Author Topic: Wheels, Wheels, Wheels, Wheels Spam & Wheels  (Read 10788 times)

gover_1

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Wheels, Wheels, Wheels, Wheels Spam & Wheels
« on: July 22, 2012, 01:46:47 PM »
Hi all,
I think this is probably my first post on here though i have been a long time reader. I will shortly be receiving a thorn sherpa frame, my first Thorn frame!! This will be taking over touring duties from my 531st claud buttler bike. I chose the sherpa for its load carrying abilities over the club tour which just looked too similar to the Claud Buttler. I am hoping it will prove very stable and take full camping loads with no issues.

This bike will only be used for touring duties after a few rides to break it in. It will do 4 weeks touring on roads with a moderate load when i am cycling with my partner, it will then hopefully do another week or two with heavier loads and on a mixiture of roads and forestry tracks when i am touring solo. In the foreseeable future it will not be going anywhere more remote than the Hebrides. It would be nice to do a longer tour sometime, probably eastern Europe and down to Turkie.

i am not a fan of cycle maintenance and am looking to build an extremly reliable if somewhat over-specified bike. With all of the above in mind i would like your recommendations as to which wheels to go for.

Option 1: css Andra : Css appeals as it will hopefully mean less messing around with brakes and they will in themselves last a lot longer. However i am not sure whether they are not a bit heavy and really made for serious adventure cyclists which at the moment i am not

Option 2 : css Grizzly : CSS appeal but maybe these are a little light weight for my needs

Option 3 : Css andra rear, Grizzly front. Best of both worlds or a big mistake ?

Option 4 : forget Css and go for sputnik front and rear , in the middle strength  and weigh wise but sacrifice the css benefits. Are these up to fully loaded touring on forestry tracks ?

I would be interested to hear peoples thoughts. I will be building the front wheel with a dynamo wheel and will again be looking for a durable option. The dyanmo will be at load at all times powering devices by USB. Therefore unloaded free spinning characteristics are not of great importance but charging ability at low speeds are. Therefore would you recommend going for the Shimano hubs or is it worth paying twice as much for the schmidt hub ?

Sorry to pitch a first post with so many questions.
 
 

jags

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Re: Wheels, Wheels, Wheels, Wheels Spam & Wheels
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2012, 02:47:13 PM »
welcome gover well i ride a sherpa with shimano xt m770 groupset and to date i never had a moments problems with it ,same goes for the wheels  sum rhyno xt hubs 36 spoke bult by sjs and still true as the day there were made. i use slick tyres most of the time and on my last tour fully loaded i hade schwalble supreams  excellent ride  no punctures .
ok if ever i get money again ;D i will be going for a lighter front wheel with son dynamo. but othere than that the bike preforms  fantastic,theres a photo of it here somewhere on the forum our man Dan will point you in the ight direstion. ;)

Danneaux

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Re: Wheels, Wheels, Wheels, Wheels Spam & Wheels
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2012, 06:13:12 PM »
Quote
theres a photo of it here somewhere on the forum our man Dan will point you in the right direstion

Right here:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=1744.0

And a fine-looking bike it is, too! Jags' was one I used as a model to keep in mind when selecting my own Sherpa. It is a real beauty.

I'm dying to weigh in on this and several other threads, but am swamped with other tasks at the moment, so will have to largely defer on responses till tomorrow. I'll check in periodically today, but my responses will be uncharacteristically short.

All the best,

Dan. (who is working to deadline and meeting himself coming and going today)

gover_1

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Re: Wheels, Wheels, Wheels, Wheels Spam & Wheels
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2012, 07:53:19 AM »
jags, Dan many thanks for your input.
I think I have found the answer to my wheel quandary. From Germany I can get the sputnk , my rim of choice sitting between the grizzly and the Sandra in strength and weight in a CSS finish. No one in the UK seems to stock it in the CSS finish.

Unfortunately I am no particularly accomplished at German. I am thinking at ordering a built wheel from here http://www.meilenweit.net/shop/product_info.php?products_id=28002 but from what I can see they use double butted spokes throughout , I know that spa cycles specify single butted spokes on the drive side of their award winning wheels. Do people think  should buy just the rims and have them made up in the UK (marginally more expensive but certainly less convenient).

One other query for any German speakers , the refer to Vr and Hr rims on the drop down I am assuming this refers to rim size but have no idea, can anyone else work it out. On the same drop down against their front dynamo wheel it clearly states 26" so o problem their.

Thanks in advance for any help Anne is able to offer.

Mark

Danneaux

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Re: Wheels, Wheels, Wheels, Wheels Spam & Wheels
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2012, 08:30:03 AM »
Hi Mark!

I don't speak German, but GoogleTranslate is my friend. I have taken the liberty of translating the site for you, available here:
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.meilenweit.net%2Fshop%2Fproduct_info.php%3Fproducts_id%3D28002&act=url

Yes, they do specify double-butted spokes throughout (and very nice-quality Belgian Sapim spokes, at that). Unless I'm terribly mistaken, "VR" refers to the front wheel and "HR" refers to the rear (with freehub).

I can tell you my Dutch friend got essentially these same rims in 26" size when they were labeled by Exal, and has been very pleased with them over the last four years of touring. Last year, he completed a round-trip tour from Rotterdam to Santiago de Compostela and back without incident, and I can tell you they certainly held up well to riding loaded when we were on Belgian cobbles and Dutch sand roads. He says the rim braking tracks have held up particularly well on his non-CSS version. The Sputnik does, indeed, fall just about halfway between the Grizzly and the Andra. I wish it was a more widely-available option on complete bikes, as it is a "just right" solution for many people's needs.

As for the double-butted vs plain-gauge (unbutted) spokes on the freewheel side...I have built wheels  -- including those intended for very heavy touring -- both ways for other people. So long as the spokes were of equal gauge in the ends, both proved equally serviceable over time and distance. There is more spoke "wind-up" when building with butted spokes, so the builder has to be careful to allow for this if the wheels are to be tensioned properly and evenly. It is easy to do (I use smooth-jawed parallel-closing spoke pliers to stabilize the butted spokes as I tighten the nipples to final tension), but sometimes this step gets overlooked.

I hope this helps!

Congratulations on your new, soon-to-arrive Sherpa frame! A lovely design, I am sure you will love it. What color and size did you choose? After you build it up, do you think a photo or two or many might find their way to the Gallery board of the Forum? I'd love to see it and I'll bet others would, too. Welcome to the Forum!

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 08:37:12 AM by Danneaux »

Andre Jute

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Re: Wheels, Wheels, Wheels, Wheels Spam & Wheels
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2012, 12:57:56 PM »
VR is Vorderrad or Front Wheel.

HR is Hinterrad or Rear Wheel.

I haven't bought anything from Meilenweit but they are most reputable.

In general, I have found German and Dutch dealers scrupulously honest and eager to help. I have three rare bikes that I bought sight unseen on the Continent, and have not once been disappointed. (One dealer left me in the lurch, and Trek Benelux immediately stepped in and helped me reengineer their bike to be suitable for my purpose; wonderful company to deal with.) I live in Ireland and commonly find that components, delivered to my door, are cheaper from the Continent than the UK.

Sapim spokes are the ne plus ultra of spokes. I swear by the Sapim Strong myself and have them on my bike with the 170kg rating. Sapim Strong has a special angled head for Rohloff wheels and if you go for the lighter ones in their range, the Sapim Polyax nipple is good with the shorter spokes enforced by biggish hubs like the Rohloff and hub dynamos.

There is no great difference in efficiency between the best Shimano (Ultegra level bearings and seals) and the SON hub dynamos. I have both and the the Shimano clearly comes onto full song a bit earlier. Big deal. Since you're not planning to put a 100K on your bike, you could decide to save the money and choose the Shimano. The logic is that the expected service life of the Shimano is 40-50K, whereas the SON will probably go twice that long but costs more than twice that much. The SON isn't serviceable in your hands; the Shimano is theoretically serviceable in your hands (the service kit is as oil bath in which you're supposed to stand it) but most people find it more convenient just to buy a new one. Check the price difference in the wheel and delivered to your door, though -- it shrinks as a percentage. The SON has more bragging rights...

Andre Jute

gover_1

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Re: Wheels, Wheels, Wheels, Wheels Spam & Wheels
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2012, 05:08:08 PM »
Dan & Andre many thanks, I am definitely going to order some wheels from these guys, they look to be exactly what I am after.

Only choice now is which Dynamo. Do we have any idea of the expected service life of the N72. I am also interested in how the output at low speed compares between the N72 and the Schmidt, I seem to have a habit of putting M.C Escher styler routes together that go eternally up hill, with all the camping gear on board that means average speeds are usually pretty low, i therefore need to know that it is going to provide a reliable charging platform (my main interest in a dyanmo, not all tht bothered regarding lights, view them as being a bonus). Andre, when you say " I have both and the the Shimano clearly comes onto full song a bit earlier" do you mean that the resistance increases, or that ouput increases earlyer (or both?)

Regarding Pictures: They will definitely be going onto the forums, though this is going to be a long and steady build where I buy the components i want when i can afford them rather than building quickly to a budget. Hope to have it finished off early in the new year. I have a 535l frame, puchased off somone who never built it up, this leaves me in a quandrie as to whether to build flat, drops or trekking bars, my mind is changing on a daily basis at the moment.

Cheers
Mark

Danneaux

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Re: Wheels, Wheels, Wheels, Wheels Spam & Wheels
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2012, 05:25:35 PM »
Oh! Mark!

No matter which dynohub you choose...

One additional solution to high-powered low-speed charging with the Tout Terrain The Plug 2 lies in the TT P.A.T., or "Power Amplification Technology" cord that is places between the dynohub and The Plug. It is supposed to reduce the speed at which maximum charging is reached. I have mine here at home, but have not yet installed it (will on the Nomad), but thought I should mention it. You'll find more in the "Battery Charging from a Dynamo child board, here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?board=32.0

I bought the P.A.T. for the same need and reason as you -- a need to still produce the maximum charge possible on slow uphill crawls and goat tracks.

Best,

Dan.

Andre Jute

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Re: Wheels, Wheels, Wheels, Wheels Spam & Wheels
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2012, 07:47:16 PM »
Only choice now is which Dynamo. Do we have any idea of the expected service life of the N72. I am also interested in how the output at low speed compares between the N72 and the Schmidt, I seem to have a habit of putting M.C Escher styler routes together that go eternally up hill, with all the camping gear on board that means average speeds are usually pretty low, i therefore need to know that it is going to provide a reliable charging platform (my main interest in a dyanmo, not all tht bothered regarding lights, view them as being a bonus). Andre, when you say " I have both and the the Shimano clearly comes onto full song a bit earlier" do you mean that the resistance increases, or that ouput increases earlyer (or both?)

Mark, I've seen 40K and 50K, kilometres, quoted for the expected life of the cheapest Shimano dynohubs. A SON should last twice as long. The more expensive Shimano models should last as long as an Ultegra hub. Very few cyclists will discover whether any or all of this is at all precise.

What I mean about the Shimano v. the SON is that the Shimano delivers more current earlier. I'm a slow rider too -- I chat, I live in hills and on a hill, and I regulate my riding by my HRM, not my cadence -- but I like seeing a lot of light on the road from my lamps. The Shimano delivers perceptibly more light (= current for any purpose...) than the SON up to about 18-20kph, which is around 12mph.

You can ignore what you hear about the Shimano having more drag. Those numbers were taken when the Shimano was a jumped-up Sanyo dynamo  and have nothing to do with modern Shimano dynamos. For practical purposes you will never discover even in side by side tests whether the Shimano or the SON has more drag; we're talking like about a foot of elevation every kilometre for either of them. Not worth discussing.

***

Actually, if you think about it carefully, for a tourer in rough places, these relative mean time between failure questions are not necessarily the most relevant considerations. For someone who, like you, effectively isn't on a budget because you only wait a little longer to fit whatever component is necessary or desired for a good reason, the relevant question is, "How much will you pay for the highest available security in your dynamo?" In that aspect, the Shimano and the SON are both unlikely to fail, but the SON is, say, twice as unlikely as the Shimano to fail. If I were touring in the Australian outback, in Africa or South America, or in the more desolate parts of the United States, or anywhere in Asia, I'd argue that my life is definitely worth the extra hundred spondulicks or whatever, and I'd fit the SON, and consider the difference in price cheap insurance. Where I live (in Ireland, never further than a few minutes from people), that statistical argument doesn't hold much water, so the Shimano is more than adequate, possibly even preferable for being better matched to my needs.

Andre Jute

gover_1

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Re: Wheels, Wheels, Wheels, Wheels Spam & Wheels
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2012, 08:24:34 PM »
Andre
Many thanks for your very informative response, my approach is not to buy the most expensive components but to buy the components that best fit my requirements regardless of cost ( to a certain degree) my requirements are:

for the hub to be relatively reliable ( given the confines of operating within europe.) This will be achieved it seems by either hub even if this Schmidt may be slightly more reliable

For the hub to have relatively little drag under load (unloaded drag does not matter as it will be under load at all times when undertaking its intended purpose) either hub it seems would be roughly equal on these terms

Most importantly to produce useable levels of current at even the slowest touring speeds, here the shimano wins and therefore is the dynamo of choice for me

Thanks for all your help guys, order to be placed tomorrow!

jags

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Re: Wheels, Wheels, Wheels, Wheels Spam & Wheels
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2012, 09:05:46 PM »
gover 1 please let me know what wheel you decide on i'm in the market for a front dynamo hub as well but mainly for lights.. ;)

Danneaux

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Re: Wheels, Wheels, Wheels, Wheels Spam & Wheels
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2012, 09:19:37 PM »
Quote
If I were touring in the Australian outback, in Africa or South America, or in the more desolate parts of the United States, or anywhere in Asia, I'd argue that my life is definitely worth the extra hundred spondulicks or whatever, and I'd fit the SON, and consider the difference in price cheap insurance.
Exactly why I went for the SON, but mine is sort of a special case. I concur with Andre that for more ordinary use/environments/locale, the Shimano should be fine and then some.

I think you'll be very happy with the Shimano, Mark. I don't see a downside for you and your intended use.

All the best,

Dan.

triaesthete

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Re: Wheels, Wheels, Wheels, Wheels Spam & Wheels
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2012, 10:18:09 PM »
Hi Mark
welcome to the forum.
Have you (or anybody else) seen this new player on the hub dynamo market?  http://www.sp-dynamo.com/
They look very interesting indeed and may give Schmidt and Shimano a run for their money.

If you buy carefully, keep long and take pleasure in owning good kit as well as using it, there is an argument for Schmidt. They have truly beautiful and durable finish and detailing. Shells are machined to higher quality than Rohloff and anodized above Thomson stem standard! Never had Phil Wood stuff so can't compare there, but tangibly nice like 70's Campag Record hubs used to be.

Admitedly this is a very refined element in the heirarchy of needs! Andre I'm suprised you didn't see it from this angle.
Or does this make me an engineering Gollum?
Ian


Danneaux

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Re: Wheels, Wheels, Wheels, Wheels Spam & Wheels
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2012, 10:27:49 PM »
Quote
Have you (or anybody else) seen this new player on the hub dynamo market?  http://www.sp-dynamo.com/...
Yep. Been working on it for awhile. Making some progress. Will report more in a bit.

There's several *very* interesting new dynohubs out there...including one model that uses "magentic gearing" (induction used in a unique way) to boost output. Trying to get my hands on a copy for review as well.

More as I get it....

Best,

Dan. (Sleep? What's that?!?))

jags

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Re: Wheels, Wheels, Wheels, Wheels Spam & Wheels
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2012, 10:48:03 PM »
wow that hub looks great and if i got it right money conversion its only 108euro .
probable got it wrong as usual ;D