Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Luggage => Topic started by: cycling4chapatis on January 01, 2014, 11:07:59 am
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Hi Thornies!
Hope the new year is treating you well! We're trooping on our preparations, bought a bunch of woolen items (Icebreaker stuff, Ibex 3/4 El Fito bike shorts), ordered rain jackets (Marmot), solar panel/ charger (Solarwrap 250)...coughing up $$ everytime I go online it seems! Hopefully stemming the bleeding soon!
Anyway, here's a quick question:
As written about extensively in another thread, we're not taking our front Ortlieb's, just having bottle cages on the suspension fork (that's still 2x1.5kg of weight up front) and having rear Ortlieb Rollers plus the 31l Ortlieb bag on top (shamelessly copying Robin& Fiona Thorn's setup). As per yet another thread I like the idea of aquarium tubing + electrical tape to bridge the size difference between the Thorn racks and the Ortlieb hooks rather than going with the little Ortlieb plastic pieces that always go walkabout after X 1000k's.
Combining with yet more forum/ net knowledge I'm planning on adding two extra hooks onto the rear panniers (4 o each pannier) and having two of the lower 'fins' (hat tip to Dan!) on each pannier, as I found that on bumpy roads panniers always bump outwards eventually. to, well, stop that!
Now here my question (which I can't answer, as we've already shipped panniers ahead): do the hooks/ fins from the front panniers fit onto the rear, i.e. are the same size? And which hex/torz key do you need to swap hooks/ fins over?
Many thanks,
C4C
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Hi C4C, and Happy New Year to you!
do the hooks/ fins from the front panniers fit onto the rear, i.e. are the same size?
Yes, at least on my bags with the QL-2 mounting system; they are universal and fit front/rear equally well.which hex/torz key do you need to swap hooks/ fins over?
For the fins, none. A hand-turned knob contains a socket for the bolt head, and a twist tightens the lot.
Please note: You will also need the [ - shaped stainless threaded inserts for the lower mounting tracks; these are what the knob-turned bolts thread into. I just used a slim butter knife to gently lift the plastic track enough between the screws to insert the brackets, a job that took only moments.
Please also note: It is really important to get the knobs tight. There are little bumps on the back side that engage matching depressions and prevent the knobs from loosening if they are properly tightened to begin with.I found that on bumpy roads panniers always bump outwards eventually. to, well, stop that!
I'm a proponent of using cinch straps to secure the load *and* the bag to the rack so they act as a single unit. The cinch straps keep the bags from tipping out, secure the bags to the rack, and secure the load in the bags, greatly reducing or eliminating the second-order vibrations that result in fatigue. The whole touring load remains quiet, which I take as an added benefit. I made mine from some quick-release Fastex buckles and lengths of nylon webbing, adding a couple sliders to keep the ends from flapping.
Hope this helps. Exciting to find you *this close* to departure; all best wishes your way!
Dan.
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Dan - comprehensive as ever, thank you so much!!!
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3mm allen wrench. I keep a spare allen wrench in a plastic bag in the zipped mesh pocket in one pannier to make sure it is handy. The purpose of the plastic bag so so the wrench does not escape through the mesh.
A week after you adjust them, tighten them again. And do that again a week or two later. And a month or two later. Etc. You are compressing plastic which gives over time, so they will be tight and then will appear to loosen by themselves.
Assume the same schedule for the cleats in your new shoes, if you have cleats, the plastic soles will deform allowing the screws to loosen over time.
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Hi C4!
Mickeg makes a very good point; if your Ortlieb Rollers are the Classic models made of truck-tarp material then they use the QL-1 mounting system and will require a 3mm allen key to adjust the lower mounting hooks (which I call "fins").
However, if your bags are the Ortlieb Roller Plus (Cordura nylon fabric) models, they use the later QL-2 system and the tool-free adjustment of all hooks. The QL-2 system also used an elliptical lower track with two levels. Dual fins work best on these, thanks to the greater number of mounting possibilities.
The fins within each system can be swapped between front and rear bags.
The QL-1 lower track/fin (labeled "QL 1 Lower Hook-Standard") is shown here: http://www.ortliebusa.com/prodInfo.asp?pid=104&cid=2
The fin (hook) alone is shown here: http://www.ortliebusa.com/prodInfo.asp?pid=330&cid=2
For comparison, the QL-2 fin (lower hook assembly) as I described above looks like this: http://www.ortliebusa.com/prodInfo.asp?pid=102&cid=2
There is also a QL-1 oversize fin (hook) available for use with a Tubus Tara rack should you ever wish to use your bags on that rack: http://www.ortliebusa.com/prodInfo.asp?pid=101&cid=2
Thanks, mickeg; nice job! ;D
C4C, you'll need to check which bags you have to be sure you order the correct lower hooks and to see if you need to carry the 3mm allen key.
All the best,
Dan.
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Hi there!
Dan - thanks for the message alert, not a worry!
We have the 'classic' ones, i.e. QL-1 back and front.
Just to clarify - so the hooks AND fins of the front panniers fit the rear ones? (not ordering any new parts, just planning to move the parts from the front, which we're not taking, to the back). Tools is no problem, just got a bit of a tight window if I had to order them.
Talking of ordering - anyone have experience moving Ortlieb handlebar bag mounts (< 3years old) from one bike/ bar to another? Do I understand correctly that you need to buy a replacement cable set to fix the mount on the other bar?
Thanks for the help!
c4c
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Hi C4C!
Looking at the Ortlieb parts listing page ( http://www.ortliebusa.com/ProdList.asp?scat=21 ), it appears the upper mounting hooks are the same either front or rear within the QL-1 system, so they should swap okay. The *rails*, however, are a different story. Front bags get a short rail and rear bags get a long rail.
Now, the lower hooks (which in Danneauxspeak I have dubbed "fins") and half-moon rails (which I have called "tracks") also appear to be identical front and rear within the QL-1 system. I don't see any separate listing for front or rear, so I it seems safe to assume the same set fits front or rear.not ordering any new parts, just planning to move the parts from the front, which we're not taking, to the back
As near as I can see, you'll be okay. The bags I have use the QL-2 system, so I can't try a swap of the QL-1 hooks and such myself to confirm. If anyone has a set to try firsthand, please confirm for C4C; I don't want to throw a spanner in his departure preparations.anyone have experience moving Ortlieb handlebar bag mounts (< 3years old) from one bike/ bar to another?
Yes, firsthand. I moved/reused mine from my Miyata to Sherpa with no problem, partly 'cos I moved from a spacer block to none at all, freeing up a fresh length of cable for the second use. I think successfully reusing the cable depends partly on chance and partly on how tightly the pinch bolt was tightened and the health of the cable. If just the dipped vinyl covering is disturbed by the pinch bolt, you can put a drop if super glue on it and you're good to go. However, if the cable itself is compromised in any way...I'd change it. I reused the first time and replaced the second, when moving the bag to the Nomad. Best to go with new if there is any question.
FWIW, I carry a spare cable in my tools bag when touring. A failure seems remote, but what a mess if it does. If you have two HB bags (one each bike), then I think I'd take one spare total to have on hand as there's no ready substitute in the field. Same idea as the double hooks; you're prepared with little weight or room taken. Carrying the spare will of course appease the Failure Imps and you'll never have to use it!
One last suggestion: I have found positioning the HB bag horizontally as Ortlieb suggest means it will sag downward when carrying a fuller load (the plastic frame distorts a bit). I prefer to position my Ortlieb HB bag at the same angle as (parallel to) the head tube so it will truly ride horizontally when loaded. Avoids interference with a headlight that way, even when bouncing on a really rough road or track.
All the best,
Dan.
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On my non-Ortlieb handlebar bag, I used some left over brake cable or shifter cable when I did some modifications. I do not know if Ortlieb mounts require a special cable or not.
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Talking of ordering - anyone have experience moving Ortlieb handlebar bag mounts (< 3years old) from one bike/ bar to another? Do I understand correctly that you need to buy a replacement cable set to fix the mount on the other bar?
Buy the Rixen & Kaul handlebar bracket (http://www.wiggle.co.uk/rixen-kaul-klickfix-handlebar-bracket/). It takes the Ortlieb handlebar bags and is much easier to set up and ensure the mount stays securely placed. The cable can be re-used, or you can even just use a section of brake cable to do the job.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1137/5128742610_7688149348_o.jpg)
Also you can mount the very sturdy R&K bicycle basket on it, a most excellent piece of kit :D My wife loves hers.
(http://www.wigglestatic.com/images/rixen-rk398-zoom.jpg)
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Hi all & many thanks for the pointers!
Front & back hooks - settled. Will move the parts from the front rollers (staying at home) to the back. Will post if there's any trouble with that.
Handlebar bag mounting: had read around a bit and come past the Ortlieb good-but-once-only vs. the rest debate re the handlebar bag mounting system. Unfortunately the bike it's currently on is on another continent, which makes checking the cable wear a bit tricky. Had a look online. Ortlieb replacement cable is about $10, a new Rxen&Kaul about $20, shipping not considered. Considering we'll both have Ortliebs I'm tending to ordering a replacement cable, trying to re-use the old one and carrying whichever is left with us. Keeping imps at bay indeed.
Dan - angle of mounting, noted, sounds like a good idea indeed, will make for some interesting eye-balling with the suss fork sag :-) . Any special considerations with the thorn accessory bar? We're not carrying front lights, will use our Petzl headlamps if we really had to.
And, final question in the bags corner - I've re-read the "aquarium tubing" posts (hat tip il padrone): For Thorn racks, Ortlieb hooks without inserts - recommended tubing inner/outer diameter? And how much length do you need per rack side? 30cm? More? And then just cutting it the entire length hotdog bun style, push on, electrical tape until it stays? Do you cut extra clearances for where top/side bars of the rack connect to the one parallel to the top tube?
Ah, and one more: cinch cords to secure rear panniers plus Ortlieb rack bag- how many? One per bag, i.e. 3, and then around the waist of each bag/the corresponding rack part? Dan - you have photos?
Many thanks!
c4c
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Dan - angle of mounting, noted, sounds like a good idea indeed, will make for some interesting eye-balling with the suss fork sag :-) . Any special considerations with the thorn accessory bar? We're not carrying front lights, will use our Petzl headlamps if we really had to.
The handlebar bag should always be tipped up just a touch so that is actively weighted against the bracket IMHO, raher than sagging and pulling against the bracket latch. Especially relevant for rough road riding - you'd be amazed how much the bag bounces and no need to stress the latch more than needed.
And, final question in the bags corner - I've re-read the "aquarium tubing" posts (hat tip il padrone): For Thorn racks, Ortlieb hooks without inserts - recommended tubing inner/outer diameter? And how much length do you need per rack side? 30cm? More? And then just cutting it the entire length hotdog bun style, push on, electrical tape until it stays? Do you cut extra clearances for where top/side bars of the rack connect to the one parallel to the top tube?
The tubing I used was 10mm internal diameter, 13mm external. The length will depend on how many racks and how many segments you need. I have Tubus racks and used ten ~80mm segments for front and rear. I only used them for the places where my bag hooks sit. Get about 1 metre - it's fairly cheap to buy.
Slit the tubing segments and fasten with cable-ties.
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Handlebar bag mounting...
Your strategy seems sound, c$c; should work well.Dan - angle of mounting, noted, sounds like a good idea indeed, will make for some interesting eye-balling with the suss fork sag :-) . Any special considerations with the thorn accessory bar? We're not carrying front lights, will use our Petzl headlamps if we really had to.
As for angle, that's easy -- just mirror the angle of the head tube, forgetting about sus-fork preload. In the photo attached below, you'll see how my loaded handlebar bag rides level, though unladen it matched the head tube angle. Had I mounted it level when unladen, it would have sagged when loaded within Ortlieb's recommendations.
As for special considerations with the Thorn Accessory T-bar...I installed my Ortlieb bracket on the Sherpa's and the Nomad's T-bar as I would on a handlebar/stem setup without incident. However, SJS Cycles do note the cable should be wrapped several times 'round the junction of the T-bar and this is shown in a photo on the SJS Cycles website here: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-accessory-bar-t-shaped-105-mm-extension-0-deg-prod11040/
I used the 105mm T-bar on Sherpa's 560S frame, but chose to go with the shorter-reach 55mm T-bar on the Nomad, which as a 590M has a longer top tube requiring me to use a shorter-reach handlebar stem. Things came together fine in this particular instance and I was able to use the shorter T-bar to put the weight of the handlebar bag closer to the steering axis for better handling. Not always possible, but a tip offered in the spirit of helpfulness.Ah, and one more: cinch cords to secure rear panniers plus Ortlieb rack bag- how many? One per bag, i.e. 3, and then around the waist of each bag/the corresponding rack part? Dan - you have photos?
Sure do; see the one attached below. I use a single cinch strap vertically 'round each bag *and rack* to secure the bags to the racks so they work as a single unit. My Packer-series rear bags already have lateral cinch straps, but those only secure the bag-stiffeners, whereas my additional cinch-straps secure the bags to the racks as well.
If I'm parking the bike where I am concerned about a bag-snatching, I slide the q/r buckles to the underside of the bags where they aren't so readily visible and also employ the Ortlieb anti-theft tethers, fastening them together through the wheels with a small luggage padlock front and rear.
I do have to remove each cinch-strap q/r buckle the first time to feed the webbing through the lower mount of the rear Thorn Expedition rack, but once done they stay on the bike without incident, and you can see them in the neatly snapped 'round the crossbars in the second photo.
On different panniers used on another bike (attached in the next post to keep within upload limits), I have sometimes used cinch straps laterally as well as vertically, but just one cinch strap run vertically 'round each pannier should be sufficient for most needs.
Best,
Dan.
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c4c,
Here is a double cinch-strap arrangement, as used on another one of my bikes with different panniers. A single vertical one per bag as shown on my Nomad above should be sufficient for your needs with the Ortlieb Back Rollers.
BTW, Ortlieb also suggest use of cinch straps and sell a set on their site, but they aren't the q/r type I prefer for quick entry/exit to the bags contents.
Best,
Dan.
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Sorry, this is OT.
Where did you manage to get hold of three Blackburn Bomber cages, Danneaux ??
Very jealous ;)
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Where did you manage to get hold of three Blackburn Bomber cages, Danneaux ??
You'll really be unhappy with me when I tell you I got more than that. :D
I found a couple in a bike shop out on the Coast clearing out old stock, and a couple more on eBay, where they still show up periodically.
They're *the* best solution I've found so far for reliably carrying 1.5l bottles on really rough roads and tracks, and the many mounting holes allow a variety of placement options including under the BB. The Salsa Anything cages aren't bad, but require a bit more creativity.
Best,
Dan.
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Dan, Il Padrone - thank you so much, cinch cords & aquarium tubing, here I come!
And while the topic is one bottle cages: I'm looking for ones to put on the the front fork (suss fork, no panniers). Shamelessly trying to copy Robin's setup (which is profile design cages at the front plus - ha! - cinch cords for 1.5l bottles), but from squinting at the Thorn pdfs I can't quite make out how they are secured to the fork. I presume hose-ties. So it's either that or these ones http://freeparable.com/monkiicage that come with a clip that fits the fork's lowers. I like that it already comes with a strap, but not sure about the one-narrow-point attachment re bumpy rides. Recommendation for big cages? I take it the Blackburn ones aren't easily sourced, so Salsa Anything...?
Cheerio,
c4c
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Aw, you're welcome c4c; Just want your trip prep to be hassle-free so you can have a nice departure on your wonderful adventure ahead.
<nods> The Blackburn B-52 Bomber cages are really outstanding for holding 1.5l water bottles, but are no longer available except used or as NOS (New Old Stock). They are exceptionally sturdy and have that rack of holes on the back for flexible placement in mounting. They do have one drawback, however. At the time they were designed, the Evian 1.5l bottle was king, and most commercially-available water containers hewed to that same standard. Now, water comes in a variety of container shapes and sizes and bottles vary in neck height and diameter and in overall height and diameter, so not every contemporary bottle will work ideally or even fit in the Bomber cages. It has not yet become a critical problem, but I can see it becoming more problematic over time as bottle shapes continue to become more individualized in an attempt to associate brand and shape for consumer attraction.
The Salsa Anything Cage is a leading contender, and has the advantage of a built-in velcro or webbing strap. I'm not sure how well whose would hold a bottle on a rough road unless the cage is nearly upright, as on your forks. The Salsa PDF give a good idea how it mounts: http://salsacycles.com/files/tech/5230_SAL_Anything_Inst_1.pdf
Apart from periodic reports of mounting tab failures on other fora (do a Google search for "Salsa Anything Cage Fail" [no quotes]), I don't think it would represent an immediate danger even on a front fork (the cage would rotate 'round the remaining tab, rather than into the spokes); the real concern I have would be how to mount it. This is one cage that doesn't appear amenable to hose clamp mounting, as you'll see from that PDF above. If 't'were me and I wanted to mount one on a fork, I think I'd try to get a bolt-on clamp mount, perhaps the very one Tubus use to adapt their Tara front racks to rigid forks that lack lowrider bosses. Not inexpensive, and here: http://www.bikebagshop.com/tubus-mid-fork-eyelets-for-tara-and-ergo-p-1031.html An alternative -- if the diameter matched your fork legs -- might be these in 27.2mm or 30.9mm OD by QBP: http://www.bike24.com/p212416.html
The ideas here might help: http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/ or here: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/cyclocross/bottle-cages-frame-no-mounts-281521.html
TwoFish make a Kraton rubber-back version with velcro to hold a standard bottle cage in place, but I'd be a bit leery it could rotate into the front wheel
Our own NZPeterG rigged up some fork mounts on his Surly for his ill-fated Tour d'Afrique and I'm sure he'd be happy to offer tips.
I've done it in the past using Minoura handlebar bottle cage brackets turned sideways to grip a fork, using bolts longer than supplied to make up for the difference in diameter.
And, of course, there's Andy Blance. He's a very nice fellow, and I feel sure an email fired his way would result in a suggestion or two. If you do this, please let us know what he suggests, as it is bound to be helpful to others in future.
Hope this helps.
Best,
Dan.
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No front rack on your suspension forks? People do it, in various ways. Tubus even make a nice front rack that can be fitted quite easily if you have brake bosses and a lower eyelet, the Smarti.
(http://evobike.hu/sajatfiok/kepek/jhrsaupozatwmfjoipzjvjjgyndzoigapgrazqzi.jpeg)
There are also clamp-on brackets available (again Tubus products) to provide a rack-mount
(http://www.evanscycles.com/product_image/image/9fb/880/471/27677/product_page/tubus-lm-1-mounting-set-for-forks-without-eyelets.jpg?1311430316)
Then you can carry more in your panniers..... like a water bladder(s). You'll be able to carry more water in a bladder than you're ever going to mount on the frame/forks.
Like the MSR Dromedary 6L or 10L. Here's mine on the racktop (http://app.getsmileapp.com/images/c02972bb5ba3e92e83ca6e775e14f322111a4063cf5a0ef80beda0c5dcc9d0c9/jpg/2048x1536)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3568/3580618964_9e2e332df2.jpg)
I've never much liked gadgets clamped to the forkblades with dodgy hoseclamps, ever since a mate came a very nasty cropper on a steep downhill caused by his fancy new light (horn?) rotating on the fork into the spokes ::) :'(
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Hi again,
still stewing on the same considerations regarding carrying water and where/ how to carry it.
1. How much water to carry: obviously depends on where you are headed/ temperature, etc. That said, we've settled on being able to carry a day and a half worth of water supply. In three months of Africa we never needed more (where there's people, there's water. If you're paranoid, filter or chemically treat it, ideally boil it. Do any of you carry water filters with you? We have a MSR filter that we've never ever needed, which we're thinking of selling). Between us (80kg of me/ 50kg of my dear lady) we conservatively estimate about 12l/ day (drinking, cooking, brushing teeth, minimally cleaning pots/ yourself). Andy (not Robin - been getting the two muddled I realised, apologies!)& Fiona's figure in one of the Thorn pdf's is 11l/ day. Dan - I saw in some thread that you've got about that just for yourself plus 4l extra from memory = ca. 3 days? We figure that if we needed more than 1.5days of supplies extra 1.5l bottles are easy to come by, 4 extra/person = another day.
In short, to begin with we want capacity for 18l between us.
2. Back to where to place them. Currently we've got the three Profile Design cages as recommended by Thorn. Minus one for holding the fuel bottle, that's 5. Two will hold 1l slurp-as-you-ride bottles = 2l. Leaves three for 1.5l local plastic fizzy-stuff/water bottles = 4.5l. Still a long way to go till we're at 18l...Placing 2 bottle cages on each fork leg similar to Andy&Fiona's setup gives an additional 4x1.5l = 6l...which would barely get us over 1day of supply. Further squinting at the Thorn pdfs shows that they are also Profile Design cages with laces for extra holding-on safety, but not sure how they are connected the fork. And an additional complication is that they were/are using V-brakes and our disc brakes might get in the way a bit, at least to get them further south. The reason I was so keen on the rig was to get weight off the back to minimise the wear on the rear tyre and minimise risk of busting spokes. Reading around regarding centre of gravity, it seems the short summary is: when you're slow you want it low, when you ride faster it actually gets easier when it's higher. Another variable that we'll want to place more weight on my bike to even out speeds/ efforts a bit. Having stared at "Tom's bike trip" Tom's setup (no front panniers, admittedly an extra wheel, but then mostly solo = i.e. not halving tent/ stove/ tools etc) a bit more and being optimistic about the quality/ capacities of the Nomads, I feel the rear would be able to carry a fair bit extra.
In short, where to place another 10l+ of carrying capacity on bikes with no front panniers and no trailer?
3. Narrowing down the options: contenders are a MSR bladder, Monkii clips plus their "V" 'off-road' cages and possibly Profile design cages mounted in an 'Andy- approved' manner (i.e. no hose clamps. Dan - I agree with that 'nordicgroup''s sentiment of not using hose clamps. Had a hose-clamp mounted front rack fail on us in African back waters. If you are reading this and thinking of putting anything >1kg off a hose-clamp mount - don't do it, they rattle south and damage whatever they are wrapped around). So how to decide:
- capacity: 1 10l MSR Dromedary on the rear rack wins. (I like that a lot Il Padrone, very neat! - the photo you linked shows it aligned with riding direction, couldn't quite make out the other close-up one - is it mounted across in that one? )
- cost: one Monkii clip is 10GBP, one cages is another 13GBP. 90GBP for four of them is bit rough, especially given that the MSR is a third of that.
- simplicity: MSR wins.
- weight distribution: as far as handling goes I doubt there is little difference between carrying 3kg (2x1.5l) down on the fork vs. 3 extra kg on the rear rack . Don't you think? The Thorn pdf says that the 590L can carry about 30kg on the rear rack. I very much hope to be under 20kg luggage, so a 10l Dromedary would be ok. Obviously I'd pack to get the centre of gravity of the rear Ortlieb Rollers + rack pack as close to the bottom bracket as I can (see the Thorn pdf's - the rack bag tucked right under the saddle).
4. Options:
- not considering costs: I'd say 4 Monkii combos (2 on each of our forks) plus a 6l bladder on my rack.
- considering costs: only a 10l bladder on my rack, no cages on the forks
- left-field option: 'Andy-approved' (is one of this forum's Andy's THE Andy?) Profile design cages plus 6l bladder
- inbetween option: 10l bladder and only 2 cages monkii/profile design on my fork only
- total re-plan option: the 4 Monkii cage option is nearly half the cost of an extrawheel...
This can't be that hard, but it's tormenting my head and our bank card is still quivering in a corner from the preparations to this trip...
Advice - much appreciated!
Cheerio,
c4c
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Hi C4C!
Looking at your questions, I'll take them one at a time and tell you what I do. Others will surely do differently, but this is how I go about it for my self-supported, extended desert tours where potable water is often unavailable due to alkali contamination (which cannot be filtered), requiring me to pack my own for use in sometimes extreme heat (air temps of 125°F/52°C and ground temps of 140°F/60°C in extremely low humidity).1. How much water to carry
For the conditions above I carry as much as 26.5l maximum, which also means 26.5kg as well. I carry 6.6l on the bike; two 1l Zefal magnum water bottles in cages cable-tied onto my steerer where they do no affect the handling. The remainder is carried in three 1.5l bottles in Blackburn B-52 Bomber bottle cages, two inside the main frame triangle and one below, all attached to Thorn's frame bosses.
The remainder of my water is carried in two 10l MSR Dromedary water bags. This has not proven to be very satisfactory for my needs, as I have found my bags quickly developed a very foul odor (smells like scorched rubber) and taste (same, with a chemical aftertaste). I have been careful to always dry the bags and to not store water for extended periods in them, and no mildew is present (one bag took awhile to develop the smell and taste; the other did so overnight). Despite MSR-recommended treatments with hot water and baking soda, the solution is only temporary and returns almost immediately. Online reviews indicate this sometimes happens, and MSR assures customers it is not a health hazard. I understand it may be due to bromine in municipal water supplies, and I live 0.8km south of the water plant, but the new bag developed the problem using only bottled water, so I view my MSR Dromedaries with mixed feelings.2. Back to where to place them
If taking only one 10l bag, I place it atop my rear rack and lash it securely alongside my tent/footprint and the dry sack with my sleeping bag, pad, silk bag liner and air pillow. If I take both bags and no trailer, then I place the dromedaries in the bottom of each rear pannier. If I am taking the trailer, then the bags go in the panniers on the trailer. The bags are not wholly waterproof over time and on rough roads, water will express itself through the walls of the bag, raising humidity inside my waterproof Ortliebs. I fear it could precipitate mildew formation over time, so that is why prefer them atop the rear rack, outside the bags. If only one, I will often align it lengthwise on the rack to keep weight low and serve as a "base layer" beneath the tent and sleep system sack. I sometimes place the crosswise, depending on the load. It seems to work out ether way, but I make sure to bleed off all excess air in the Dromedary so the water doesn't slosh and affect handling. It also makes a more compact load, becoming only as large as the water it carries.
On all ordinary tours, the 6.5l on bottles mounted to the bike itself is plenty.In short, where to place another 10l+ of carrying capacity on bikes with no front panniers and no trailer?
Dunno; that's going to be 10kg (1l fluid water capacity=1kg of mass + the container), a lot in one place. When taking less than maximum capacity, I sometimes fill ech 10l MSR Dromeday partly full and place one in each rear pannier for better handling. The 10l models weigh only slightly more than the 6l or 4l models, and allow you to roll the excess, taking minimal room if not filled to capacity. Perhaps they could be carried in a frame bag or lashed to the frame, but then you would not have room for conventional bidon mounts. I should note a 10l bag is large enough capacity to fit with a shower adapter and will provide a nice shower; a dark-colored bag will heat quickly in the sun and makes a nice way to end a dusty day before turning in for bed. If mine is less than full, I try to top-off my bags at a stream, creek, or cattle trough just before making camp, being mindful to purify the lot 1l at a time with my Steri-Pen Classic UV water purifier. Even though it will soon be "shower water", I'll be drinking from the same bag later, so the contents have to be potable and safe.no hose clamps. Dan - I agree with that 'nordicgroup''s sentiment of not using hose clamps.
<nods> Agreed, c4c. Hose clamps can fail in a variety of ways, none pretty. I still pack a couple in my kit for emergency use, but they're only for that.n short, to begin with we want capacity for 18l between us...Back to where to place them.
Here's a suggestion to consider, though it might take some creative sourcing and mounting:
• Two 1l Zefal Magnum bottles in CatEye nylon cages on the steerer = 2l.
• Two Salsa Anything cages, one on each fork blade, holding 1.5l bottle each = 3l.
• Three Blackburn B-52 Bomber cages or two Anything cages on the three Thorn frame mounts, each carrying 1.5l = 4.5l
That adds up to 9.5l each bike. If you had to reduce that to two Anything cages for 1.5l bottles and 1 conventional cage with 1l Magnum bottle under the BB, that would reduce capacity to 9l. In either case, two bikes setup like that would meet your desired 18l capacity between you.
• A rolled-up 10l bag apiece (remember, the weight is little more than the smaller-capacity versions) would provide extra capacity when needed and allow lashing to the rear rack at whatever partial or full capacity. At maximum capacity, you could carry as much as 19l per bike, virtually doubling your capacity and that might be nice if you need to carry it for only short distances.
One concern I have about putting a lot of weight in bottles on the lower suspension stanchions is how it might affect the fork's damping action. That's a lot of mass in unsprung weight, drawing on my automotive background. Andre will surely have some thoughts here as well. As for mounting the Anything cages to the fork lowers, I'd be inclined to use the Tubus clamp-on lowrider mounts. Though it would be sort of expensive, it would be a lasting solution that I believe would remain secure, provided they were torqued to spec and secured with LocTite. I urge caution not to overtighten any clamp to a point where the fork lowers could be distorted.Reading around regarding centre of gravity, it seems the short summary is: when you're slow you want it low, when you ride faster it actually gets easier when it's higher.
Though it relates to frame design and is directed to how bottom-bracket height affects handling, an article written some years ago by Rivendell's Grant Petersen called "The Stilt-Step Factor" speaks to this to some degree. A few copies are still around on the 'Net. Thorn's relatively high-trail geometry does especially well carrying a lot of weight at the rear. Low-trail bikes tend to do better if the weight is carried on the front and neutral handlers don't care so much one way or the other.
As for weight placement, I try to get mine as low and as far toward the center of the bike (in every way, side-to-side and fore-aft) as possible to minimize the effect of mass on handling. Yet another option: I sometimes pack one MSR 10l Dromedary crosswise atop my Thorn Expedition rear rack forward mounting tangs, *ahead* of my rack-top load. This way, it is as far forward as possible, while still being as low as possbile outside the bags, about he same position as a true saddlebag, but lower and more stable. Depending on frame size, that space may be going to waste otherwise. Doesn't interfere with my legs on my 590M Nomad, and places the mass very close to my own so handling is little affected.
As for the fuel bottle (freeing up one more spot for a water bidon), I carry mine inside my bags. I have a Sigg .5l and a Brunton 1l and choose between them depending on how long I'll be gone away from resuppy. I use a SIGG gasketed cap on each bottle and have never had fumes escape or collect in my bags. I most often burn white gas (naphtha/Coleman fuel) in my multi-fuel stove, and occasionally automotive unleaded petrol in the areas where naphtha is unavailable. The stove will also burn kerosene, No. 2 heating oil, and JP-4 jet fuel. I have seen some clever solutions on long-wheelbase derailleur bikes where the fuel bottle is carried horizontally. Depending in size, I have also seen them carried under the saddle rails in a bottle cage using a tri-athlete's mount. Extra water can be carried there as well, and those under-saddle mounts are widely available in two-cage models as well. If you used Zefal 1l Magnum bottles, that's an extra 2l capacity of...something, be it fuel or water. Depending on angle, the bottle could clear a rack-top load. Here's just one example: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tacx-t6202-undersaddle-bracket-bottle-cage-prod18713/ Here's another using Andy Blance's preferred Profile bottle cages: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/profile-design-aqua-rear-mounted-double-bottle-cage-standard-prod20426/
Just some thoughts from someone who has to carry huge masses of water more often than he wants to. Hope this helps in some way. Others will be along shortly with equally valid ideas that work well for them.
Best,
Dan.
EDIT: Have you seen the Bike Buddy bottle carriers? Here: http://bikebuddy.co.uk/
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I can't seem to find the photo now but I can remember seeing a Thorn Nomad with an extra bottle cage mounted behind the seat tube. There is enough room for this depending on tyre size and mudguard usage. It's would be worth checking if it's possible with your set up as it keeps the weight low down and central.
I'm not sure what web site I saw it on but I'll try to find it, might have been on CGOAB.
I did find this site: http://www.deluiefietser.nl/home/thorn-nomad-mk2/
In the photo of the packed Nomad, there is a small frame bag behind the seat tube which is used to carry a 5 liter Ortlieb water bag.
Google tranlated version (to see expanded photos use original link): http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.deluiefietser.nl%2Fhome%2Fthorn-nomad-mk2%2F
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Hi there, again - many thanks for helping me nut this out!
I hadn't thought of the Ortlieb waterbags! The're just over half the price of the MSRs...getting two 10l ones, placing them in one of the rear locations mentioned and filling mine first/ emptying it last before weighing down my dear companion seems to be the simplest/ cheapest/ highest volume option (both full + other bottles would get us to >25l, which strikes me as plenty (anyone cycled central/ south america? bar the initial hot, but likely highly populated tropical/ subtropical part I doubt we'll see anything majorly above 30degrees C, if at all, so that volume would definitely cover 2 days off-tap).
Dan - I've admired your steerer two-bottle contraption in other threads. Indeed a rather nifty postion. My current difficulty is that our bikes are sitting paid&wrapped in SJS HQ, half a globe away, so I can't quite tell how the Magura fork, accessory bar, stem etc would allow for this. But thinking about it some more, I'm warming to it. You only used zip-ties? (could you link those photos you posted again, can't find them in that endless thread of your beast!) And fairly simple cages, eh? <$30 sans bottles?
Bikebuddy, Monkii cages - both look rather promising and forum seems to be thumbs up for both, but then how to attach them to the forks? Monkii clips 10GBP/ piece or the Tubus option/ $20-40 per fork...all getting a bit out proportion vs. the Ortlieb (or even MSR) sacks, don't you think? Monkii would be 90GBP (4clips/ 4 cages)/ 6l = ca. $25/l...vs. Ortlieb at $4/l carried. Greater 6x the price just to shift the weight a little and not even all of it...not convinced.
Bikebuddy - not sure whether that even fits the forks (38mm diameter), anyone got one in the mk1 version - i.e. not using existing frame cage fittings?
Without deus-ex-machina Andy Blance appearing and revealing how/ why he attached the profile design cages to their forks, I'm more and more off stuffing around sticking my water on that part of the bike.
Re chemical taste...seems to be common for both MSR and Ortlieb...the differing user experience might be due to heat exposure. If the bag is regularly sun-heated (even incidentally) on the rack/ in the panniers, the water will easily get >50degrees C...at which point you're essentially tea-bagging the lining and leaching out whatever is just about water soluable. Until the tea-bag is 'empty' it'll keep coming. Fair/ foul weather riders (Europe) might rarely get their bags to the cozy conditions your US deserts or the Kenyan/ Australian sun can achieve, hence the varying experiences. If that's the case - white linen around it? Or even shiny/tin foil?
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[wrt to Dan's steerer-mounted waterbottle cages]...could you link those photos you posted again...
Hi c4c!
Sure! Here ya go, with full mounting details: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=6073.msg37919#msg37919 A surprisingly inexpensive solution. I use Zéfal Magnum 1l bottles and have been very pleased with them and they fit standard cages. They don't leak at all provided one tightens the top securely. The trick is to hold the bottom and the lid and twist in opposite directions.
That black thing you see in the upper-left corner over the cable ties is my swing-away bottlecap lifter, vital to enjoyment of my preferred Jarritos Mexican soda pop drink. For details on the opener, see: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3821.msg16510#msg16510
You might want to take a look at Andre's interesting approach to adding water bottles; it might find some application to your needs [read down from here to end]: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4220.msg19399#msg19399
Best,
Dan.
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If I was going to try to mount one or two cages on a tall steerer tube, I would use a pair of these instead of the zip ties. Being an engineer, I prefer mechanical things to be a bit more sturdy than zip ties.
http://www.niagaracycle.com/categories/xlc-alloy-seatpost-clamp-with-rack-mount-28-6mm-black