Author Topic: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease  (Read 23716 times)

Andre Jute

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4132
Hi folks.
If I fit a Chainglider to the Thorn with S&S couplings I hope to buy, will it hinder the un-coupling?

Depends where and how the bike folds. If the S&S couplings are arranged so that you have to take off the chain to pack the bike, you will certainly have to take off a Chainglider too.

Pulling off a Chainglider rear end to inspect the cog or drop a wheel, despite what you might read here from people looking for a reason not to buy one, is no big deal, nor is popping open a cover length to inspect the chain, nor is opening the chainring cover to inspect the chainring. But taking a Chainglider off altogether is not advised until you've learned the tricky contortion to get it back on with all parts on the right side of the chain and chainring; this is because the matching, plug-together parts change direction at the front centre of the chainring, under the add-on brace there.

On the whole, if I had an S&S bike that split or folded in a line across the chain, I'd not fit a Hebie Chainglider. What's the point if you will get your hands dirty anyway?

Andre Jute

martinf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1167
But taking a Chainglider off altogether is not advised until you've learned the tricky contortion to get it back on with all parts on the right side of the chain and chainring; this is because the matching, plug-together parts change direction at the front centre of the chainring, under the add-on brace there.

I didn't find taking the Chainglider off and putting it back on again difficult, the parts are marked where necessary to help correct assembly. Mine doesn't have the add-on brace at the front centre of the chainring, so maybe the recent models are slightly different. Just as well, as there is very little clearance between Chainglider and the old TA Cyclotouriste crank on my 5-speed bike. This won't be an issue on my future Thorn.

If doing this in the field (to inspect for dust ?) without adjusting chain tension, count the "bars" showing before disassembly and reassemble the same to avoid having to adjust the Chainglider.


Andre Jute

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4132
Martin, the brace I refer to is the small clip that holds the extreme forward end of the Chainglider together. -- AJ

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8285
  • reisen statt rasen
Hi Andre!

Though you did a wonderful job cleaning the Finish Line grease from the mating surfaces and engagement well of your click-box before applying Phil grease, I fear some of the FinishLine may have made its way into the interior.

I've had great success with Phil Wood grease for well over 30 years, but I've always used it alone, after removing all traces of any preceding lube (easy to do when the component is a hub, pedals, BB, or headset). I'm concerned about how well the Phil grease might lubricate or protect if it mixes with any remaining traces of Finish Line that remains in the click-box housing. Sometimes greases mix just fine and may well in this case; after all, the Finish Line has a high Teflon content and Teflon/PTFE is pretty much inert (it is the carrier that can sometimes cause problems; the Finish Line uses a synthetic base while Phil is petroleum-based). Occasionally, when different types of grease mix, the sum is less than the parts -- the mix can become runny and migrate, or it can become gummy and fail to protect. I have seen some Very Bad Things happen when automotive greases are mixed, so I have those vivid memories in mind. A few of the potential problems are outlined here: http://www.mobilindustrial.com/IND/English/Files/tt-grease-compatibility.pdf

Methodologically, the trial would be more valid if only Phil grease were used, but my main concern is how the mix will work for you.

I don't want to inject even a hint of unease in your trial, but I've heavily endorsed Phil grease alone and I'd feel terrible if the mix of greases somehow failed to adequately protect or lubricate your lovely Kranich by the time of your next inspection in 1000km. Might it be worth inspecting at an earlier interval to make sure all is well? Alternatively, might it be possible to disassemble the click-box for cleaning before a relube with Phil grease alone?

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 07:00:10 AM by Danneaux »

il padrone

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1331
Martin, the brace I refer to is the small clip that holds the extreme forward end of the Chainglider together. -- AJ

There must be some model variation or a redesign. Mine, bought a few months ago, has no such clip or brace at the front, just a notch and tab like the other fastening points.

Andre Jute

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4132
There must be some model variation or a redesign. Mine, bought a few months ago, has no such clip or brace at the front, just a notch and tab like the other fastening points.

Yes, http://www.hebie.de/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/2012/CG_flyer_10x10_2012_en.pdf shows the front tab, previously a loose piece about two inches long, that clipped on and then slid to click into the notch with an internal ridge, has now been integrated. From the same source, it seems to me likely that the Chainglider has been further simplified.

Does yours still have a change of direction between top and bottom runs of which is the inner and which the outer part? (Same question to you, Martin, if you please.) On mine at the top run, the section nearest the bike clips into the outer section, whereas on the bottom rung the section nearer the bike is wider and the outside piece clips into it. It is this change of direction, at the chainwheel covers, which makes fitting the Chainglider, in my model anyway, a bit tricky.

The new version seems much easier to fit.

I'm not likely to upgrade, as my Chainglider, which has already lasted longer than any other chaincase I ever had, seems good for many years more.

Andre Jute
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 07:49:07 PM by Hobbes »

Andre Jute

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4132
Hi Andre!

Though you did a wonderful job cleaning the Finish Line grease from the mating surfaces and engagement well of your click-box before applying Phil grease, I fear some of the FinishLine may have made its way into the interior.

I've had great success with Phil Wood grease for well over 30 years, but I've always used it alone, after removing all traces of any preceding lube (easy to do when the component is a hub, pedals, BB, or headset). I'm concerned about how well the Phil grease might lubricate or protect if it mixes with any remaining traces of Finish Line that remains in the click-box housing. Sometimes greases mix just fine and may well in this case; after all, the Finish Line has a high Teflon content and Teflon/PTFE is pretty much inert (it is the carrier that can sometimes cause problems; the Finish Line uses a synthetic base while Phil is petroleum-based). Occasionally, when different types of grease mix, the sum is less than the parts -- the mix can become runny and migrate, or it can become gummy and fail to protect. I have seen some Very Bad Things happen when automotive greases are mixed, so I have those vivid memories in mind. A few of the potential problems are outlined here: http://www.mobilindustrial.com/IND/English/Files/tt-grease-compatibility.pdf

Methodologically, the trial would be more valid if only Phil grease were used, but my main concern is how the mix will work for you.

I don't want to inject even a hint of unease in your trial, but I've heavily endorsed Phil grease alone and I'd feel terrible if the mix of greases somehow failed to adequately protect or lubricate your lovely Kranich by the time of your next inspection in 1000km. Might it be worth inspecting at an earlier interval to make sure all is well? Alternatively, might it be possible to disassemble the click-box for cleaning before a relube with Phil grease alone?

All the best,

Dan.

Thanks for the interesting speculation, Dan. It appears my first, longish, reply went missing. The short version is:

I'm not concerned at all. Those parts are so closefitting, if any grease migrated, it would be only trace elements. Secondly, there is no evidence anywhere else on my bike that the white teflon fights any other grease or reacts adversely with it. Thirdly, I'm not interested in theoretically "valid" tests. My parameter of validity is what the average cyclist in my position can achieve.

To clean out the clickbox completely for a "valid test" by your standards, one would have to disassemble it down to the last screw. Are you aware that once the screws fixing the cables are undone, new cables must be cut and fitted? This is described as an "odious job" by no less an authority than Chalo Colina who's been into Rohloffs longer than the lot of us together, besides his other achievements as a designer and machinist and bike mechanic. Your average cyclist would be well advised not to take his clickbox apart just to see what's in it, or on the offchance that some grease migrated into it, because chances are he'll never get it together again. A click box with cables cut to length fitted is about a hundred smackers or thereabouts in everyone's currencies. It just isn't economical to spend hours, and maybe several sets of ruined cables (even Chalo puts spares ready to hand when he does this job!), and the risk of maybe a botched job that doesn't work as well as what he has now, for Joe Blow to "save" a component that costs 40 bucks.

You buy an expensive hub gearbox like the Rohloff because it is unbreakable. To obsess about mickey mouse stuff like migrating grease entirely defeats the purpose and the concept.

The entire concept of a low maintenance bike, to the lengths I've long since taken it, is antipathetic to and totally out of sympathy with the roadie obsession of cleaning the drivetrain with cotton buds after every ride to make expensive but shortlived transmission components live a few hundred miles longer. My tests are aimed at a ride and forget bike. I've paid a lot for it in time, money and weight, so it would be both counterproductive and uneconomic for me to spend as much as five minutes on the 0.00000...00001 chance that three years or thirty down the line grease contamination will leave a small stain inside a forty Euro clickbox.

All the same, a fabulous speculation. Thanks for the intellectual massage, Dan.

Andre Jute

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8285
  • reisen statt rasen
Quote
The entire concept of a low maintenance bike, to the lengths I've long since taken it, is antipathetic to and totally out of sympathy with the roadie obsession of cleaning the drivetrain with cotton buds after every ride to make expensive but shortlived transmission components live a few hundred miles longer.
Andre!  :o You've got to stop with the Remote Viewing, or get an even sharper lens...you missed seeing me floss between the freewheel/cassette cogs and up inside the rear derailleur cage on my non-Rohloff bikes! :o ::) :D ;D

So, no worries, then. I hesitated a long time before posting but knowing how much you love your bicycle, I didn't want even the smallest risk of harm to befall it, so it seemed best to raise the possibility, however remote. Still, hard to break the lifelong habits of a maintenance-obsessive roadie and ex-Honda car service technician, so I'll keep my greases unmixed. Vive le difference!

All the best,

Dan. (...very much looking forward to the next Progress Report; ride, Andre, ride, so we'll get there soonest!)

Andre Jute

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4132
An interesting speculation, all the same, Dan.

But the smartest thing you said about Phil was that it is just as well I have a green bike, so no chance of Phil staining it.

Have you niffed the Phil, Jags? Best-smelling grease I ever had, and that includes Brylcreem.

Andre Jute

il padrone

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1331
Does yours still have a change of direction between top and bottom runs of which is the inner and which the outer part? (Same question to you, Martin, if you please.) On mine at the top run, the section nearest the bike clips into the outer section, whereas on the bottom rung the section nearer the bike is wider and the outside piece clips into it.

Yes, mine still has this swapping in the interlock of the pieces. I don't really find it too much of a hassle. Yet to get it back to use with the Surly steel ring though.


Re. the EX box and cables. I've set up two Rohloff hubs and connected the cables to EX boxes for each. Yes, it's a job I have no desire to repeat. I made the same mistake each time (forgetting to fit in the barrel-adjusters after cutting the cable to length)  ::) then had to refit the cable - something that you are not supposed to be able to do. Winding the cables around the barrel was seriously frustrating and with my wife's at the end I had the cables reversed in the whole run. To this day she still has top gear as 1 and bottom is 14 :P :D

I do not look forward to repeating the experience, especially out on the roadside. Happily the cables have given no sign of any problems.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 10:51:09 PM by il padrone »

jags

  • Guest
Julian still trying to figure out were to use it but yeah it does smell real nice  ;D ;D
my headset http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/stronglight-a9-1-inch-english-threaded-cartridge-bearing-headset-prod17409/?sessionid=aa84eda4f99164a72c5cc63c6ef2801e5b2477e3 i put in last year started to rock so i took the lot out but it sealed bearings so a waste of time using the phil grease there ::).

btw is there a better more reliably headset than that one. ;)

you two guys are class i could listen to you all night  ;D

il padrone

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1331
btw is there a better more reliably headset than that one. ;)


I've had a headset similar to this one since about 1995



Mine is not the XT but a lower model, probably LX. It is 1 1/8" and uses the same cartridge bearings, that I've only needed to change once in 17 years. God knows how many kms that headset has done. It's still in use on my son's bike with the same frame.

Andre Jute

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4132
That Stronglight A9 is supposed to be the cat's whiskers. Never had one though.

I have a Cane Creek S6, branded X-ACT, made by Cane Creek for Humpert in Germany, their model A118A. Fabulous quality but total overkill, of course. Humpert is here: http://www.humpert.com/de/bikeparts/suche/produktsuche/artikelnummer/?begriff=headset

Headset in German is Steuerlager or Steering Bearing.

I always check the Humpert catalogue first when I need a component because they have the best components made and don't charge boutique prices. Their threaded version of the same thing is at http://www.humpert.com/de/bikeparts/marke/produktart/einsatzbereich/produkt/?marke=ergotec&produktart=6&einsatzbereich=10&produkt=160
but I expect you want the 1" headset, which is the A101G in ali
http://www.humpert.com/de/bikeparts/marke/produktart/einsatzbereich/produkt/?marke=ergotec&produktart=6&einsatzbereich=10&produkt=159
or this one in steel (chromed)
http://www.humpert.com/de/bikeparts/marke/produktart/einsatzbereich/produkt/?marke=ergotec&produktart=6&einsatzbereich=10&produkt=72

I hope that what I'm suggesting here isn't a copy of the Stronglight A9 that Tange (who made the A9 for Stronglight) made for Humpert, because then you'll curse me.

Andre Jute

PS I see this at CRC, which is just up the road from you, and doesn't charge for delivery to the Republic. http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=39820
And Wiggle, which also delivers free, has the classic Dia Compe rebuildable steel headset that I thought was dead and buried: http://www.wiggle.co.uk/dia-compe-gran-compe-se-threaded-headset/ But down the page they brought it back in gold too, how vulgar. Wiggle also has the Token with needle bearings http://www.wiggle.co.uk/token-tk727cn-alloy-threaded-headset/
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 07:43:02 AM by Hobbes »

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8285
  • reisen statt rasen
I *think* jags is looking for a 1-1/8" headset for his Sherpa, but I'm not sure. He'll tell us soon enough.  ;)
Quote
That Stronglight A9 is supposed to be the cat's whiskers. Never had one though.
For 1" threaded headsets, they're long-lived -- I have over 40,000 miles on three of them, but they are unsealed and have wide cup clearances, allowing for lossy lubrication. They should be used with mudguards for best protection against water and dirt. They're not very well-finished, and are below Stronglight's usual execution.

My favorite by far is the old Stronglight Delta. It is the A9 with tight tolerances, much better machining, polishing, and anodizing, with o-ring seals and uses the same replaceable tapered roller-bearings and tapered races as the A-9. In my opinion, it is one of the most beautiful headsets ever produced and is a study in sturdy minimalism. Mine has gone well over 28,000mi on my 1983/84 Centurion Pro Tour 15. Some nice catalog photos of them from back in the day are here: http://www.bikepro.com/products/headsets/strong_hst.html Tange made a Roller2000 with very nicely finished alu cups modeled after their Falcon/Levin series, but with tapered roller-bearings. I installed one in my father's bicycle in the mid-1980s and its still there, good as new.

My other favorite dated from the very early 1980s, the Galli Supercriterium (produced in cooperation with Stronglight) fitted to my 1980 Centurion ProTour, also with tapered rollerbearings but with Ti races and unusual stepped labyrinth shields, doing fine at 35,000mi.

A recent favorite is the Saavedra, also with TRB, from Argentina. It resides happily on the tandem where it gets really rough service and soaks it all up happily. For photos, see: http://www.tearsforgears.com/2005/11/saavedra-headset.html

In my experience, for 1" threaded headsets, tapered rollerbearings are *it* for longevity and very much maintenance-free. Since they're also completely rebuildable in the same cups, well, they'll just go on indefinitely. I have a half-dozen pairs of Stronglight TRBs and races in backstock for rebuilds, but have never needed a single one. Fill 'em with Phil Waterproof grease and you're set for a very long time.

The old Onza Mongo II was in there as well. Miche make the Primato, a Delta lookalike with TRBs. See: http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=29717&category=3944

Roller-bearing headsets feel much different from ball- or cartridge bearings. They have a much greater bearing contact area (cylinder-lines instead of ball-points) and more friction as a result. They do wonders at quelling shimmy on bikes where this is a problem. Unfortunately, they're nearly a dead product, replaced by pre-assembled cartridge bearings with seals.

Dia-Compe/Dia-Tech offer a hybrid in 1-1/8: The Melon A-headset, which has a cartridge bearing in the top and hugely oversized tapered rollers in the lower bearing case. It is designed for dirt jump, freeride, and downhill use. See: http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/dia-compe-melon-a-headset-1-1-8-black-id19842.html

Shimano did a very nice job with their introduction of sealed cartridge bearings set on selform seats. These made the 'sets essentially self-centering, which solved a myriad of alignment issues and greatly extended life. The FSA Orbit X IIs fitted by Thorn are essentially rebranded Cane Creeks, even to the licensed split-cone alignment ring. What can kill them in a moment is over-tightening the preload screw on the top cap. My preferred method is to set them up loose, then rock the bike back and forth with the front brake locked, taking up a small amount of play at a time until no excess play is felt, then elevating the front wheel and bars and letting gravity determine if the final adjustment has enough slack. Get them too loose, and the bearing cartridges eat away at the cups (you'd think people would feel it, but not so much when crashing through obstacles off-road). I laid-in a spare for the Nomad; only USD$28 postpaid NIB from eBay. To keep this thread-relevant, I'll add I always coat the cartridge bearings and cup-inners with a light coating of grease for extra sealing, as FSA advise...Phil waterproof, of course.  One more step to the Zero-Maintenance Bike.

Hope this helps,

Dan. (...whose head sets on his neck)

Andre Jute

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4132
I *think* jags is looking for a 1-1/8" headset for his Sherpa, but I'm not sure. He'll tell us soon enough.  ;)

He has told us. It says 1" in his reference and on the SJS site if you follow the URL.