Factory lube/chaincase experiment (X8 chain, Chainglider, Surly SS & Rohloff)

[Matt2matt2002]

Got to thinkng more about a Hebie guard and then remembered how my chain runs on the slack side.

I recently tightened it up but it was just a job I found myself doing when I had a few minutes to spare. The bike was running fine with the slack.

How would this square with the Hebie on?

Matt

[Andre Jute]

Got to thinkng more about a Hebie guard and then remembered how my chain runs on the slack side.

I recently tightened it up but it was just a job I found myself doing when I had a few minutes to spare. The bike was running fine with the slack.

How would this square with the Hebie on?

No problem. I routinely run a slack chain — you should on a Rohloff — and I've never noticed any complaint from the Hebie.

[Andre Jute]

Ah, I see now that I answered your questions on 20 September 2013 at http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=6813.msg46901#msg46901 Never mind, I've written another reply and there are some additional links and information in this post.

Also, I note you say you fitted it to a 38/17 combo but the SJS page for the CG says 39/18-22.

Is there a guide from Hebie saying that 17 goes with 38?

I am thinking of going for the 38/18 combo.
But when I look on the SJS site, the rear rings are only 13 15 16 & 17 teeth!
What am I missing?

Matt, a Chainglider consists of two parts that may be mixed and matched to suit the bike and its gearbox, a front part consisting of the chainring cover with two integral arms to cover the chain, and a rear part to cover the sprocket. Within each of those two parts there are several different models available, and you must take care to order the right bits or to find a supplier who knows his oats.

At the front, you can get Chainglider front ends that fit 38, 42, and 44 tooth chainrings; these are three different Chainglider components; choose one; when you get a different tooth count on your chainring, buy another Chainglider front end.

At the back you can get different Chainglider sprocket covers that suit different hub gearboxes. There is only one that works with a Rohloff.

(I don't know where SJS got a Chainglider for a 39T chainring from -- perhaps you mistyped. But the 18-22 tooth sprockets you mention belong to the Shimano hub gearboxes and is covered by a Chainglider rear end that will not fit your Rohloff and is likely to damage it.)

What you need is the specific Chainglider rear end for the Rohloff. That one component takes the Rohloff sprockets that have 15, 16 or 17 teeth; nobody except the makers of little folding bikes wants to know the 13T sprocket and one gets the idea Herr Rohloff would rather not own up to paternity of it. Martin appears to be of the opinion that the higher tooth counts may lift the arms of the Chainglider higher on the chain, presumably making it run lighter and more silently. Makes sense to me. In any event, the higher tooth counts do not require the chain to bend so sharply and may improve chain life. (Obligatory on-topic remark!)

It would be smart for you to buy your Chainglider from Thorn or another dealer who knows what he is doing, and to specify it precisely as "for a 38T chainring and a Rohloff hub gearbox with 17T sprocket".

There is an additional complication. There is in addition to various Chainglider front ends for 38, 42 and 44T chainrings, two lengths of front end. If your bike is particularly large, in particular if it is a long wheelbase bike with the chainstays scaled in proportion, you may need the Chainglider front end with the longer set of arms. I haven't actually heard of anyone on the forum having to order the longer-legged front end for a Thorn, but I got them for my Kranich, which is over two metres long and scaled in proportion with custom-made tubes by Columbus. The long front end is available for 38, 42, 44T chainrings.

Note that there is no 36T front end at present and apparently no intention by Hebie to introduce one.

Here is a pictorial reference:

Rohloff Chainglider rear end, the only one that will work with a Rohloff:



38T Chainglider front end standard length for a chainstay up to 455mm:



The long Chainglider front is for a chain stay up to 525mm. The measurement is centre to centre of bottom bracket axle to rear hub axle.

Either front end can have a bit chopped off each arm -- your wife's breadknife or a metal saw is good -- to suit the particular length of your chain stays, but this isn't critical as the arms slide into sockets on the rear end.

Here's a page with a video demonstrating how easy it is to fit a Chainglider, and particularly how the pieces fit together.

http://www.hebie.de/en/protection/chainguard/chainglider/350/

Scroll down this page for all the available Chainglider parts, including some that will damage expensive bits on your bike, see above:

http://www.hebie.de/en/protection/filter-cg/

All the part numbers you need are on the page above.

Hope this helps.

EDITED 21 August to remove reference to the Chainglider front end for 48T chainrings, which does not fit the Rohloff rear end. Thanks to Macspud for spotting it!

[Matt2matt2002]

(I don't know where SJS got a Chainglider for a 39T chainring from -- perhaps you mistyped. But the 18-22 tooth sprockets you mention belong to the Shimano hub gearboxes and is covered by a Chainglider rear end that will not fit your Rohloff and is likely to damage it.)

Many many thanks.
All info a great help

I had been looking at a non Rohloff specific CG on the SJS site - sorry 

Since I plan to do the whole job myself - I will need a Crank Puller.
Does the Raven have square or Splined cranks?

Matt

[geocycle]

Many many thanks.
All info a great help

I had been looking at a non Rohloff specific CG on the SJS site - sorry 

Since I plan to do the whole job myself - I will need a Crank Puller.
Does the Raven have square or Splined cranks?

Matt

You don't need to remove the cranks to fit a new chainring or chainglider.  I suppose you might if you wanted to add a spacer to change the chain line.  I found on the raven tour it wasn't absolutely necessary.  The raven has a square taper bottom bracket.

[Matt2matt2002]

You don't need to remove the cranks to fit a new chainring or chainglider.  I suppose you might if you wanted to add a spacer to change the chain line.  I found on the raven tour it wasn't absolutely necessary.  The raven has a square taper bottom bracket.

Thanks. As well as both rings and new chain, I will renew the EBB. Its very scored and marked.

So, square it is. Thanks again.
Matt

[macspud]

At the front, you can get Chainglider front ends that fit 38, 42, 44 and 48 tooth chainrings

Andre, are you sure that the 48 tooth front end can be used with the Rohloff 0350R S15 rear? I had thought so but looking again at the Chainglider site, it appears that it only fits the 0350R D16 rear, which is for 16-18 tooth cogs and doesn't appear to be Rohloff specific?

See attached screen shots below.
   


   

[Andre Jute]

Andre, are you sure that the 48 tooth front end can be used with the Rohloff 0350R S15 rear? I had thought so but looking again at the Chainglider site, it appears that it only fits the 0350R D16 rear, which is for 16-18 tooth cogs and doesn't appear to be Rohloff specific?.

You're so right! Thanks, Macspud!

I wrote all that in my long post above from memory, and at the last moment spotted the relatively new 48T front end and just threw it in without checking (ouch!) which is why I spoke of "three" front ends but listed four. I've now changed that post to remove  reference to a Chainglider for 48T chainrings to avoid confusing innocents. Thanks again.

*****

FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF CONFUSION:

The Rohloff owner can choose among the following Chainglider components, and only these:

1x Rohloff-suitable Chainglider rear end which will take 15, 16 and 17T Rohloff sprockets, one size fits three sprockets. You can change Rohloff sprockets merrily inside the Chainglider Rohloff rear end, as long as you stick to 15, 16 and 17 teeth, without having to buy a new rear end.

3x Chainglider front ends to suit respectively chainrings of 38, 42 or 44 teeth. If you change your chainring, you need a new Chainglider front end.

It is strongly suggested that Rohloff riders don't conduct experiments outside these parameters. Hebie introduced the Rohloff rear end (and rear ends for each of several other hub gearboxes too) specifically because of the danger of a "universal" rear end scarring expensive hubs.

[Andre Jute]

 

My Chainglider at 3500km, still on the factory lube. There has been no extra lube of any kind. There has been no service or cleaning of any kind. The chain is KMC X8-93. Notice how clean everything is. It looks like this setup will make the target of 4605km set by the previous KMC chain.

[John Saxby]

Very impressive advert for the 'glider, Andre!  Did you find any wear from the chain ring on the inside of the 'glider sheath covering the rear part of the ring?

Incidentally, after adjusting the tension of my rear brake cable, I gave the cranks a spin with the bike on the stand, and listened carefully for any noise or friction from my newly-adjusted 'glider -- barely any noise at all, at most a whispery hiss, so I think the extra "slop" in the system (quelle horreur!) seems to be working as well as Oil of Rohloff in keeping things quiet & content.

[Andre Jute]

LATER NOTE: As we shall see below, my response here is based on the belief that John is referring to the rearmost part of the Chainglider, the hub-sprocket cover. He is not, so I will address what he's actually talking about in a separate post further down this thread. I'm however leaving my remarks on the thread, embarrassing as the misunderstanding may be, because they may be of value to cyclists wanting to know how one adjusts the sprcket cover on a Chainglider.

Did you find any wear from the chain ring on the inside of the 'glider sheath covering the rear part of the ring?

The rear part of the Chainglider is under a pannier basket which, like everything on my bike, is thief proof; that unfortunately also makes it a bit time-consuming to remove, and I had only moments between returning from a ride and being called for dinner. So I opened up only what you see in the photo, to see if the chain is okay.

I'll make a complete inspection when I give the bike its biennial clean, in which everything gets taken off, unbolted, etc.

However, I do not expect to find any wear whatsoever in any part of the Chainglider. First of all, there is no noise from the Chainglider, zero; a good test is to ride on the painted line on smooth tarmac on a quiet country road, which kills the sussuration of the tyres, and so lets you hear everything else working. (My bike is totally silent; you can hear the air being moved by the fat tyres and the spokes, and that's it, zero mechanical noise.) Secondly, if there was any wear, the evidence of it would be carried throughout the Chainglider as at least a little mess. As you can see, no mess inside, just a veeeeery little of the same dust that has gathered on the top of the Chainglider.

Incidentally, after adjusting the tension of my rear brake cable, I gave the cranks a spin with the bike on the stand, and listened carefully for any noise or friction from my newly-adjusted 'glider -- barely any noise at all, at most a whispery hiss, so I think the extra "slop" in the system (quelle horreur!) seems to be working as well as Oil of Rohloff in keeping things quiet & content.

Has anyone told you yet that the chain is supposed to be quite slack, ideally 10mm of depression between front and back? This is a Rohloff requirement, nothing to do with the Chainglider. If you look closely at my photo above, you'll see that chain is slack once off the chainring.

I was surprised when I read about wear in the Chainglider. The back of the Chainglider rear section is not supposed to touch the sprocket teeth. Fitting it is not that much of a precision job. The ribs on the lock of the rear to the front halves of the CG are well spaced to let you find a position where the sprocket cover has equal space of between 1/8—1/4in around the sprocket. My experience is that a proper fit is silent: one rib out from the right one is loose and will rattle, one rib in from the right one is noisy, though not necessarily very noisy. You want to hear very noisy for reference, make the top or bottom one lock ridge shorter than the other side.

*** I've removed the confusing reference to Oil of Rohloff from my post above; it referred to another setup. There is no Oil of Rohloff on the current chain, nothing but the factory lube.

I don't think Oil of Rohloff or any other lube will make your transmission run quieter inside a Chainglider. If it did, after 3500km I would see quite bit of the liquefied factory lube spread around inside my Chainglider, and the rest of the guys would see lots of whatever lube they use spread around the Chainglider; it would be a commonplace. It isn't. I think what matters in a Chainglider installation, next to getting precisely the correct match of chainring and Chainglider front end, together with precisely the correct rear Chainglider cover for you hub and sprocket, is fitting it right, wriggling the parts together until you have a silent installation, wet or dry matters not.

[JimK]

The rear part of the Chainglider

I think John is referring to the rear part of the chainring, the part where there isn't any chain. Certainly the chainglider is a bit skinnier there, since it isn't covering any chain there.

What kind of chainring are you using, John? If is a little too thick, that could be causing the wear. Got to be some difference somewhere!

[John Saxby]

Thanks, Jim and Andre.

1)  Wear within the 'glider:  The part on my 'glider that shows wear is the sheath covering the rear of the chain ring, as Jim says, i.e., that part of the 'ring not covered by the chain.  I noticed the wear last fall when I disassembled and cleaned the 'glider. The sheath appeared to have been rubbing on the ring on both its inner and outer parts. It wasn't a big deal, but it did appear that there was some friction, hence drag, in that area.

     No problems anywhere else, and as mentioned, increasing the slop play at the forward part of the 'glider seems to have reduced whatever drag there might have been.  

2)   Chain:  I use a KMC 8.93, same as Andre.  It seems very content, clean & still nicely lubed.  I did add a little lube during my 3-week trip in Scandinavia last year -- just couldn't get over the habits of a lifetime...

     My chain is fairly slack. Would have to go back and double-check it, but following the Thorn chart, I adjusted it so that at tight spot & at midpoint between EBB centre & rear hub centre, there's 35 mm difference between its narrowest measurement (upper and lower runs squeezed together, measurement within the two runs of the chain so's not to include the width of the chain plates) and widest measurement (upper and lower runs stretched apart).  Up-and-down displacement of the upper run at the tight spot is about 15-20 mm.

     So all seems in good order.  I just figured that my 'glider was a bit snug where it should be slack.  Who knows why? the open jaws of the sheath at the back of the ring seemed closer together than they should have been, so that they closed slightly on the ring as it was revolving.  Since my fix of gentle persuasion-plus-tape, they've backed off their grip.

      My experience in these matters is that the item in question rarely "just bolts on, sir", so rather than get myself bent out of shape about the 'glider's mysterious ways, I decided to bend the 'glider slightly out of its original shape.  Seems to work so far.  The challenge will be, when I have to remove it, reassembling it in its non-standard form  :-)   ('Course, maybe I could just reassemble it as designed, and it would perform exactly as advertised, shamefaced after its timeout...)

[geocycle]

Impressive pictures of your clean chain Andre.  My glider wasn't quite as successful on my raven tour as moisture had got in and there was some surface rust on the chain, but minimal wear. I'm still without a glider as it didn't fit onto my RST perfectly so will require some whittling at some point.  I also lost patience trying to centre my surly 'not very round' chain ring and reverted back to the good old thorn.  One day I'll put it back on as I do appreciate the benefits.

[Matt2matt2002]

Impressive pictures of your clean chain Andre.  My glider wasn't quite as successful on my raven tour as moisture had got in and there was some surface rust on the chain, but minimal wear. I'm still without a glider as it didn't fit onto my RST perfectly so will require some whittling at some point.  I also lost patience trying to centre my surly 'not very round' chain ring and reverted back to the good old thorn.  One day I'll put it back on as I do appreciate the benefits.

Same here. I think some moisture got in a surface rust appeared. Chain in mint condition otherwise.
Not sure if milage.
But ' glider fitted last autumn so dampness in shed and genera winter riding may have caused the rust.
Surely it cannot be airtight?

Very impressed with the ' glider. And cannot think of riding without it now.

Matt.