Thoughts and ruminations on fair market values for used bikes

[Danneaux]

Hi All!

I love discussions of values as much as the next guy and don't wish to put a damper on same, but do keep in mind most sellers try to get as much as possible for their wares and most buyers would like to pay as little as possible. Reality usually hits some price-point between them.

In the end, the market decides on a fair price at the time of transaction. Scottish philosopher-economist Adam Smith's notion of an "invisible hand" really does describe the self-regulating nature of a free-market economy.

I frequently receive mail on the subject by seller and buyer alike, asking my opinion on what is a "fair" price for a used bike. I almost always advise the same approach I use myself: Take a look at SJS Cycles' asking price for used and shop demo bikes, and at eBay closing prices for the country/region where you live. A quick scan of closing prices will give a good average feel for the market. Prices do vary by season, by age and condition, and by equipment/component level. Too, bike models fall into and out of fashion to a degree, and there's the always-inestimable value of yearning. This is *especially* true if one has been looking fruitlessly or has passed something by with regrets or is a collector wishing to complete a set. A higher than usual price might still seem a bargain to such a buyer. Auction fever can play a role as well. How else could I ever explain once getting nearly USD$300 for a lightly used Brooks Flyer saddle I purchased for only $64?

Do keep in mind the InterWebs are dynamic and so are forums and the discussions in them. Recently, I've seen some problems arise on other fora I frequent (they're of the automotive persuasion, so I'll be quiet about them here) where sellers have complained about members saying their asking prices are too high and then accused them of trying to get a bargain at their expense by driving the market down with comments. I'm sure that will never be the case here but in the end, the market decides on a fair price. Watching it all play out can be an engrossing spectator sport even for those not buying.

I love a bargain, but I've occasionally and deliberately overpaid for something I really, really wanted and felt same the warm glow I usually only get from a good deal. It's all about value and perception. Sometimes, sellers will ask overmuch and buyers really will pay overmuch and still get a good deal -- from their perspective.

All the best,

Dan.

[jags]

Dan  the vain of my life trying to sell things my guitar i bought for 750 i was selling it for 600 pristine condition got plenty calls offering 200 /300  same with the van transit connect pristine condition little miles full service history never driven hard , guys offering me 1200 for it. then the sherpa i was offered silly money for that as well.
if i see something i want and i have the dosh i will give the seller the asking price i don't do the bargain thing cracks me up.mind you I'm talking of me selling stuff i keep my bikes or whatever in prime condition  spotless.now buying bikes that's has been abused is another story no matter the age of them.my Raleigh is still perfect very clean bike but its 28 years old so maybe not worth much to someone else but its worth a lot to me.

[Danneaux]

I'm largely the same, jags, though I do like my bargains. I just laid-in three NOS closeout examples of my favorite helmet for USD$23 each instead of buying one from current stock that doesn't fit as well and paying USD$130.

Yes, you really take care of your things -- I've seen them in photos, looking as-new. Your bikes, too.

From here across the Pond, I always look at even the highest of used Thorn prices with amazement. They all look like bargains until I figure in the exchange rate and overseas shipping and customs and the lack of Thorn's brand-new components, setup, and golden warranty.

Used bikes tend to be a real iffy purchase here, especially if one can't see them in person. No matter how good the paint and external condition are, the bearings are almost always shot, dry, worn-out and in need of a replacement. Surest bet is to buy a used frame, but then alignment and tracking can be hard to judge.

I keep my old bikes (mostly from 1970, 1972, 1977, 1980, 1984, 1989) out of sentimentality...and because I realize they'd never bring what they're worth to me. On balance, for the joy they still provide, it's better for me to keep 'em and ride 'em.

Best,

Dan.

[bikerta]

I sure wish you were still selling your Sherpa Jags as I would certainly have offered you a fair price for it. Immaculate bike with every accessory imaginable as well as enough camping gear to set you up for life. Didn't really know what I wanted when you first advertised the bike, but now having spent time researching and thinking lots, I am getting closer to knowing and I think that was exactly it.

Anybody else got a Sherpa for sale?

Looking at the new Sherpa brochures, there are no shorter top tubes than 54cm now unlike Jags 510s that only had a 52cm top tube. That means no way can I have drops on any of them as that is the same problem I have with the Dawes and that has a 54cm top tube. Mind you I am not sure I want them anyway, as I would prefer straight bars with bar ends to give additional hand positions. This means I would probably have to buy a short frame but put straight bars on it instead of the drops to get my ideal reach. There is a 510s advertised on EBay (1 of the ex hire fleet) but this of course has drop bars on it. As it is a very much shorter top tube, I may just about be ok with them, but I am pretty sure that I don't like drop bars. This then means I have to go to the additional expense of fitting new bars, levers etc and by that time the bike is almost up to the cost of buying a new one.

The other option is the smaller 485L Sherpa advertised in the for sale section. After looking carefully at all the measurements on the various brochures, the measurements of this one are very close to the 500s in the newer model which is the one that SJS said would be my size. This has 54cm top tube, but already has the flat bars but a slightly smaller bike than the 510s. Again there are a few things I would have to do to the bike and it starts to get closer to the new one. Oh what to do!!

[Templogin]

Then there was the shop sign that said "We buy old junk and sell valuable antiques".

[Danneaux]

Brilliant! 

Best,

Dan.

[jags]

yeah my sherpa was is a cracking bike but a bit overkill for my cycletouring needs.
i have everything built back up once again and this time round i'm not selling anything .
(famous last words)

[Donerol]

The other option is the smaller 485L Sherpa advertised in the for sale section. After looking carefully at all the measurements on the various brochures, the measurements of this one are very close to the 500s in the newer model which is the one that SJS said would be my size. This has 54cm top tube, but already has the flat bars but a slightly smaller bike than the 510s. Again there are a few things I would have to do to the bike and it starts to get closer to the new one. Oh what to do!!

What about this? A low-maintenance, bomb-proof tourer with the added convenience of S&S couplings for less than the new Sherpa....

[bikerta]

Great looking bike and love the idea of the S & S couplings. It would be really easy to get up to John o Groats on the train. And Rohloff too!  Would need a ladder to get onto that saddle though  

I have been frantically looking through the brochure for the sizings of this bike and the top tube is a mighty 57cm so I would practically have to lie down to reach the bars although I like the sellers idea of fitting riser bars and levers for the smaller rider. What a shame though.

[Donerol]

Are you sure? How tall are you?  A shorter stem and using riser or 'comfort bars' could bring the bars quite close.  I don't think the virtual top tube measurement gives the whole story. Or some North Road or moustache bars - I wonder if the Rohloff shifter would fit them and how the steering would work...

[JimK]

I see that today's 510L frame has a virtual top tube of 57cm... from that I would expect a 497L to be a bit shorter... but these geometries do evolve over the years. I didn't go hunting for old brochures!

[phopwood]

How tall are you, I am 5ft 4 in and my Sherpa 500s fits me well, my legs are slightly longer than average for my hight.  The key to bike fit in my opinion is to tube length if this is right you can adjust the rest to fit with different components.

Peter.

[bikerta]

I am 5'5, but I think I have shortish arms. I agree with phopwood, from my limited experience it seems that the top tube length for me is one of the most important measurements. I am pretty certain that my frame size would be the 500s from the new brochure and I am hoping to take a trip down to SJS to confirm this in the next couple of days.

 

[phopwood]

I am 5'5, but I think I have shortish arms. I agree with phopwood, from my limited experience it seems that the top tube length for me is one of the most important measurements. I am pretty certain that my frame size would be the 500s from the new brochure and I am hoping to take a trip down to SJS to confirm this in the next couple of days.

Yep you sounds like me, I could never get comfortable with Drops and longs top tubes, always felt I was too far away from the bars.

Where abouts do you live.

Peter

[bikerta]

I am in Gillingham, North Dorset. Just got back in from a 40 mile ride on the Dawes and not too bad as I made a conscious effort to make sure I kept moving position on the bars so I never became set in one position. I also tried to stand up some of the hills to relieve some of the pressure off the Brooks saddle!! All in all, one of the better rides, but I can honestly say that apart from the first 20 minutes or so it was not really that comfortable, more bearable.