Author Topic: Sherpa Shimmy resolved with superb warranty response by Thorn Cycles  (Read 55610 times)

jags

  • Guest
Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #105 on: July 24, 2012, 02:45:28 PM »
hold onto your wig there bucko no need to loose it  ;)

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8287
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #106 on: July 24, 2012, 05:00:11 PM »
Quote
"This is essentially what happened to my Miyata 1000LT *after* my Great Basin tour in 2010,"? Did that bike develop a shimmy as well? I'm intrigued.
Hi Joe,

My timezone is offset from most on the list by about 8 hours so there can be a little delay before I see or respond to a topic if I'm asleep.  :D

My quoted statement meant the Miyata also developed a shimmy whose origin I could not definitively pinpoint, but it manifested differently and was almost certainly the result of crash damage, which was not a factor in Sherpa's case. The Miyata and I took four very hard falls that tour (including one that put me through a cattle-guard, ouch). The Miyata was fine before the trip, fine during, not-fine after (the last fall was just before the trip concluded, and came when I was blown off the road and down an embankment by a fuel tanker taking evasive action to avoid an oncoming car that passed in a no-passing zone. He needed the road shoulder more than I did). I have not stripped it to check, but I suspect the fork or rearframe (rear triangle) or both may have been tweaked, since I was fully-loaded in each fall (I'd not fallen in over 20 years, then hit the jackpot on that trip).

The difference between the Miyata and the Sherpa is the Sherpa has never fallen, either while parked or while being ridden. Also, the Miyata shimmied at all speeds and all loads "after" the trip was concluded, and the Sherpa did in correlation with a rear-based load (Sherpa handled front loads fine, front-and-mid loads fine, then declined with a rear load of any sort, degrading further with added weight, up to and at a normal touring load). The bikes also differed in geometry, design, materials, and the racks used, and there were normal variations in load and placement as well.

So, no common denominator I can see.

Jags is correct; when I selected the Sherpa to replace the Miyata, I chose it deliberately because it had larger-diameter tubing more likely to better handle a touring load. The Miyata used proprietary splined triple-butted tubing that did a manful job, but it was still of standard road-bike diameter. By any standard, a bike made with larger-diameter tubing should perform better, and Sherpa was selected specifially for expedition touring.
Quote
Legions have traversed the globe on his former model of steed
Absolutely! The Sherpa has been used with great success by many and I have never run across a similar reported problem. That's why I am convinced mine was an isolated anomaly as can happen with any production product, and is not in any way typical of the breed. Though I could not locate or address the cause even after extensive documented testing, there is some reason for this very atypical behavior and outcome. Thorn will be examining the frame in due course, and I am hoping very much they can identify the cause, though if it is internal (perhaps a flaw in the tubing or a weld that is internally incomplete or not of full depth and therefore invisible), we may never know.

Thorn have done an outstanding job responding to the problem, and the seriousness with which they are approaching it is reassuring to all.

Best,

Dan.

triaesthete

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 484
Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #107 on: July 24, 2012, 05:37:21 PM »
Dan, I do not believe you ever sleep ;)

Ian

JimK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1652
    • Interdependent Science
Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #108 on: July 24, 2012, 06:28:12 PM »
  I suspect the fork or rearframe (rear triangle) or both may have been tweaked,

This "tweaking" business gets into some really deep mysteries, how metals change properties through mechanical stress, corrosion, etc. A big smash-up can surely crack a frame. There must be some sort of relationship between how much of a load one is carrying and how big a bump one needs to hit before the frame falls apart. But there must be subtler ways a frame can weaken, short of cracking up.

No doubt, airline manufactures work through a lot of this. I fear that there just isn't enough money in bicycles to make it worth smashing up a few dozen to get the limits properly characterized!

We've got a ride planned here for tomorrow, to ride down to New Paltz and haul back the first semester's college textbooks, me and my girlfriend's teenage son. That ought to give us some nice loads to test our bikes!

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8287
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #109 on: July 24, 2012, 06:58:04 PM »
Quote
Dan, I do not believe you ever sleep
Not much, Ian, not much.  ;D
Quote
...haul back the first semester's college textbooks, me and my girlfriend's teenage son. That ought to give us some nice loads to test our bikes
I'll say, Jim! Do be careful; if those texts weigh as much as some of mine did, it'll be a load indeed, so watch your back on the un/loading. When you think of paper as compressed sheets of wood, well, the weight makes sense.

I agree; metal fatigue and changes in perceived ride quality are fascinating topics.

For years in the racing community, riders thought their frames "went soft" after a hard season of racing*. I believe I remember some tests and articles (Velo-News?) from the late-1970s that disproved this. Metallurgy and materials science argues against it, but riders were convinced. How much was the placebo effect, and how much was real? Back in the days of cotton hadlebar tape, team mechanics labored through the night to replace it for each following day. Riders always reported feeling a "boost" from what felt like a fresh start each day.

Fascinating stuff, unless it is happening to oneself, in which case it is as horrifying as it is fascinating.

All the best,

Dan. (*who knew some folks back in the day who got really good deals on team closeouts of wonderful frames at season's end)
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 08:11:11 PM by Danneaux »

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8287
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #110 on: July 25, 2012, 08:14:40 AM »
JimK wrote...
Quote
This "tweaking" business gets into some really deep mysteries, how metals change properties through mechanical stress, corrosion, etc...No doubt, airline manufactures work through a lot of this.

Jim, I have a film to recommend for you, based on just this plot:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Highway_in_the_Sky
...and...
http://www.aycyas.com/nohighwayinthesky.htm

It is available on video, and the trailer for it is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn9gvBYKSkc

Best,

Dan.

il padrone

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1331
Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #111 on: July 25, 2012, 09:16:21 AM »
Of course there was always the Comet disasters. But with aviation metallurgy we are talking about a quantum leap in stress forces and repetitive cycling compared to a bike frame.

Andre Jute

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4134
Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #112 on: July 25, 2012, 02:02:16 PM »
This "tweaking" business gets into some really deep mysteries, how metals change properties through mechanical stress, corrosion, etc. A big smash-up can surely crack a frame. There must be some sort of relationship between how much of a load one is carrying and how big a bump one needs to hit before the frame falls apart. But there must be subtler ways a frame can weaken, short of cracking up.

No doubt, airline manufactures work through a lot of this. I fear that there just isn't enough money in bicycles to make it worth smashing up a few dozen to get the limits properly characterized!

My Utopia Kranich, a bike with a track record going back to 1936, is thoroughly tested by an independent laboratory run by Ernst Bruch. At first I thought this was because they redesigned the frame with special lightweight double-butted custom-made Columbus tubes, but in fact it is because these particular Germans who built my bike are obsessives. They test everything. Unfortunately their latest Radgeber (Advisor magazine, current one No. 17) at http://www.utopia-velo.de/relaunch/RRG_content.a4d?seq=R001048 concentrates on showing the test of the Big Bull rims with the electric motor, but in earlier issues they published photographs of the frame under test. Here are some images screen dumped from the earlier Ratgeber No. 16 of February 2011.



From the left: Ernst Bruch, boss of the independent laboratory; I'm not letting him near my bike again! Fitted-up Utopia Kranich under test. Utopia Kranich bare frame under load. (BTW, I hadn't noticed before that I loom over Herr Bruch's shoulder, protecting my bike against testing to destruction!)

But, before you (not addressing you, Jim, I mean everyone) start demanding that Robin Thorn lash out for such tests, be fully aware that this sort of probably unnecessary tests adds to the cost of the bike, probably in the case of a small maker like Thorn by about £1500-3000 per bike.

***

Note the words "probably unnecessary". My bike is actually much lighter than it looks; in standard ex-factory trim, it is about 5kg lighter than a Gazelle stadssportief (commuter with touring/sporting pretensions like my Gazelle Toulouse) with a Nexus 8 speed hub gearbox, or a Trek Benelux equivalent. So the testing may have been necessary either to determine the 170kg total load rating, or to ensure it as a design target. I don't mind paying for it because I'm an obsessive myself, and the sort of German who buys the Utopia top models is clearly middle-aged and comfortably off; they like owning a bike made by obsessives without regard for cost, and don't care what it costs, as long as it doesn't break. Thorn is in a different market, and is famous as a value for money bike. That's an image that no one, least of all the customers, want to disturb lightly....

But, in general, bikes, and especially steel bikes, have evolved to a very high stage of development in over a century of continuous improvement by experience. Testing won't reveal anything much, and offer only marginal improvements, unless you want to push the boundaries, most often by going to stupid-thin tubes. (Or you might consider guaranteeing the Kranich frame for ten years with a 170kg load rating an excessive ambition, but I'm still not sure all the testing is actually warranted on a cost-return or an opportunity-cost basis. That it is justified by the reaction of the customers is an entirely different matter.)

***

I wouldn't bet against you if you said Thorn won't find anything visibly wrong with Dan's Sherpa when they cut it open across a joint. I think it by far most likely that some part of the rear of the bike was overheated in the welding, and not properly stress-relieved, that it is therefore harder-responding than the rest of the steel around it, and thus causes an oscillation. (Dan's jokey remark about racing bike tubes going soft in hard use is exactly the opposite!) My second bet, second by several lengths, is inadequate weld penetration. My third bet is a wrong tube length, so that the butt was cut off and the weld is in the thin part of the tube, and my suspect is the seat tube rear end, or one of the tubes joining there; that could conceivably create a micro-wriggle when the rear of the bike is loaded which by the time it reaches the front wheel could cause a nasty shimmy, but at the seat end would be invisible to the naked eye.

Put your money on here.

Andre Jute
Bikes I mention are illustrated at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLING.html

jags

  • Guest
Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #113 on: July 25, 2012, 02:45:22 PM »
Andre did you ever think of writing a detective novel ;) you and Dan would make a great team ;D

Andre Jute

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4134
Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #114 on: July 25, 2012, 05:20:16 PM »
Andre did you ever think of writing a detective novel ;) you and Dan would make a great team ;D

Sure thing, Jags. CoolMain will be publishing a detective novel called EIGHT DAYS IN WASHINGTON in a couple of weeks. http://coolmainpress.com/home.html -- Andre Jute

jags

  • Guest
Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #115 on: July 25, 2012, 05:38:17 PM »
Nice one Andre i walked into that  ::)

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8287
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #116 on: July 25, 2012, 05:44:07 PM »
Quote
Put your money on here.
Done. I'm betting on exactly one of the variety of factors you describe, Andre. Couldn't have put it better myself, and the scenarios you describe are about all that's left, given there's no flaws visible. Very nicely outlined and described and one of those flukey things one cannot really expect.

All the best,

Dan. (hat-tip to Andre)

macspud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 730
Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #117 on: July 26, 2012, 02:46:47 AM »
Dan,

I'm glad to hear that you're getting a replacement bicycle! I haven't been keeping up with your trials and tribulations recently as I've had some myself on the computer front.

I've got lots of reading to catch up on the forum and started by reading through this thread.

I'm interested to know what size frame you've settled on for the Nomad replacing your Sherpa, is it going to be the 590M, I hope you manage to get a good fit as when we talked about it before, you thought that your Sherpa was a better fit than the new range of Nomads would allow for your needs, but thought that the 590M would be the closest to the fit that you like.

It does open up scope for many future theads, the Nomad build, shake downs, thoughts on the Rohloff hub, etc etc. I'm looking forward to much more good reading!

All the best,

Iain.
 :)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 04:21:04 AM by macspud »

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8287
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #118 on: July 26, 2012, 07:52:02 AM »
Hi Iain!

Welcome back; sorry to hear you've had computer woes. They never go down at a good time, do they?

To answer your question directly, I am going with the 590M. To see the reasons, read on...

Sizing was one of the things I was not sure about, because the Nomad Mk2 has different geometry from the Sherpa Mk2, so I asked Andy, who kindly weighed in with suggestions and guidance.

Really, it was a matter of first going for a size that fit best given my selection of handlebars, then looking at which frame would give me the greatest cargo capacity and the most stability. As the brochure says, most people could ride two sizes of Nomad, and the choice depends on handlebars and whether one would use a sus fork or not. That gave me four possibilities:
565M = greatest weight capacity, a bit small, usable with drops
565L = lower weight capacity, better stability due to longer front-center, no drops
590M = 2nd highest weight capacity of the 4 choices, longest virtual TT I can use with drops, requires shorter stem
590L = greatest stability due to longest front-center, but lowest max weight rating, no possibility for drops

It is extremely unlikely I will ever run a suspension fork, so there is no need to allow for that. For the kinds of riding I do and where I go the softer ride would be nice, but I cannot accommodate the greater maintenance schedule of a sus fork, and it would also limit my pannier options (perhaps to only a Tubus Swing font rack; otherwise, HB bag and rear panniers only). If I need more suspension, then a change in tire pressure or section width/profile would be a better choice for me. A rigid fork also provides fixed geometry, and will eliminate a host of handling variables that would be present in a sus fork because of its range of travel and as a result of wear.

I agonized (truly!) over handlebar choice. I've always used drops, and now pretty much have to, thanks to a series of past injuries, including the long-ago car accident that started me cycling "with intent" while in high school. The capper was falling out of a hot-air balloon that was in pullout and catching myself on the way out (Didn't let go! Not for nothin'!!! :o). I find I need to ride in a position where my palms face each other or nearly so. I really thought I might be able to adapt to straght 'bars by using bar-ends to achieve an on-hoods position and gave it serious consideration.

To make sure, I needed to try some 5° 'bars and 'ends in my likely size, so I asked my same-size neighbor if I could try holding the ones on his MTB, and...it just didn't work for me. I discovered the bar-ends put my hands far wider than my usual 44cm drops' brake hoods, and I had no braking available while on the 'ends. When I moved in to get the brakes, my ex-hyperextended/hyperflexed wrists bent sideways, my tendonitis-y elbows went akimbo, and the old rotator cuff/shoulder separations yelled at me. I could manage briefly, but not for sustained riding. I remembered Tektro once offered an adapter that clamped onto the ends of brake levers to offer access from bar-ends, but a call to Tektro showed it was discontinued some time ago and is not even available through eBay (they came OEM on some pedalecs). Even if I could put my brake levers very close together with a narrow straight-bar option, I would have been too-wide on the 'ends where I would spend most of my time. So, drops it is. They just don't hurt. I really do use the drops when plowing into headwinds; otherwise yes, most of my time is spent atop the brake hoods. On the Folder I am building, I am going with a short-reach variation on bullhorn/pursuit 'bars that duplicate the tops and brake hoods position of my present drops sans hooks (makes a smaller fold, same 44cm width with reversed interrupter v-brake levers where the hoods would be). That is a possibility to consider in future for the Nomad, but the drops are a do-all solution for me with many more hand positions to alleviate fatigue.

So, no  sus-fork meant I could go "bigger" and the drops meant I had to go "shorter", so a 590M it is. It is a compromise in the fewest ways, an advantage in most, and looks like the spot-on fit for me with drops if the stem reach is shortened. The rated maximum weight capacity is the second-highest (missing first by a small margin) and much higher than the 590L. The 590M Nomad's front-center measurement (using the virtual top tube as a proxy) is 35mm greater than my Sherpa Mk2, and the chainstays are longer, which should result in weight further within the bicycle's wheelbase, also for greater stability.

To make up for the longer top tube, I will need to drop some stem length, but the 80mm stem is the same as I use successfully on my tandem and three other touring bikes with similar-length top tubes. I am hoping a happy side benefit of the shorter stem will be less of my weight over the front hub, which is bound to help stability as well. It is generally accepted a handlebar bag should be lightly loaded because it carries weight high and forward. Well, what about the rider, who is heavier? It can only help having more of my hand-contact weight further within the bicycle's wheelbase.

If I get old someday, the shorter top tube allows for some adjustment to a more upright position using arc, H, or comfort 'bars to get my palms more parallel. I've asked the steerer remain uncut so I can best determine where to place the 'bars vertically (and can determine how best to package the Tout Terrain The Plug 2 and Power Amplification Technology booster cable). I have found long ago the "right" position for me is to have the tops of my drop handlebars at the same height as my saddle-top. My preferred position on the bike is with a 45° back and 45° arms when on the brake hoods (see pics). Doing so puts about equal weight on my hands and seat and puts my head/neck in a good position and has worked well on 300-400km day rides. This comes closest to the model picture labeled  "Fairly Relaxed" in Thorn's very helpful new sizing guide, available here: http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/SetUpHiRes.pdf

Mid-tube standover on the Nomad with 2.0" tires is the same as on my 560S Sherpa Mk2 with 1.75" tires, so I will have adequate standover even on damp desert playa and on goat-tracks. In fact, I could even go up one tire size on the Nomad and still equal the Sherpa's standover.

I have decided to pass on getting the newer Berthoud shifter in favor of mounting the standard Rohloff shifter on a 50mm T-bar under the stem on the right side. For a brief change of position and some trail/single-track use, I want to be able to mount and use my 'cross-top interrupter levers, and the Berthoud took up too much room for that (I could have gone with a single interrupter lever on the left side only).  The T-bar placement is simple and about the same reach from the brake hoods as I currently have to a bar-end shifter. It also allows me to change handlebars at a later date and leave the Rohloff shifter and cabling undisturbed. I have downtube shifters on some of my other bikes, and the reach to the T-bar isn't as far, so hopefully it will be fine. If my choice proves disastrous, I could someday purchase a Berthoud and put it right.

The net result of choosing the 590M with a shorter stem and drop 'bars is my position should be very close or identical to what it was on the 560S Mark2 Sherpa, with the added benefit of greater cargo capacity and a longer front-center for stability.

Robin and Andy's response since getting involved has been outstanding, and they have worked as a team with me to define and refine and address my needs. They have both been in contact by email every single business day without fail, and all parties are copied so we are all on the same page. Their reponse has been phenomenal and is reassuring to us all. They have taken this problem very seriously indeed, and have worked very hard to address it. My sincere thanks to them.

Thanks for your kind words, Iain; I'm also looking forward to the Adventure ahead!

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 08:46:29 AM by Danneaux »

Andre Jute

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4134
Re: Wow! Whoa!...woe. Severe Sherpa shimmy under load.
« Reply #119 on: July 26, 2012, 09:31:55 PM »
Some of the people who write blithely and ignorantly on the net about bike fit should read Dan's post above, and Andy Blance's brochure, and smarten up their information base.

Can't be more than handful of bike-makers on the planet who can offer one chap of fixed size four bikes that will all fit him, each with a proper technical rationale.

What an amazing advertisement for their wares the people at Thorn have turned one rogue Sherpa into!

Andre Jute
Sometime creator of multinational household brands
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 05:01:09 PM by Hobbes »