Factory lube/chaincase experiment (X8 chain, Chainglider, Surly SS & Rohloff)

[John Saxby]

Andre, thanks for this -- very thorough, clear & accessible as always.  Useful for me as I expect to make my frame/forks/wheel & components orders in the next few weeks.  The 26 x 1.6 @ 80 RPM is close enough for my reckoning.

You mention the KMC X-8 chain, used with your Rohloff hub.  KMC lists several X8s:  e.g., and X8-93 for an 8-spd cogset, and an X8-93, also for an 8-spd cogset but in silver.  Both are 3/32 width.  Were either of these the X8 you've used?  The more expensive X1 is shown as THE ITEM for a Rohloff, but if the X8 does the job, the price is half that of an X1.  Or does the X8 look like a false economy?

Cheers,

J.

[Andre Jute]

Right, spent a pleasant hour fitting new rolhoff sprocket, surly chainwheel, new chain and a Hebie chainglider. All went very well, even taking the old sprocket off.  The chainglider needed no cutting and seems to be fairly smooth and properly fitted. I haven't had time for a ride yet but I think it's fine, just seemed a bit too easy!

Next weekend i will tackle the cabling.

Stretching out a pleasant job to make it last, eh? Good for you!

[il padrone]

KMC lists several X8s:  e.g., and X8-93 for an 8-spd cogset, and an X8-93, also for an 8-spd cogset but in silver.  Both are 3/32 width.  Were either of these the X8 you've used?  The more expensive X1 is shown as THE ITEM for a Rohloff, but if the X8 does the job, the price is half that of an X1.  Or does the X8 look like a false economy?

I bought three chains to rotate on my Rohloff drivetrain, two and a half years ago. They were this one, the KMC X8-99. At that time I recall it was 11 Euro which I thought was great economy, and the X1 was more than twice as much. The X8-99 has full nickel plating which I prefer.

The chains have been rotated on and off. So far the bike has done 17,000kms. The current chain may last another 1-2000kms, then I will swap on the third and it should do for another 4-5000kms. So I reckon I'll get 24-25,000kms from three chains. I could push it further if I don't mind really trashing the sprocket and chainring - a new ring, sprocket and Chainglider will go on the bike after that.

[Andre Jute]

Andre, thanks for this -- very thorough, clear & accessible as always.  Useful for me as I expect to make my frame/forks/wheel & components orders in the next few weeks.  The 26 x 1.6 @ 80 RPM is close enough for my reckoning.

You mention the KMC X-8 chain, used with your Rohloff hub.  KMC lists several X8s:  e.g., and X8-93 for an 8-spd cogset, and an X8-93, also for an 8-spd cogset but in silver.  Both are 3/32 width.  Were either of these the X8 you've used?  The more expensive X1 is shown as THE ITEM for a Rohloff, but if the X8 does the job, the price is half that of an X1.  Or does the X8 look like a false economy?

Cheers,

J.

John, all those KMC X8 are the same chain as to construction; it is the many thoughtful details of the construction that makes the X-series so long lasting. All that differs is the amount of plating. X8-93 is half plated, gray and silver, half-nickel. X8-99 is fully nickel-plated, silver-silver. Which you actually need depends on which other components you specify and where you ride and park the bike.

Note also that the X8 is the top 8sp derailleur chain on which I happened by an accident in the supply line, An alternative is the Z8, which is cheaper, but is plenty good if it is good enough for Utopia, makers of my bike, Germans who test everything exhaustively before they fit it to their bikes.

Whether the extra flex in the X8 as compared to a singlespeed chain is a plus on a hub gear installation, I don't know, but I suspect it is. The X8 certainly increased my chain mileage by multiples (not percentage points, literally several times), so I am not inclined to experiment. Also, the X8 is such a popular chain that the deals that come around, which is when I stock up because I give this chain away to pedal pals, usually makes the X8 cheaper than the Z8 or not very much more. (Not true right now. Z82 is much cheaper at CRC than X8-93, cf http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/kmc-z82-7-8-speed-chain/rp-prod46601 with http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/s?q=kmc+x8 )

My current spare chains are X8-93 which are grey and silver, meaning half plated. It makes zero difference inside the Hebie Chainglider on a bike that is stored in a heated room, even with my ongoing zero-added lube, factory lube-only experiment, presently at over 2000km. The chain never gets wet, though I presume a certain amount of condensations finds its way to the innards. So there is no point in me buying the X8-99, though in the past I have because that was what CRC offered the deal on. The first chain when I removed it was shiny bright, zero rust.

If the chain will be exposed to the elements on your bike, get the fully-nickeled X8-99 version. If you're going to use the bike in the Canadian winter even with a Chainglider, it's probably overkill, but if the bike will be stored in unheated space, especially for extended periods, I'd definitely get the fully nickeled version.

About the X1 Rohloff specific chain. The KMC X8 has improved my bike's chain life to where at least I'm in the room with Stuart (posts signed Stutho, if you want to look them up), who was moderator here before Dan, who is famous for making chains last truly stupendous mileages; before I got one-tenth to one-fifth Stuart's mileage, and now with the KMC X8 I'm up to 45% with hopes of reaching the halfway mark, which, given my history with chains, will put me too in the lower levels of the stupendous class. It is another reason not to mess with success, especially as I don't see how the X1 can possibly increase my chain mileage over the X8 in proportion to its cost; if it did, I'd leave Stuart far, far behind, and I don't think anyone here believes that likely or even possible. We await reports from those here who have the X1, but meanwhile I'm very happy indeed with the X8.

[Andre Jute]

I reckon I'll get 24-25,000kms from three chains. I could push it further if I don't mind really trashing the sprocket and chainring - a new ring, sprocket and Chainglider will go on the bike after that.

That's pretty impressive. I'd be over the moon to get 8k+ from a chain.

[John Saxby]

Thanks, Andre and Pete, for this.  Reading your replies, I realize I'd made a typo, using X8-93 twice, when one was obviously an X8-99; and of course you weren't fooled!  Either of these chains seems suitable; and for sure, I won't be using them in an Ottawa winter--I close down 2-wheeled activity between early Dec and early March, as a rule, because of the snow & ice as much as the cold. My bikes live out those winter months safe, dry & warm in my basement.

Anticipating buying Thorn forks & frame in the next couple of weeks--have been lurching between a New Raven and a Nomad X, currently tilting towards the former for the versatility it offers. Then, between October & December will assemble components for wheels & hubs, BB, cranks, bars, headset & stem, etc., plus accessories like lights & mudguards, with a view to getting the lot built in January, in time for the Return of The Sun & the Great Thaw in March...  The forum threads have been very useful indeed, augmented by advice from individual riders, based on personal experience.

Fotos to follow in due course, with thanks to all for advice.

J.

[geocycle]

The chain glider got tested today on a ride on some mixed surfaces.  I am generally happy with it.  It was very easy to fit and I felt no drag.  It remained very secure even after some rough sections.  At times it was almost silent, at others it was a bit like a slightly loose mudguard.  I think I can put up with this slight noise, which aft all is less than the rolhoff in gear 7. The benefits for a bike used every day on gravelly old rail paths should be great.  Thanks to Andre for his recommendation.

Here are a few pics of the chain glider and a nice view from the saddle from today's ride.

[in4]

Very useful post. Thanks for that. Lovely photos too. Mawddach by any chance?

[Danneaux]

Wonderful report and lovely photos, Geo', very helpful to those of us contemplating doing the same.

Cue the "Danneaux Need.Want. Litany" for a 36T Hebie Chainglider. Woe-oh-oh, woe-oh-oh.

All the best,

Dan.

[geocycle]

Very useful post. Thanks for that. Lovely photos too. Mawddach by any chance?

No but there are similarities aren't there!  This is Arnside in south Cumbria.

[julk]

Looks good.
I used to live at Storth, about 2 miles away towards Milnthorpe.
That railway bridge looks a lot different at high tide!

Has the cycle way across the railway over to Grange progressed?
Julian.

[Andre Jute]

Super photographs. Those blue hills in the background call to me. Thank you for sharing.

[geocycle]

Looks good.
I used to live at Storth, about 2 miles away towards Milnthorpe.
That railway bridge looks a lot different at high tide!

Has the cycle way across the railway over to Grange progressed?
Julian.

Alas, the plans for cycleway seem to be shelved.  Its a real shame as it would be a great crossing and bring together Arnside and Grange.  Indeed I would have visited the Hazlemere(?) cafe to test their 'vanilla slice of the week' Instead I went to leighton Moss RSPB reserve who do a good coffee cake. 

[Andre Jute]

Many thanks. I recall that has far as having to cut the chain glider or not, one factor is the size of front and rear cog.

Whoa, Matt. The number of teeth on the chainring and the sprocket have nothing to do with whether the Chainglider has to be cut. All that matters about the number of teeth on the wheelies is that they don't break Rohloff's maximum torque spec (don't worry about it, no combo that the Chainglider can make breaks the Rohloff rule) and that they suit your riding style. There are tables at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGHebieChainglider.html to help you choose chainring and sprocket combinations to suit the gearing you prefer, and if you have a wildly different cadence or tire size, tell me and I'll twist Bill Gates' arm to make Excel come up with a table especially for you. Doubleclick on the tables to enlarge them.

The Chainglider comes in two parts. The one is a Rohloff-specific back end. There is only one fitting and it suits 15-16-17T Rohloff sprockets. The other fitting is the front end and there are six possibilities:
-- 3x choices of chainring size 38-42-44T each of which requires a different front end
-- 2x lengths of front end for each permitted tooth count, one for chainstays with an axle distance of 445-475mm, the other one 70mm longer for longer chain stays up to an axle distance of 530mm.

Here a German dealer with an English page lays it out as the rear end (you want the Rohlloff!) http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hebie-chainglider-for-rohloff-15-17t-for-38t-black-prod22354/ followed by the 6 front ends according to chainring and chainstay length at http://www.bike-components.de/products/info/p29665_Chainglider-350-Vollkettenschutz-Vorderteil-.html?xtcr=1&xtmcl=chainglider I can recommend this dealer; I bought my Chainglider from him; very cheap delivery charges.


So you specify the kit order as:

0350R S15 1x Rohloff rear end

0350F TT YY 1x Rohloff front end TT [tooth count] YY [length, standard or extra long]

My front end for instance is "0350F 38 XL Rohloff front end 38T Extra Long".

More information in English at http://www.hebie.de/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/2012/CG_flyer_10x10_2012_en.pdf and workshop instructions in German at http://www.hebie.de/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/Broschuere_Chainglider_08_web.pdf

***

Don't agonize about the cutting. It's the easiest task of the entire operation, except for the fitting, as Geo has observed. Any old hacksaw will do. Don't even agonize over measuring to cut. The front end of the Chainglider slips into the rear end of the Chainglider and clips in on a row of ridges, so there's not need for precision; you're not butting up parts for the Great Engineerng Exhibition; normal tidiness will suffice. I just eyeballed mine, measured along my thumb to roughly the first joint, and sawed with a carbon blade because it lay to hand (I saw everything with it that doesn't require a power tool). Worked a treat. A couple of quick swipes with a sanding block and Bernd's your uncle.

What you want to take more care with is getting the right length of Chainglider front end in the first instance. But I bet there is someone with the same model and size of Thorn as you have who already ordered a Chainglider and knows which one you need. If not, Dan probably knows where Mr Blance keeps the table of chainstay lengths that correspond to various bike sizes. Or, of course, as a last resort, you can do it the easy way with a measuring tape, measuring from centre of the bottom bracket axle to the centre of the Rohloff axle.

Or, even easier, buy it from SJS and let them be responsible for sending you the right size. They offer a 42T set http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hebie-chainglider-for-rohloff-15-17t-for-42t-black-prod19788/ and a 38T set http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hebie-chainglider-for-rohloff-15-17t-for-38t-black-prod22354/ and I presume they'll get you a 44T set if you insist.

Hope this helps.

[Danneaux]

Andre and All;

My corespondence with Hebie and the measurements from their tables indicate my 590M Nomad would require the "Long" front piece, same as Andre's Utopia Kranich. My Nomad has extraordinarily long chainstays.

Best,

Dan. (...who still wishes Hebie'd make the thing for a 36T chainring)