on your journey.

Researching components and options is great fun and I think you will always be fine tuning your bike to some extent once you have it, I know I am.

I love the Rohloff hub, it is expensive but you generally get what you pay for in life, quality doesn't come cheap. That said Thorns derailleur models are superb too and considerably cheaper. if you can get down to SJS Cycles at some point and test ride a few options it will give you a clearer idea as to what suits you best.

Regards, Neil.

energyman

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2014, 06:56:01 PM »
All good advice but you must reconsider the wearing of Lycra.  Bright colours, that match of course and a helmet that glows in daylight let alone the dark.  Then you can consider yourself a real CYCLIST !  Like the bevvy of cyclists that just rode past my house.
 ;)

energyman

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2014, 06:59:25 PM »
All good advice but you must reconsider the wearing of Lycra.  Bright colours, that match of course and a helmet that glows in daylight let alone the dark.  Then you can consider yourself a real CYCLIST !  Like the bevvy of cyclists that just rode past my house.
 ;)

Oh and don't worry about going up hills.  I found that over time you eventually realise that can get up them hills without resorting to being a pedestrian.

rualexander

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2014, 07:22:05 PM »
Having a look at the pure gear ratio (i.e. the ratio between the front gear to the back gear) having a smaller ratio helps. For example on a normal road bike the ratio at the top end could be 50 (teeth) to 11 (teeth) or 50:11 or 4.55:1 which means for every 1 turn of the pedals the rear wheel will turn 4.55 times. At the bottom end of the gear range on my touring bike I have a ratio of 26:32 or 0.8125:1, so my back wheel is actually turning faster than I pedal.

On top of this you have to take into consideration the size of the wheel (and tyre!), which is where people come up with a measurement called gear inches - the number of inches that the bike will actually go for each full turn of the pedal. There's online calculators for this. I use the Sheldon Brown one here

The lowest sets of gearing you can find are from mountain bike setups - 22:36 for example - and where with current modern gears flat bars really help. You cant get modern 11 speed mountain gear trains to work with road gear shifters or mount on drop bars. Saying that the lowest you get from a current modern 10 speed road system is pretty low, and should see you over most hills even if you do pootle up at 3pmh!

Couple of errors in what you have said there.

With a 26 tooth chainring and a 32 tooth rear sprocket your wheels are turning slower than you pedal.

And the 'gear inches' measure is not the distance that you travel for each full turn of the pedals, that is 'gear development'.
Gear inches is the size of the diameter of an imaginary wheel that would give the same gearing  with a 1:1 chainring :sprocket ratio, or as it is more often described as the diameter of a direct drive penny farthing wheel that produces the same equivalent gear.

Andre Jute

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2014, 08:03:10 PM »
All good advice but you must reconsider the wearing of Lycra.  Bright colours, that match of course and a helmet that glows in daylight let alone the dark.  Then you can consider yourself a real CYCLIST !  Like the bevvy of cyclists that just rode past my house.
 ;)

And, to offset the cheerful colors of the lycra, your face must be like thunder with your determination not to greet anyone lest they burst out laughing.