Author Topic: Sherpa Shimmy resolved with superb warranty response by Thorn Cycles  (Read 55601 times)

JWestland

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Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #120 on: July 27, 2012, 02:25:58 PM »
It's funny people bitching over sizing, whereas most bikes you are lucky if you get 5 sizes of them, with no choice of top tube length  ;D

565M = greatest weight capacity, a bit small, usable with drops
565L = lower weight capacity, better stability due to longer front-center, no drops
590M = 2nd highest weight capacity of the 4 choices, longest virtual TT I can use with drops, requires shorter stem
590L = greatest stability due to longest front-center, but lowest max weight rating, no possibility for drops
###(newbie question...)
So, am I correct in thinking that longer top tube equals less weight carrying capacity compared to a frame of similar size with short top tube?
Due to more flex?

To make up for the longer top tube, I will need to drop some stem length, but the 80mm stem is the same as I use successfully on my tandem and three other touring bikes with similar-length top tubes.
###I had to do this for my XTC, so far no problems.
Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

Danneaux

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Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #121 on: July 27, 2012, 04:08:29 PM »
Quote
most bikes you are lucky if you get 5 sizes of them, with no choice of top tube length
That's right! On some of my other bikes from the 1980s, only three or four sizes were offered across the entire line with only a single example that might have fit (i.e. 21", 23", 25" by c-t seat tube length...). Worse, these were often made "square", meaning they had identical geometry and top tube lengths to reduce production costs. "Sizes" meant the seat tubes and head tubes were simply cut longer or shorter to adjust standover. Stem sizing was the order of the day, especially if one was not fortunate enough to require the middle size, as I did. Everyone was the same distance behind the bottom bracket and (unless stem reach was adjusted) smaller people had a long reach to the 'bars and big people were cramped.

Also --just as you say -- no choice in top tube length. My sister had to deal with this. She is about your size, and she wanted a really nice mixte in the mid-'80s. Since all the offerings by her preferred maker had the same "square" geometry (only the virtual TT height differed), she was actually better off with the "21-inch" than the 19 because the larger frame was the same but put the handlebars a bit higher (and, thanks to the head tube angle, a bit closer as well, though it required a special quill stem with a 50mm reach). To get a reasonable seat tube angle, I had to use an SR MTB seatpost with a sliding track. The fit wound up perfect, but it took some real compensation to get it. And, that was the best sizing offered at the time. What is really nice here is once I settled on HB choice, I could hone in on other factors like getting the best fit (most important) and weight rating (also very important in my case). None of this would have been possible (or I would have had to be "lucky") with fewer offerings.

This is why some people "back in the day" could only get a decent fit by going for a custom frame. Compared to the "old days" of custom frames, Thorn's offerings are wide-ranging enough to comprise a near-custom fit. As close as can be without being truly bespoke.

Quote
am I correct in thinking that longer top tube equals less weight carrying capacity compared to a frame of similar size with short top tube? Due to more flex?
Spot-on, Jawine; that's exactly right.

For the same diameter, a longer tube will have more flex over its entire length than a shorter one. The opposite is also true; for a given diameter, a shorter tube will be stiffer over its length and more resistant to flex.

Quote
I had to do this for my XTC, so far no problems.
Good news! I am also fortunate to have had such good experience at the same 80mm length, so things bode well for a great outcome. I do have the option to change to a different 'bar at some point, and by leaving the steerer long, I have some height adjustment also. Once I see it and sit on it, I will have a much better idea. From all I can see, it will duplicate the Sherpa's fit as nearly as possible. It appears the 'bars will "float in air" at the same place as before, differing only in how they get there.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 07:13:20 PM by Danneaux »

JWestland

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Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #122 on: July 27, 2012, 04:20:46 PM »
I still suspect my XTC was build for a much taller person (525L, 170mm cranks, I clear top tube by just an inch and an half) but where's a will... :D

So my other bikes also have a 55 cm top tube but...bar that slope back (roadster, moustache) make for a lot less reach than the traditional top bar. One comes in just two sizes (roadster, 700C) the other one comes in 5 sizes.

My parents bought Koga Miyata Signature, with Rohloff (so going to want to try one during Christmas for the Rohloff) not sure how many sizes they do. But they have butterfly bars and geometry similar to Dutch roadsters.

Luckily I didn't have as much hassle as your sister! :)

It's very hard to find short reach vintage parts, generally only mountainbike/bmx stems have short reach. That puts a lot of vintage bikes out of my reach, bar some very common road bikes made for shorter men ;) (but then you can FORGET about a vintage 38cm bar again)
Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

JimK

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Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #123 on: August 06, 2012, 04:50:17 PM »
Thorn posted a couple videos with some commentary on their facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/Touringbikes

They loaded a Nomad with 43 kg and took it on a high speed descent to check for any shimmy or wobble - which they did not find!  .. ah, the first run had 65 kg of load!

Danneaux

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Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #124 on: August 06, 2012, 05:09:49 PM »
Hi All!

Thorn (The Company, Robin himself, and Andy the designer) have been pulling all stops to make sure my isolated shimmy problem was just that -- an isolated incident. They have really outdone themselves and have made the greatest possible effort all-'round, and have been in contact with me by email nearly every business day to advise, to update, and to include me in the process of equipping the new bike to best suit my needs.

Really, their efforts have been outstanding and beyond, and I am terrifically pleased!

The most recent effort has been to videotape and post footage of my new Nomad under test by Andy himself to thoroughly wring it out while carrying the same weight in similar conditions to what I will need to haul on occasion (as added benefit, Andy and I are nearly identical in height and weight). Robin has just passed the link from their Facebook page on to me, and has authorized me to share it with you. Here, go see for yourselves how the new bike handles under load, on downhill bumpy lanes with Andy at the helm at high speed (45mph/72kph): http://www.facebook.com/Touringbikes

Andy did the riding, Robin drove the van, and Cath Colenso did the video -- a real team effort.

I can't begin to tell you how heartened I am by their efforts and the results. It is the close of the business day for Thorn, but I will write and ask Andy if I may reproduce his last email verbatim, detailing his efforts and load strategy so we may all learn from it. If that is not possible, then I will summarize it instead. Thorn have done an incredible job in addressing a completely unanticipated and unexpected problem with one of their bikes, and it is so reassuring to find they have taken it so very seriously and have stood squarely behind their product. This is something we can all take reassurance in, and is very heartening indeed.

My sincere thanks to Robin, Andy, Cath Colenso, and all the team at Thorn Bicycles.

All the best,

Dan.

Well done! Well done, indeed!
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 07:15:24 PM by Danneaux »

JimK

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Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #125 on: August 06, 2012, 05:25:57 PM »
Andy and I are nearly identical in height and weight

Now that is what I call thorough above and beyond!

Certainly makes me happy that I picked such an exemplary producer for the bike I bought!


Danneaux

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Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #126 on: August 06, 2012, 05:49:48 PM »
Quote
Now that is what I call thorough above and beyond! Certainly makes me happy that I picked such an exemplary producer for the bike I bought!
Boy! I'll say!

You know...it is one thing to go carving downhill like that oneself, and something else altogether seeing someone else do it. I was genuinely concerned for Andy when he and Robin first proposed the fully-loaded road test. As hungry as I was for the data and results, just as much I didn't want Andy to get hurt.

I held my breath with all sphincters squinched when I saw those videos (even larger on the YouTube verson linked off the Thorn Facebook page). What if Andy meets a ca-- oh! There's one now! Neeeeeeeeowwwwwwwwwwwww! and it was past...and (from my perspective), on the wrong side of the road!!! And, don't forget, for Andy the brakes really were setup for the wrong-side of his road! And also drop handlebars, which are not his preference or what he is most recently used to.

I think he did a really outstanding job and was very brave indeed to give it a go. I am over the moon with joy, and very happy and relieved he came out safely as well.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 05:51:59 PM by Danneaux »

Andre Jute

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Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #127 on: August 06, 2012, 06:01:01 PM »
No hands at 45mph. Don't do this at home, kids.

That is a truly impressive pair of videos, in any bicycling terms, but in this thread especially for what they represent in customer and product care and exceptional service.

Andre Jute
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 06:02:46 PM by Hobbes »

JimK

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Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #128 on: August 06, 2012, 06:26:32 PM »
on the wrong side of the road!!!

Yeah, my heart skipped a beat at that point in the video, the first car. Crazy!

jags

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Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #129 on: August 06, 2012, 06:58:54 PM »
great bit of bike control ,they sure pulled out all the stops for this bike.
dan at last your going to ride one of the best touring bikes on the planet  ;)

jags

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Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #130 on: August 06, 2012, 11:01:08 PM »
mind you i hit 52mph on a decent in the uk somwhere in the cotswolds but i didn't let the bars go ::)
just shows how solid this bike is, my sherpa rides like a dream loaded and unloaded.
yeah great company  Thorn  not to many people would go to  this trouble to satisfy a customer thats for certain..
bet everyone on the forum is chuffed they own a thorn bike  ;D ;D ;D

Danneaux

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Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #131 on: August 07, 2012, 01:56:06 PM »
Hi All!

Andy kindly gave permission to post his email to me verbatim, detailing his testing strategy for the Nomad and detailing how much he carried on his test runs as well as how it was arranged. I found his packing scheme to be very useful. I have converted it to graphic form to keep in my handlebar bag for reference so I can duplicate his success on those occasions when I must carry a maximum load. I'll post that graphic later, but for now, I think Andy's description says it best in the man's own words...

Quote
Hi Dan,

How are you?

I have just come back from testing your Nomad Mk2 590M.

Robin drove the van behind me, whilst Cath took some video footage.

I let the bike roll down a moderately tricky and fairly bumpy descent, at various speeds.

I had 63.25Kg of load in total, including the actual bags themselves, this comprised of:-

3Kg in the bar bag.

10Kg in each front pannier.

2.5Kg in the 3 bottle cages.

7.75Kg mounted transversely in 2 dry bags, on the top of the rear carrier.

And 15Kg in each rear pannier.

This is more than I’d like to cycle with! And certainly more load than I’d wish to control with 44cm drop bars!

However, the bike behaved itself and I reached 42 miles per hour. As you will be able to see, when Robin sends you the link to the video, I was able to ride the bike “no hands” with my arms out like wings. I was able to tap the bars to promote a wobble and the bike corrected itself almost instantly. If I ever needed to carry a huge quantity of water, I’d feel confident that I could control the machine with an even greater load…it certainly wouldn’t be my idea of a fun day out though!

We also took footage of my second run, this time with the amount of luggage that I say the Nomad is nice to pedal with…”just” 10Kg at the front and we removed 10Kg from the rear panniers…so 43.25Kg in total.

You can see me cornering quite hard and deliberately hitting bumps without my hands on the bars. I also hit the bars fairly hard several times, whilst riding no hands in excess of 44mph and I also shook the bike…try as I may, there was no way that I could make the bike wobble. It handled superbly and it would have been great fun to carve some lines out of a technical hairpin descent.

I must admit to having been slightly nervous but now I have a warm glow of pride…I’m sure you’ll be very pleased with the way this machine behaves…we should be able to send it off tomorrow and I will make certain that it is very well packaged!

Best regards,

Andy  B.

Andy Blance
Designer
Thorn Cycles Ltd

Andy the Designer has occasionally been referred to as "Andy the Test Pilot" and that surely held true in his load-testing my Nomad; what a nice job he did for all of us! The load figures and placement should come in really handy whenever large loads are to be carried, as these are proven-in-practice.

Best,

Dan.

JimK

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Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #132 on: August 07, 2012, 02:13:58 PM »
My n-1 bike is a Workcycles Super-Transport which is a very sturdy bike and capable of handing large loads. But it has Nexus-8 IGH and roller brakes, neither of which work in the mountains. So bike n is the Nomad. I didn't get it so much for touring as for long distance utility. Traveling with a purpose, and as often as not with a load. All my experience with it so far has confirmed that I made a good choice.

This report is really wonderful capstone. Well earned pride, Mr. Blance!

Danneaux

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Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #133 on: August 07, 2012, 04:45:51 PM »
Hi All!

Here are the loads and placements Andy Blance used in testing my Nomad. I used his metric (Kg) figures directly, and then rounded the poundage conversions to the nearest whole pound in each case. Because of that, the pounds won't exactly equal the kilograms if you add up the totals. Go with Andy's figures in Kg as most accurate to avoid rounding errors.

Since I find it helps to visualize things graphically, I made these little diagrams to carry in my handlebar bag so I can match Andy's loading scheme when I must carry greater weights (i.e. during my actual desert crossings, when I must carry extra weight in water and food to sustain me).

Please note the difference in weights and placement for the two schemes ("Maximum" and "Nice to pedal").

Best,

Dan.

jags

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Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #134 on: August 07, 2012, 05:01:28 PM »
Wow thats brilliant Dan no idea how you do these things but that a fantastic way to show how to load your bike.
mind you i will never carry that kinda weight, i know you need it for your type of touring but i'll stick to plan b tarmac all the way nice and light. ;)