Author Topic: Stands  (Read 31448 times)

john p

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Stands
« on: July 17, 2005, 02:29:30 pm »
Hi all.
      I have a Thorn voyager used for my daughter and myself and we have panniers on the rear rack. I wish to safely stand the cycle upright whilst we are on stop. Should I purchase a sidestand or centrestand? Has anyone got any advice on the stability of either of these? Thanks in advance for any replies.
                       John[:)]
 

graham

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Re: Stands
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2005, 08:18:54 pm »
When I asked about a stand when ordering my Thorn tandem, I was steered away from the idea. On the grounds that the windage area presented, especially by a tandem may mean a gust could blow the bike over. So we have gone standless and either find a bit of grass to lay the bike down on or find something to lean it against, using a saddle or pannier or even crank as the point of contact. Which seems to work for us.

Suppose it depends what you mean by 'safely'. I would be inclined to agree with Thorn and think that no stand would hold a tandem upright in all circumstances, but if you are careful and possibly don't mind the odd fall..

We did meet another couple with a tandem who had a brilliant centre stand, alloy castings I suspect, which stowed like a side stand but unfolded as lowered to make a centre stand. I don't know I'd put one on our tandem but for my solo it looked very good. I carry a heavy work bag on the solo which I just strap to the top of the rack, and with a sidestand the bike tends to topple because of the lean. If anyone knows what rack I've described and where to get one, I'd be grateful.
 

graham

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Re: Stands
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2005, 08:22:14 pm »
quote:
If anyone knows what rack I've described and where to get one, I'd be grateful.


Should have used preview. Meant to type Stand, of course.
 

TonySmith

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Re: Stands
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2005, 12:40:40 pm »
Another tip for parking without a stand is to use a releasable cable tie or old toe strap to hold the front brake on, you can then just rest the handlebars against a wall, tree, lamp post etc. The bike can't roll and the bars can't turn so it's a very solid and lightweight solution.
 

George

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Re: Stands
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2005, 08:10:37 pm »
quote:
If anyone knows what rack I've described and where to get one, I'd be grateful.



That sounds like the ESGE 2-legged stand (available in the US from http://www.sheldonbrown.com/accessories.html#kickstands); I'm not sure what UK suppliers might have it. Also, Hebie makes a 2-legged stand http://www.cyclex.co.uk/index.php/product/propstands/
« Last Edit: August 18, 2005, 08:25:54 pm by George »
 

n/a

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Re: Stands
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2005, 03:06:17 pm »
A good way of proping a bike is to use the pedal low to the ground facing I think backwards so as not to freewheel. Or get BMX frame pads as this is far easier and stops the nasty scrapes causing tinworm-even a small section of pipe foam as this works well on the top straight/sloping bar against a post or solid object.

docsurf

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Re: Stands
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2012, 01:41:47 am »
Go to click-stand.com

Tom in Washington state has a great product out and one that is tandem specific.

Mike

AndrewC

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Re: Stands
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2012, 11:27:03 am »
I use a Click-Stand on my fully loaded Nomad tourer and it does a good job.  It doesn't like soft ground though.  Tom is an absolute gent to buy from as well.

il padrone

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Re: Stands
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2012, 12:56:30 am »
I use a centre-mount Pletscher kickstand. On the rear BB it is far enough back that the movement of the steering does not adversely effect it like would be the case on a single bike. We've used this happily on several fully loaded tours.

On the Thorn Nomad I busted the Pletscher Multi-zoom rear stand (with ~ 60kgs of food and water aboard). I had to resort to 'the stick!' (tm) - my bush version of the Clickstand. In use I did find one disadvantage of 'the stick'. It is easily susceptible to an inadvertent kick with the foot which trips the bike over. The Clickstand may suffer a similar hazard. I will be replacing the Multi-zoom with a new one, it's just so quick and easy to use.

Danneaux

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Re: Stands
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2012, 02:40:46 am »
Quote
On the Thorn Nomad I busted the Pletscher Multi-zoom rear stand...
Aw, no!

Pete, is there a story behind this? Maybe something instructive for others to do or avoid? Did it just fatigue somehow?

Hope your bike wasn't damaged in the falls from this or TheStickTM...sorry you had trouble with something so essential to everyday convenience while on-tour. I can't believe how much easier my solo touring life became once I got my Click-Stand; it is just so nice to have a mechanical "somebody" to hold the bike at every stop. It'd be the same for a kickstand, I'm sure.

Best,

Dan. ("Every Picture Tells a Story" is not just a Rod Stewart album...)

il padrone

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Re: Stands
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2012, 08:03:29 am »
Aw, no!

Pete, is there a story behind this? Maybe something instructive for others to do or avoid? Did it just fatigue somehow?

No story really, just 3 weeks of sustained use with loads of up to 65kgs - 25 kgs of camping gear, 23 kgs of water, plus 6-7 days of food (say 15 kgs). It gave up the ghost as I finally packed the bike leaving Kulgera, NT heading for the Old Andado Track.

("Every Picture Tells a Story" is not just a Rod Stewart album...)

Yes, I'd love to post photos but apparently the IPad (lacking Flash capability) will not upload photos to either Facebook, my web gallery nor to Flickr!

Grrrrrr  :(  Damned Crapple  >:(
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 08:05:57 am by il padrone »

Danneaux

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Re: Stands
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2012, 08:48:52 am »
Hi Pete!

<nods> Yes, I can see why the kickstand gave up; that it lasted as long as it did under those loads is mute testimony to its strength.

Quote
...apparently the IPad (lacking Flash capability) will not upload photos to either Facebook, my web gallery nor to Flickr!

I think we can fix that, Pete!

For Flickr...at least two ways...

1) You can upload photos from your iPad by email.

Go to: www.flickr.com/account/email/

. . . and locate your "upload by email" address and go from there. Keep it confidential so others can't hijack your Photostream (hint: create a separate email addy for photo uploads).

2) The iPad app store has a number of Flickr upload utilities available.

It is also possible to upload to Facebook and, I believe, your web gallery. Give a shout if you have trouble.

Best,

Dan. (who wants to see what Pete saw, y'see...)


swc7916

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Re: Stands
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2012, 04:46:52 pm »
We have an $8,000+ custom tandem there's no way am I going to lay it on the ground!  We have ESGE/Pletscher Double-legged kickstands on both of our tandems and they're wonderful - You just stand the bike up where ever you are (within reason, of course.)  On the stand, the bike is stable and it's very convenient to get into the bags.  It even serves as a workstand of sorts - You can check and adjust the shifting and brakes, service the chains, remove and replace the wheels easily, remove/replace/adjust saddles and seatposts... Virtually any service that requires that the bike be upright and stationary.  And it's always available, where ever you are!  Removing and replacing the wheels for flat repairs is much easier.  I wouldn't want to have to replace the Rohloff clickbox with the bike laying on its' side.   Only once, in a really strong wind, have we had a tandem blow over.  I know that some people like the Click Stand, but they look to me like a PITA.  The only reason I can figure is that they just have something against kickstands and don't want to "defile" their bike by mounting one on it.  I have seen tandems that were held up by a Click Stand fall over and the wind wasn't even blowing.  

You can see the kickstand in this photo:

« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 04:53:13 pm by swc7916 »

Danneaux

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Re: Stands
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2012, 11:24:39 pm »
Quote
I know that some people like the Click Stand, but they look to me like a PITA.  The only reason I can figure is that they just have something against kickstands and don't want to "defile" their bike by mounting one on it.

Well, it is a bit like the Great Helmet Debate; some like 'em, others despise 'em, and it is a matter of individual choice.

We've heard how much you like your kickstand(s), and I think that's great, Steve. You have a wonderful purpose-built bracket attached securely to a boss on your tandem's stays. It is working well for you and for many others including other Forum members who regularly use them in extreme conditions and with enormous loads in the back-of-beyond (Il Padrone). I've used them in the past myself and recognize their many benefits and ready convenience for all the reasons you've stated. However, like others, I no longer choose to use a kickstand.

There are some good and practical reasons why people avoid kickstands, and they don't have a great deal to do with appearance, snobbery, or "defiling" their (sometimes very expensive) bicycles. Here are a few:

1) Many manufacturers (Thorn among them) will no longer honor their frame warranties if a kickstand is affixed to the bike and a failure occurs as a result. Sometimes, a manufacturer will disavow their frame warranty even if the failure is unrelated to the kickstand or in a different location. Thorn is very good and reasonable in this regard, but other manufacturers will void the warranty if, say, a head tube cracks and a kickstand is attached at the bottom bracket or rear triangle, the argument being the broken head tube might have been caused by a fall from a propped kickstand. I know of three instances among acquaintances where such denials have occurred. It is yet another way for a manufacturer to limit warranty claims, which are always costly to resolve. There are two ways to limit warranty claims -- either design and build a bike so well that failure rates are miniscule, or write enough disclaimers in the warranty so it is rarely honored. Most manufacturers do both, and for very good reasons. Not only are such warranty claims expensive, but some nefarious customers will deliberately damage a bike so it can be replaced or upgraded under warranty. It is called the "JRA" tactic -- as in, "I was Just Riding Around when..." and is fraud akin to faked slip-fall injury claims against grocery stores. What the JRA claimant may not say is "I was just riding around when I decided to try jumping my road bike off a three-meter high loading dock. The head tube broke on impact and that must somehow be your fault as a manufacturer for not designing the bike properly. After all, my buddy's trials bike took the same jump and did fine". This is why warranties are increasingly restrictive and why manufacturers often require positive and objective proof of a failure; it is entirely reasonable as a way to protect themselves from false or contrived claims.

2) Bottom bracket-mounted kickstands can and do cause damage if the bike is parked in a low gear and then wheeled backwards with the kickstand down if the left crankarm fouls the stand. The cranks then exert enormous leverage against the lowered kickstand, and the chainstays where it is clamped are damaged/crushed as a result. I had a bike damaged this way when parked at uni one day. My kickstand was down with the left crankarm against it and the bike was chained. There was just a bit of slack in the chain, parking was tight, and apparently someone thought if they moved my bike rearward -- and apparently forcibly -- there would be room for theirs. Unfortunately, I was left with a damaged bike, the stays crushed about 5mm in total by the force of the left crankarm hitting the kickstand while the bike was parked in low gear and mechanical advantage was greatest.

3) If a bicycle is not designed for a kickstand (most aren't and lack any sort of boss or plate to fit one, which means the stand has to be clamped to the stays), then it can be problematic to affix one securely enough without tightening the mounting clamp and bolt too much. When most riders find a kickstand is loose (particularly when mounted with clamps on the forward end of the chainstays behind the bottom bracket), they simply tighten it. And when it gets loose, they tighten it more, and when the cycle occurs again, they really reef down on it. What has happened, generally, is the kickstand's fastener has not loosened primarily, but secondarily to the stand being overloaded and partially deforming the stays. Each time the stand is tightened, it makes matters worse.  Some people pad the stays with rubber or handlebar tape, but this same process can still occur unless care is used to discover why the stand has loosened.

4) I've seen people sit on their bikes with the stands down. I was kinda horrified the first time I saw it. This is Not Good, but is done in innocence and ignorance, and seems to correlate with cell-phone conversations. I saw this occur earlier today. The stand was loose enough to partially foul the left crank arm on departure. It will probably get tightened pretty soon, and then....

5) Kickstands are mounted low. Fully loaded touring bikes carry a lot of weight up pretty high (panniers and rack-top loads, full water bottles). A lot of leverage is placed on a kickstand, which is at a geometric disadvantage, being located so low on the bike. If the kickstand is clamped to the stays, this leverage is transferred through the clamp. If the kickstand is attached to a plate that has been brazed across the stays or to a boss in that same location, there may be sufficient leverage to torque the brazed bracket off the frame. I have re-brazed no fewer than three stands back in place for people whose brackets were torqued off the frame. The fourth example could not be repaired because a small chunk of steel was torn from the stay when the bracket came off and the stay was distorted. This on a frame that was probably too light to take a stand to start with (Tange Prestige). The builder wanted a happy customer, so he installed the kickstand mounting plate and...the customer wasn't happy when problems occured After and the builder wouldn't fix it and I couldn't, so the customer was really unhappy.

6) Kickstands mounted to the left-rear triangle are less problematic 'cos they're far away from fouling by the left crankarm. They are also mounted a bit higher. Both those things help tremendously. Also, in the case of one-legged 'stands, they seem to be considerably more stable at the rear triangle than similar stands mounted to the stays near the bottom bracket. Double-legged stands like yours are far more convenient and stable when mounted to the chainstays, but they are (more) expensive and can still run afoul of the left crankarm if the rider is clueless or unaware or ignorant or has a lapse of attention and then there's problems.

The best and least problematic kickstand I've ever seen was on a tandem. As I recall, it was a pearlescent white tandem Angel Rodgriguez built for himself and his wife many years ago and was featured in Bicycling magazine in the early 1980s. The mount was located in the tandem keel tube and consisted of a lower plate (for location and to prevent rotation) and a tube that was brazed vertically through the keel tube (to pevent crushing from pressure exerted by the mounting bolt passing through it). Brilliant! (and typical of Angel's high build standards and practical innovation. He was also the first person I knew of who managed to successfully paint ESGE/SKS Chromopastic mudguards; his didn't peel or chip, unlike others').

7) Unless a bicycle is custom-built to accommodate a kickstand (and sometimes even then), the clamps can cause some paint loss, leading to localized rust if the bike is ridden on salted roads. Your mounting bracket is very nicely done -- appears to be investment cast or machined from billet -- but it is not common to see such things on production bikes, which most people own.

The Click-Stand is popular with its users (and endorsed by Thorn) because it is light, can be compacted/folded for storage, does not clamp or attach to the bike in any way (avoiding any possibility of crushing the tubes), and has a high bracing angle which is generally a geometric advantage for securely holding a loaded touring bike. The achilles heel of the Click-Stand is loose soil/soft ground. In those instances, the Click-Stand can sink and bend, break, or dump the bike. In such circumstances, it *must* be parked on a jar lid or something else to widen the contact point and disperse ground pressure. The optional Fat Foot helps a bit, but it often needs something more in wet soil. I've had one fail in that manner (cheerfully replaced by Tom Nostrant, the builder), and since then I pack a tennis ball with a hole in it for such conditions. The ball is self-centering on the Click-Stand and greatly increased the surface area where it contacts the ground, and the fuzzy surface helps a bit also. If the ground is too soupy for even that, I will block up the brakes and lean the bike against something solid, like a tree. The Click-Stand also requires the brakes be blocked else it is unstable, so an elastic failure can prevent it from working properly. About the only other failure that can occur is caused by high winds, but even that can be largely addressed through use of a greater lean angle.

As for laying a bicycle on the ground, I happily did so for 30-odd years until I purchased a Click-Stand. Why? Well, there's nowt so reliable as gravity and the ground has never fallen out from under my bike. Sticking the bike to the ground with gravity as the glue is a great way to hide the bike when stealth camping; it just isn't as visible to passersby who might otherwise stumble across my camp. Unless the loaded bike is lowered or raised with care, it can put a lot of lateral force into the wheels, and cows on open rangeland could step on it, but laying the bike down on the ground or leaning it at a strong angle against a fence or wall served me well for decades and I have no damage to show for it. I do prefer my Click-Stand to the ground, as it makes solo loading and unloading much faster and more convenient, and if the bike is parked upright, the bearings are exposed to less water when it rains,and my panniers stay much cleaner and last longer -- many of the same advantages you enjoy with your kickstand.

So, to sum up...it is a preference thing. One pays their money and takes their chances according to their preferences. No one approach is "better" except as it meets ones' own needs. Obviously, you're a happy kickstand user, but there are others who prefer somethig else, and the reasons do have merit -- for them.

Best,

Dan. ("Vive la différence")
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 02:13:03 am by Danneaux »

il padrone

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Re: Stands
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2012, 09:21:36 am »
The Hebie Bipod Classic is an even better stand than the ESGE double-legged stand, in my opinion. To put it down you just push it down and pull the bike back, while to get it up you just roll the bike forwards. It works well even when the bike is heavily loaded, and it has a wider footprint to reduce the chances of the bike tipping.




My friend has been using the ESGE and it requires a lift of the bike to properly flick the stand up - something that becomes tricky with a heavily loaded tourer.

The Hebie Bipod is not a lightweight stand however.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 09:23:45 am by il padrone »