Do Ortlieb hooks from FRONT rollers fit onto the REAR rollers (same generation)

[cycling4chapatis]

Hi Thornies!

Hope the new year is treating you well! We're trooping on our preparations, bought a bunch of woolen items (Icebreaker stuff, Ibex 3/4 El Fito bike shorts), ordered rain jackets (Marmot), solar panel/ charger (Solarwrap 250)...coughing up $$ everytime I go online it seems! Hopefully stemming the bleeding soon!

Anyway, here's a quick question:

As written about extensively in another thread, we're not taking our front Ortlieb's, just having bottle cages on the suspension fork (that's still 2x1.5kg of weight up front) and having rear Ortlieb Rollers plus the 31l Ortlieb bag on top (shamelessly copying Robin& Fiona Thorn's setup). As per yet another thread I like the idea of aquarium tubing + electrical tape to bridge the size difference between the Thorn racks and the Ortlieb hooks rather than going with the little Ortlieb plastic pieces that always go walkabout after X 1000k's.

Combining with yet more forum/ net knowledge I'm planning on adding two extra hooks onto the rear panniers (4 o each pannier) and having two of the lower 'fins' (hat tip to Dan!) on each pannier, as I found that on bumpy roads panniers always bump outwards eventually. to, well, stop that!

Now here my question (which I can't answer, as we've already shipped panniers ahead):  do the hooks/ fins from the front panniers fit onto the rear, i.e. are the same size? And which hex/torz key do you need to swap hooks/ fins over?

Many thanks,
C4C

[Danneaux]

Hi C4C, and Happy New Year to you!

do the hooks/ fins from the front panniers fit onto the rear, i.e. are the same size?

Yes, at least on my bags with the QL-2 mounting system; they are universal and fit front/rear equally well.

which hex/torz key do you need to swap hooks/ fins over?

For the fins, none. A hand-turned knob contains a socket for the bolt head, and a twist tightens the lot.

Please note: You will also need the [ - shaped stainless threaded inserts for the lower mounting tracks; these are what the knob-turned bolts thread into. I just used a slim butter knife to gently lift the plastic track enough between the screws to insert the brackets, a job that took only moments.

Please also note: It is really important to get the knobs tight. There are little bumps on the back side that engage matching depressions and prevent the knobs from loosening if they are properly tightened to begin with.

I found that on bumpy roads panniers always bump outwards eventually. to, well, stop that!

I'm a proponent of using cinch straps to secure the load *and* the bag to the rack so they act as a single unit. The cinch straps keep the bags from tipping out, secure the bags to the rack, and secure the load in the bags, greatly reducing or eliminating the second-order vibrations that result in fatigue. The whole touring load remains quiet, which I take as an added benefit. I made mine from some quick-release Fastex buckles and lengths of nylon webbing, adding a couple sliders to keep the ends from flapping.

Hope this helps. Exciting to find you *this close* to departure; all best wishes your way!

Dan.

[cycling4chapatis]

Dan - comprehensive as ever, thank you so much!!!

[mickeg]

3mm allen wrench.  I keep a spare allen wrench in a plastic bag in the zipped mesh pocket in one pannier to make sure it is handy.  The purpose of the plastic bag so so the wrench does not escape through the mesh.

A week after you adjust them, tighten them again.  And do that again a week or two later.  And a month or two later.  Etc.  You are compressing plastic which gives over time, so they will be tight and then will appear to loosen by themselves.

Assume the same schedule for the cleats in your new shoes, if you have cleats, the plastic soles will deform allowing the screws to loosen over time.

[Danneaux]

Hi C4!

Mickeg makes a very good point; if your Ortlieb Rollers are the Classic models made of truck-tarp material then they use the QL-1 mounting system and will require a 3mm allen key to adjust the lower mounting hooks (which I call "fins").

However, if your bags are the Ortlieb Roller Plus (Cordura nylon fabric) models, they use the later QL-2 system and the tool-free adjustment of all hooks. The QL-2 system also used an elliptical lower track with two levels. Dual fins work best on these, thanks to the greater number of mounting possibilities.

The fins within each system can be swapped between front and rear bags.

The QL-1 lower track/fin (labeled "QL 1 Lower Hook-Standard") is shown here: http://www.ortliebusa.com/prodInfo.asp?pid=104&cid=2
The fin (hook) alone is shown here: http://www.ortliebusa.com/prodInfo.asp?pid=330&cid=2

For comparison, the QL-2 fin (lower hook assembly) as I described above looks like this: http://www.ortliebusa.com/prodInfo.asp?pid=102&cid=2

There is also a QL-1 oversize fin (hook) available for use with a Tubus Tara rack should you ever wish to use your bags on that rack: http://www.ortliebusa.com/prodInfo.asp?pid=101&cid=2

Thanks, mickeg; nice job!  

C4C, you'll need to check which bags you have to be sure you order the correct lower hooks and to see if you need to carry the 3mm allen key.

All the best,

Dan.

[cycling4chapatis]

Hi there!

Dan - thanks for the message alert, not a worry!

We have the 'classic' ones, i.e. QL-1 back and front.

Just to clarify - so the hooks AND fins of the front panniers fit the rear ones? (not ordering any new parts, just planning to move the parts from the front, which we're not taking, to the back). Tools is no problem, just got a bit of a tight window if I had to order them.

Talking of ordering - anyone have experience moving Ortlieb handlebar bag mounts  (< 3years old) from one bike/ bar to another? Do I understand correctly that you need to buy a replacement cable set to fix the mount on the other bar?

Thanks for the help!
c4c

[Danneaux]

Hi C4C!

Looking at the Ortlieb parts listing page ( http://www.ortliebusa.com/ProdList.asp?scat=21 ), it appears the upper mounting hooks are the same either front or rear within the QL-1 system, so they should swap okay. The *rails*, however, are a different story. Front bags get a short rail and rear bags get a long rail.

Now, the lower hooks (which in Danneauxspeak I have dubbed "fins") and half-moon rails (which I have called "tracks") also appear to be identical front and rear within the QL-1 system. I don't see any separate listing for front or rear, so I it seems safe to assume the same set fits front or rear.

not ordering any new parts, just planning to move the parts from the front, which we're not taking, to the back

As near as I can see, you'll be okay. The bags I have use the QL-2 system, so I can't try a swap of the QL-1 hooks and such myself to confirm. If anyone has a set to try firsthand, please confirm for C4C; I don't want to throw a spanner in his departure preparations.

anyone have experience moving Ortlieb handlebar bag mounts  (< 3years old) from one bike/ bar to another?

Yes, firsthand. I moved/reused mine from my Miyata to Sherpa with no problem, partly 'cos I moved from a spacer block to none at all, freeing up a fresh length of cable for the second use. I think successfully reusing the cable depends partly on chance and partly on how tightly the pinch bolt was tightened and the health of the cable. If just the dipped vinyl covering is disturbed by the pinch bolt, you can put a drop if super glue on it and you're good to go. However, if the cable itself is compromised in any way...I'd change it. I reused the first time and replaced the second, when moving the bag to the Nomad. Best to go with new if there is any question.

FWIW, I carry a spare cable in my tools bag when touring. A failure seems remote, but what a mess if it does. If you have two HB bags (one each bike), then I think I'd take one spare total to have on hand as there's no ready substitute in the field. Same idea as the double hooks; you're prepared with little weight or room taken. Carrying the spare will of course appease the Failure Imps and you'll never have to use it!

One last suggestion: I have found positioning the HB bag horizontally as Ortlieb suggest means it will sag downward when carrying a fuller load (the plastic frame distorts a bit). I prefer to position my Ortlieb HB bag at the same angle as (parallel to) the head tube so it will truly ride horizontally when loaded. Avoids interference with a headlight that way, even when bouncing on a really rough road or track.

All the best,

Dan.

[mickeg]

On my non-Ortlieb handlebar bag, I used some left over brake cable or shifter cable when I did some modifications.  I do not know if Ortlieb mounts require a special cable or not.

[il padrone]

Talking of ordering - anyone have experience moving Ortlieb handlebar bag mounts  (< 3years old) from one bike/ bar to another? Do I understand correctly that you need to buy a replacement cable set to fix the mount on the other bar?

Buy the Rixen & Kaul handlebar bracket. It takes the Ortlieb handlebar bags and is much easier to set up and ensure the mount stays securely placed. The cable can be re-used, or you can even just use a section of brake cable to do the job.






Also you can mount the very sturdy R&K bicycle basket on it, a most excellent piece of kit   My wife loves hers.

[cycling4chapatis]

Hi all  & many thanks for the pointers!

Front & back hooks - settled. Will move the parts from the front rollers (staying at home) to the back. Will post if there's any trouble with that.

Handlebar bag mounting: had read around a bit and come past the Ortlieb good-but-once-only vs. the rest debate re the handlebar bag mounting system. Unfortunately the bike it's currently on is on another continent, which makes checking the cable wear a bit tricky. Had a look online. Ortlieb replacement cable is about $10, a new Rxen&Kaul about $20, shipping not considered. Considering we'll both have Ortliebs I'm tending to ordering a replacement cable, trying to re-use the old one and carrying whichever is left with us. Keeping imps at bay indeed.

Dan - angle of mounting, noted, sounds like a good idea indeed, will make for some interesting eye-balling with the suss fork sag :-) . Any special considerations with the thorn accessory bar? We're not carrying front lights, will use our Petzl headlamps if we really had to.

And, final question in the bags corner - I've re-read the "aquarium tubing" posts (hat tip il padrone): For Thorn racks, Ortlieb hooks without inserts - recommended tubing inner/outer diameter? And how much length do you need per rack side? 30cm? More? And then just cutting it the entire length hotdog bun style, push on, electrical tape until it stays? Do you cut extra clearances for where top/side bars of the rack connect to the one parallel to the top tube?

Ah, and one more: cinch cords to secure rear panniers plus Ortlieb rack bag- how many? One per bag, i.e. 3, and then around the waist of each bag/the corresponding rack part? Dan - you have photos?

Many thanks!
c4c

[il padrone]

Dan - angle of mounting, noted, sounds like a good idea indeed, will make for some interesting eye-balling with the suss fork sag :-) . Any special considerations with the thorn accessory bar? We're not carrying front lights, will use our Petzl headlamps if we really had to.

The handlebar bag should always be tipped up just a touch so that is actively weighted against the bracket IMHO, raher than sagging and pulling against the bracket latch. Especially relevant for rough road riding - you'd be amazed how much the bag bounces and no need to stress the latch more than needed.

And, final question in the bags corner - I've re-read the "aquarium tubing" posts (hat tip il padrone): For Thorn racks, Ortlieb hooks without inserts - recommended tubing inner/outer diameter? And how much length do you need per rack side? 30cm? More? And then just cutting it the entire length hotdog bun style, push on, electrical tape until it stays? Do you cut extra clearances for where top/side bars of the rack connect to the one parallel to the top tube?

The tubing I used was 10mm internal diameter, 13mm external. The length will depend on how many racks and how many segments you need. I have Tubus racks and used ten ~80mm segments for front and rear. I only used them for the places where my bag hooks sit. Get about 1 metre - it's fairly cheap to buy.

Slit the tubing segments and fasten with cable-ties.

[Danneaux]

Handlebar bag mounting...

Your strategy seems sound, c$c; should work well.

Dan - angle of mounting, noted, sounds like a good idea indeed, will make for some interesting eye-balling with the suss fork sag :-) . Any special considerations with the thorn accessory bar? We're not carrying front lights, will use our Petzl headlamps if we really had to.

As for angle, that's easy -- just mirror the angle of the head tube, forgetting about sus-fork preload. In the photo attached below, you'll see how my loaded handlebar bag rides level, though unladen it matched the head tube angle. Had I mounted it level when unladen, it would have sagged when loaded within Ortlieb's recommendations.

As for special considerations with the Thorn Accessory T-bar...I installed my Ortlieb bracket on the Sherpa's and the Nomad's T-bar as I would on a handlebar/stem setup without incident. However, SJS Cycles do note the cable should be wrapped several times 'round the junction of the T-bar and this is shown in a photo on the SJS Cycles website here: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-accessory-bar-t-shaped-105-mm-extension-0-deg-prod11040/

I used the 105mm T-bar on Sherpa's 560S frame, but chose to go with the shorter-reach 55mm T-bar on the Nomad, which as a 590M has a longer top tube requiring me to use a shorter-reach handlebar stem. Things came together fine in this particular instance and I was able to use the shorter T-bar to put the weight of the handlebar bag closer to the steering axis for better handling. Not always possible, but a tip offered in the spirit of helpfulness.

Ah, and one more: cinch cords to secure rear panniers plus Ortlieb rack bag- how many? One per bag, i.e. 3, and then around the waist of each bag/the corresponding rack part? Dan - you have photos?

Sure do; see the one attached below. I use a single cinch strap vertically 'round each bag *and rack* to secure the bags to the racks so they work as a single unit. My Packer-series rear bags already have lateral cinch straps, but those only secure the bag-stiffeners, whereas my additional cinch-straps secure the bags to the racks as well.

If I'm parking the bike where I am concerned about a bag-snatching, I slide the q/r buckles to the underside of the bags where they aren't so readily visible and also employ the Ortlieb anti-theft tethers, fastening them together through the wheels with a small luggage padlock front and rear.

I do have to remove each cinch-strap q/r buckle the first time to feed the webbing through the lower mount of the rear Thorn Expedition rack, but once done they stay on the bike without incident, and you can see them in the neatly snapped 'round the crossbars in the second photo.

On different panniers used on another bike (attached in the next post to keep within upload limits), I have sometimes used cinch straps laterally as well as vertically, but just one cinch strap run vertically 'round each pannier should be sufficient for most needs.

Best,

Dan.

[Danneaux]

c4c,

Here is a double cinch-strap arrangement, as used on another one of my bikes with different panniers. A single vertical one per bag as shown on my Nomad above should be sufficient for your needs with the Ortlieb Back Rollers.

BTW, Ortlieb also suggest use of cinch straps and sell a set on their site, but they aren't the q/r type I prefer for quick entry/exit to the bags contents.

Best,

Dan.

[il padrone]

Sorry, this is OT.

Where did you manage to get hold of three Blackburn Bomber cages, Danneaux ??

Very jealous 

[Danneaux]

Where did you manage to get hold of three Blackburn Bomber cages, Danneaux ??

You'll really be unhappy with me when I tell you I got more than that. 

I found a couple in a bike shop out on the Coast clearing out old stock, and a couple more on eBay, where they still show up periodically.

They're *the* best solution I've found so far for reliably carrying 1.5l bottles on really rough roads and tracks, and the many mounting holes allow a variety of placement options including under the BB. The Salsa Anything cages aren't bad, but require a bit more creativity.

Best,

Dan.