Author Topic: Tyre dilemma  (Read 7267 times)

phopwood

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Tyre dilemma
« on: December 22, 2013, 10:26:51 AM »
Hi let's talk about wheel weight.  I recently converted my sherpa to a rohloff hub.  I built the wheel using an andra 30 rim, put on my continental travel contracts and have managed to knock a significant amount off of my average speed. It is OK on the flat but going uphill very hard work.  I ride a regular hilly 10 mile spin and over the last 12 months my average speed has been 12.1 mph as a comfortable ride.  Since my upgrade 11.2 mph, I did go for it on Friday and managed 11.6 but I put so much effort in to the ride increased my average heart rate by 11 BPM.  I know there are many factors to consider but I know this route. I am sure the issue is not the hub it seems OK to me. And on the flat it is just fine and dandy.

Jags has recommended changing my tyres for marathon supremes which are 200g lighter so this should improve rotational weight.

The question is should I have built my wheel using grizzly rims instead, these are about 200g lighter.

Which other tyres should I be looking at there are so many and which size.

I have been looking at these so far.

Marathon supreme
Marathon racers
Panaracer presila tour guard
Continental Grand Prix

All look great on paper but I need some real world examples.

I don't tour I just like solid dependable fit and forget, I do all my cycling on tarmac,  all year round UK weather.  I just want to get my bike out and go.

Also I know that my average speed is not that important in the great scheme of things I am still getting out and keeping fit. Just a little disappointed.

il padrone

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Re: Tyre dilemma
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2013, 10:44:41 AM »
Rotational weight only slows you on acceleration, it should not be slowing you too much on climbs. What bike is your gear on? A Thorn? Do you have the Thorn Rohloff ends, or are you running a chain tensioner? These will add some drag.

I am not so worried about average speeds and such, but I have certainly not noticed any significant decline in my speed since changing from a 26" MTB tourer to the Nomad with Rohloff and Andra 30 CSS rims. The wheels are heavier, the bike is heavier, but I find the ride is just lovely, and any decline in speed (minor) is more than made up for by the ease of shifting, ride, and control.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 10:47:11 AM by il padrone »

phopwood

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Re: Tyre dilemma
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2013, 11:17:02 AM »
My bike is a Sherpa with a chain tensioner.  I am sold on my rohloff just want to put the life back in the ride.

Peter.

Relayer

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Re: Tyre dilemma
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2013, 01:36:34 PM »
One factor, among others, is that the Rohloff will not freewheel as well as your derailleur setup which will slow you down marginally on descents on a hilly route - this is drag caused by the seals. You can test this by pushing your bike and your pedals will probably spin, or if you cycle with others you will find everybody passes you going down hills, as I do on my RST.

Any increases in overall weight will slow you on climbs, wheels, tyres, luggage etc

Hope this helps.

mickeg

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Re: Tyre dilemma
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2013, 02:14:00 PM »
Agree with Il Padrone, rotational weight only matters on acceleration.

Is your tire pressure up where it used to be before you converted to Rohloff?  (I am assuming same tires as you used before the Rohloff.)

My Nomad MkII is slower than my other bikes because of my fatter slower tires on it and because total bike weight slows me down on uphills.  I also have Andra 30 rims, but everything about the Nomad is heavy duty, meaning heavy on the uphills.

triaesthete

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Re: Tyre dilemma
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2013, 03:17:15 PM »

Take the computer off and enjoy the ride  :)         Best thing I ever did. So good to get back to analogue/seat of the pants cycling. Smiles not miles.

Marathon Supreme in 26x1.6 with CSS grizzly rims is the sweet spot for me. Low maintenance and very low adjustment, all weather, reliable, long lasting, sensible weight, almost no punctures, fit forget, get on and go kit.  ;D

Marathon racers are similar cost to supreme but: thinner tread= shorter life, tread picks up more stones and mud and the weight saving is minimal.

Conti GP 4 season is nice to ride, very light, puncture resistant, grippy  and light but has a huge trade off in tread life/expense. (I had these on my Audax 700x25 and have now put Marathon Supremes 700x32 on that as well for a plusher more cost effective ride. Don't know if they are slower but I am happier).

The Supremes are also surprisingly good for exploring on bridleways and the like (at sensible look at the scenery pace). Excellent for exploring further away from home.

I expect your Rohloff will run itself and it's seals in a little bit as well. Try putting a dot of oil on the visible outer lip of each seal as they will be running almost dry initially.

Happy rides
Ian

Andre Jute

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Re: Tyre dilemma
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2013, 05:56:44 PM »
I like your statistic method, Master Hopwood: good enough for meaningful analysis but not obsessively precise. My anecdote doesn't relate to a Rohloff, because I got my Rohloff at the changeover to a different kind of bike, tyres, wheel type, brakes, everything, so the comparison was always dicey in a statistical sense, too dependent on opinion.

But earlier I changed from a Gazelle Toulouse, fitted with a manually controlled Shimano Nexus hub gearbox, to a Trek Navigator Smover, a very similar sort of bike, with a Di2 fully automatic gearbox (basically the same Nexus with a stepper motor rather than a gear cable), electronically operated. The only important different thing was that the suspension was also electronically operated on the Trek. At first I was slowed down a bit by trying to operate the gearbox in the manual mode. But the minute I got the hang of just pedaling up to my predetermined heart rate and letting the electronics take care of everything else, I soon started building extra speed. My median results over hundreds of rides over the same circuit that I rode almost daily, was around the 7-10% mark faster than before, which isn't as important to me as nailing my heart rate somewhere around 78% of max and holding it there, which I did much more consistently and, crucially, faster on each ride, so that the beneficial exercise in fact lasted longer even if the ride was shortened by greater speed.

It took me a couple of months to settle down to that stage, and I emphasize, I wasn't making a huge change like you did, just going from a manual to an automatic gear change.

By the way, I find that my version of heavier wheels, which come with low pressure 60mm Big Apple Liteskins (790gr each!), leaves everyone on road bikes behind on the downhills. They have to ride round the potholes on their their narrow tyres. I just ride right through them, and the roughness of the road, which throws them everywhere so that they have to slow or lose control, I just steamroller flat, hardly noticing the road surface. So not all heavy wheels slow you on the downhills.

Before my medical problems, I was a bit faster on my Rohloff-equipped bike overall than on the theoretically lighter, faster bikes. (By then I didn't bother with keeping records: smiles before miles, as has been said in this thread already.) The reason is again my bad roads and the difference the huge 60mm low pressure tyres make: on the Marathon Plus and workalikes I had before on the (theoretically) faster bikes, I had to slow down for the road, which on my Rohloff-equipped big balloon bike I generally pay zero attention to, except when I run out of it because I'm going too fast, and am painfully reminded of it. (I keep meaning to write up "An Anatomy of Bicycle Incident" -- we old racers never, never, ever, use the word *cc*d*nt -- but running out of time.)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 10:49:51 PM by Andre Jute »

phopwood

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Re: Tyre dilemma
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2013, 07:25:29 PM »
I think you are all right I am over thinking this, I can live with taking a little longer. I cycle for fun and I always ride by my self so no one but my self to worry about. "Smile not miles" I like that.  But I will keep my computer as I like to keep a check on my heart rate.

I don't worry about bike weight I will need to get some new tyres soon. 


All the best.

Peter.


Swislon

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Re: Tyre dilemma
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2013, 08:45:10 PM »
Hi Peter,

I have done the same as Ian and taken off my computer.
What freedom!
I am not worried about speed or mileage at all any more so long as i can keep up with my cycling mates that is!!!

Steve

triaesthete

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Re: Tyre dilemma
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2013, 11:02:35 PM »

Peter you are now entering the Rohloff zone. Although your rides may take a few minutes longer your maintenance time per ride will drop. Same total bike time overall but more of it spent out in the fresh air  ;D

I only worry about weight that doesn't improve reliability or comfort.

Andre, in addition to your steamroller theory I'll wager that heavy wheels ('cos they're big) are way faster down any rough or wet hill, and most smooth ones to boot, because of the tracking and braking improvements that  come from the higher mechanical grip levels and inbuilt suspension/roadholding they provide.  Jumping back on to 700x25s leaves me feeling in need of ABS because the grip levels are so much lower. The worst example of this was a rigid carbon bike with Schwalbe Duranos on it.....gripped the road (not) like an MZ on Ost Deutsch factory tyres  :o

Steve, are we now enlightened or Luddites? Like  vintage Rolls Royces we can proceed at an adequate and gentlemanly pace, to quantify such would be vulgar.

pip pip
Ian

Andre Jute

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Re: Tyre dilemma
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2013, 01:43:30 AM »
Andre, in addition to your steamroller theory I'll wager that heavy wheels ('cos they're big) are way faster down any rough or wet hill, and most smooth ones to boot, because of the tracking and braking improvements that  come from the higher mechanical grip levels and inbuilt suspension/roadholding they provide.  Jumping back on to 700x25s leaves me feeling in need of ABS because the grip levels are so much lower. The worst example of this was a rigid carbon bike with Schwalbe Duranos on it.....gripped the road (not) like an MZ on Ost Deutsch factory tyres  :o

An awesome confidence comes with those big tyres, Ian. They're very competent indeed. They stick you to the road, wet, dry, it makes no differences, like the proverbial to the baby's blanket. They're predictable, at the speeds I hit on the downhills an amount of understeer which makes them feel slower than they are, like a Mercedes S Class driven hard on roads too small for it, but of course that also stops you doing anything silly, and you soon learn that once you make allowance for early turn-in, they hold the line come hell or high water. That's roadholding. When people asks me about their handling, i.e. error correction, I ask, "What handling? The question never arises with such predictable tyres." The one roadie who had the brass to stay with me to the bottom of one particularly rough, steep, twisting hill, not a notably imaginative fellow, had white lines at the corners of his mouth when we arrived at the bottom. It was just my daily ride, nothing special, but he was all over the place. Of course, climbing or on the main road, he'd be waiting for me at every crossroads. At slower speeds you soon forget the Big Apples are there, because they just do the job, and are comfortable and completely silent. It comes as a shock when they connect you back to the road, for instance over chip and seal sections, but you soon realize that, like magic, they only intrude on your attention when necessary. The one thing that surprises many cyclists, who know 2 bar is very low pressure, is how firm they are; they expect tyres that big and "soft" to wallow, and the Big Apples don't.

Braking power is a function of the friction between the road and the tyre. Generally speaking, cyclists in the Thorn class like the maximum amount of brake the bike will handle well, and set up the brakes with a hard handle, instant response, but my brakes are detuned, Magura HS11 rather than the HS33 that can be made to fit, and set up to have a soft, progressive action, because I'm a careless rider and don't like over-braked bikes that try to throw me off (my main complaint about the Shimano IM-75 roller brakes I had before: superb if you pay grim attention, but dangerous to your cheekbones if you don't). Those Big Apples brake so well, you can sacrifice quite a bit of instant reaction and braking power to comfort and distractions, like talking to the pedal pals, as I do, and never miss it. (Of course, if I were a commuter, riding daily in close and unpredictable traffic, I would take a different view on setting up my brakes.)

They're definitely the best bicycle tyres I've ever ridden on; the best analogy I can think of is moving from the bias-ply tyres common on big American cars when I was a boy to Michelin cross-ply tyres on the first Citroen DS I had: it was like a shock of cold water. Bless Chalo Colina for putting me wise to them.

lewis noble

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Re: Tyre dilemma
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2013, 12:25:57 PM »
An interesting thread, still new ideas on an oft-explored topic.

I am thoroughly enjoying my Ripio, with Grizzly rims and Dureme (26 x 2.00) tyres.

Versatile, stable, comfortable, and I am gradually getting fitter - I have discovered that the harder you are able to pedal it, the faster it goes!!  Superb on trails, and strong / stable enough to handle the appalling urban roads here in Sheffield at present.  Takes a bit to get going, but rolls freely once on the move - on good surfaces I run the Duremems at about 55 - 60 psi.

But in May, I am doing a sponsored London -= Paris ride - longer rides than I have done for several years.  A friend (off his bike because of serious illness) has lent me his Dawes Vision Tour - 700 x 37 wheels / tyres.  "That will be faster . . . " he says.

But I have not ridden drops for 45+ years, poor brakes, and I find the STI gears v uncomfortable - painful wrist joints.  So I have thought about turning the Dawes into a straight bar bike, v brakes, etc.  Should fit me OK.Tyres / tubes would need replacing - perished and been standing flat.

However, I now find that the Dawes is only marginally lighter that the Ripio, and I suspect that although it feels faster, much is perception of a livelier bike??  So I am thinking of sticking with the bike that serves me well, and perhaps putting lighter tyres (Pasela Tourguards?) on for the Paris ride and other similar trips.

And as I say above, the most important thing is for me to get fitter.

All suggestions welcome!! 

Lewis
 

Danneaux

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Re: Tyre dilemma
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2013, 10:44:35 PM »
Hi Lewis!

You've a wonderful ride ahead, and all sounds exciting.

Reading your post all the way through, I'd say comfort will be very important on this longer ride. If you have the freedom to switch the Dawes' drop handlebars to straight ones that work better for you, it sounds like a worthwhile exercise.

I'm not familiar with the Dawes Vision Tour, but I should point out that some 700C-wheeled bikes have forks too narrow to readily convert from cantilever to v-brakes (I own several where this is the case). Even if you're stuck with cantilevers, they can be made to work very nicely and MTB brake levers will make braking a bit less effort than braking from the hoods of drop-'bar levers.

Given everything, I think I'd push for keeping the familiar Ripio for this ride, perhaps taking care to fit lighter tubes and tires to make acceleration a bit more lively.

There's much to be said for comfort and familiarity, especially if this is pushing things a bit for you. You know your bike, it feels good, and really the only complaint seems to be that it takes a bit to get going. Lighter rolling stock will help there and in steady-state riding, there won't be much difference at all on fairly level ground.

I think a regular, advancing riding/training schedule between now and May will do more good than a change of bike and will make the ride itself a more fun and comfortable experience if your body is geared for those distances.

There's another thought to explore as well. Your friend mentioned he thought the Dawes might be "faster". Um...d'you want to be "faster", Lewis? Sometimes, the goal in training for a ride is to go farther, sometimes to go faster, and sometimes both. If the ride has some strict time cutoffs you fear you might miss, then time will be a factor and "faster" will come more into play. If there's no cutoff and the distances are simply longer and you can do them unhurriedly, then I think a familiar, more comfortable bike is preferable and you can gear your training to going "farther".

My two-cents' worth, hoping it will help.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 01:28:33 AM by Danneaux »

lewis noble

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Re: Tyre dilemma
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2013, 11:00:19 PM »
Yes, it does help, Dan, thanks, and tends to confirm the way I was going.  If you are tired, or pushing to keep up, a sure-footed bike that you are familiar with counts for a great deal. 

Gales, storms, branches blowing off trees and all sorts of things happening here today, so no riding for the next day or so!!

Merry Christmas everyone.

Lewis
 

Danneaux

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Re: Tyre dilemma
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2013, 01:24:45 AM »
Quote
Gales, storms, branches blowing off trees and all sorts of things happening here today, so no riding for the next day or so!!

Merry Christmas everyone.
Goodness, Lewis! Do take care and keep safe through the worst of it.

Merry Christmas to you as well!

Best,

Dan.