Questions re: Foreign purchase of Sherpa (USA)

[Danneaux]

Hi All,

After some years of wanting and waiting, I am now at the point of placing an order for a Thorn Sherpa.  I have read Thorn's details for local sales assistance and delivery and am most impressed, but I am unsure how best to proceed for purchase from the United States and delivery to me on the Pacific Coast.  I really don't know what path a foreign order takes after it is initiated or what to expect.

Is there a FAQ for foreign purchase and delivery, perhaps by country?  I have questions about typical shipping costs, placing a carrier claim in the event of shipping damage, and what I might expect in terms of US Customs fees and duties, or when when the bill for same might arrive.  I've scoured the forums here and gained some insight, but not much in terms of specifics and recent information.

I have sent Thorn an email this weekend with my contact telephone and hope to hear from them at the start of the business week.  I've filled out the order form, checked my size, color, options and preferences, and listed my measurements and those of my favorite current bicycle for the setup dimensions; I'm prepared!

I'm most grateful for any thoughts, insight, and advice on foreign purchase and experience with the process and also beyond dealing with Thorn, which seems to provide exemplary assistance and customer service.  Their staff were surely kind to answer my early emailed questions promptly and completely and I was most impressed to receive an in-depth reply from Andy Blance himself about the design.  That tipped the balance toward an immediate purchase.

I am impressed by the forum and its members and the high quality of interaction here, and I thank you in advance for any information you may share.

Best,

Dan.
Oregon, USA

[JimK]

I ordered a Nomad last October & it arrived in November, a few days before Thanksgiving. The customs bill - 11% - arrived a few months later. I didn't find it necessary to file any claims, so I can't comment on that. It was a FedEx truck that came to my door, though it didn't leave GB by FedEx. Some import agent at JFK in NYC handled the import process - that's where I sent the customs fee.

I paid Thorn with several wire transfers through my bank. I was trying to hedge any currency fluctuations. But the bank fees & exchange rates were horrible. See if you can't use a credit card instead - I think the rates are better.

I'm having a blast with my bike - lots of delightful territory to explore here in the Catskills! Slowly I am getting stronger and extending my range. My fantasy is to visit as many farm stands around the area as possible, to haul home the best of the harvest!

[Danneaux]

Oh, thanks Jim!  That's just the sort of nuts 'n' bolts information I was seeking and I'm grateful for the response.

I've long wanted a Thorn, and realize I've been in love with the bike for some time, so it is good to hear you like yours as well.

Thanks also for the suggestion of using a credit card.  I've been on the phone to the issuing banks, and it appears some have higher "foreign transaction fees" than others.  Right now, it appears I may be looking at 3%.  Add that to the 11% customs bill plus shipping, and it is going to cost a bit to get the bike here.  Offsetting that is the British VAT credit.  I would imagine as a rule of thumb, I could come pretty close by converting the Thorn price in GBP to dollars and calling it good.

I'm wondering if it might be possible to pay the entire cost of the bike at once, thus locking in the price now.  I'm a bit concerned next week's congressional budget decision will result in a huge dollar-valuation fluctuation no matter how it goes.

By any chance, do you recall what the shipping fees were last October?  It has been awhile since then, but would give me a base to work from.  Trying to budget up-front for not only the bike and accessories, but the ancillary costs as well.

Here's hoping you'll have lots of farm produce to bring home; our weather has been terrible for farmer's crops -- rainy and cold this summer in Oregon until this very weekend.

Best,

Dan.

[JimK]

Looks like 360 GBP is what I paid, so $550 more or less, for shipping.

What nailed me on wiring money was not so much explicit fees, but the exchange rate. It was like 1.66 dollars per pound when yahoo finance was listing 1.61 dollars per pound. I wish I had done my homework better!

I am sure you could pay the whole bill up front. The news out of D.C. is certainly unsettling! Truth is, that's a lot of my justification for the bike. I read folks like

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/
http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/

so I am thinking a sturdy bike might be just the ticket in five or ten years.

[JimK]

BTW I was living in Hillsboro OR not too long ago. Lots of nice biking around there!

[Cedric]

Hi, both .

Just for comparision: the custom fee in my country (Ukraine) is 45$ on items cost more then 200 EUR.
Plus shipping, which is, in my case a little more then UK VAT deduction, so you could easily get to 50% addition to price-list.

Here in Ukraine I have no choise of touring bikes of that quality, but to import one from German or UK. Approximately at the same cost.

Bur in US I read about Bruce Gordon, Co-Motion, Rivendell (Rohloff equiped, 26th, tourers), Bilenky, Seven which bikes seems to be at the same range of cost and quality.

So why bother with overseas import?

Regards,

Cedric.

[JimK]

I didn't do a thorough price & feature comparison... but the figures I sketched indicated that the Thorn was quite competitive with the USA brands, despite all the import expense.

I just learned that one of the Co-Motion founders is a cousin of one of my childhood friends! Would that have swayed my decision, had I known?

[Cedric]

Hi, Jim .....

Definitely the world is small. 

For Dan - Co-Motion is also located in Oregon, if I'm not mistaken.

[Danneaux]

Thanks, all, for the kind and insightful responses.  I think the thing to do is finalize the build sheet and then commit to the entire purchase to lock-in the price at the current exchange rates.  It is a gamble, for sure, but the dollar has already dropped about 1.3 cents against the GBP since yesterday and I am very concerned at the effect of the US budget ceiling confirmation or denial.  Either way, I believe the exchange rates are going to be affected, and the stock market is reflecting that today as well. If I guess wrong the the dollar climbs in value...well, I'll still own a very nice bicycle.

JimK and Cedric, thanks also for the suggestions to consider a domestic (US) builder.  I live in Eugene, and have toured Dwan and Danny's Co-Motion facility several times and some years ago, arranged university bike-class tours of Bruce Gordon's shop when he was also based in Eugene.  Gary Hale is another local-area builder I've been lucky to know for nearly 30 years.  Clearly, we're fortunate here in the US -- and the Northwest in particular -- to have a number of fine builders whose workmanship and products are exquisite.  Portland is even richer soil, with Sacha White (Vanilla) and others.  I build frames myself for a hobby, so I am familiar with what goes into a custom frame and bicycle.  With materials costs, component costs, paint/powdercoat and my time, I really couldn't match the value of a Sherpa as a complete bicycle.  That might not be the case if I went with 700C wheels and components I already have and simply made or purchased a frame, but when you add in the cost of all the 26"-wheeled components, it makes sense to buy instead of make. That's why I have decided to purchase one.

Nice as these domestic framebuilders' products are, they don't quite fill my needs.  I am a long-distance solo adventure rider who has to carry a great deal of weight in water stores for desert crossings where only non-potable alkali water sources prevail.  For an example, see: 

http://giantloopmoto.blogspot.com/search?q=Daniel+Wood 

I am fortunate to own a variety of nice touring bicycles to use, but it is plain I need something more robust and while I might prefer a Rohloff-equipped Nomad, my budget allows for the derailleur Sherpa.  The Co-Motion Americano, for example, is a wonderful frame/bicycle and well-reviewed.  I was most impressed when I saw it, but the Sherpa is a better fit for my purposes and -- despite the unenviable situation caused by the poor Dollar-Pound exchange rate -- is a relative bargain.  The Co-Motion would be considerably more expensive even so. 

And, too, there's the indefinable...I have already fallen "in love" with the satin black 560S Sherpa.    Hard to argue with that.

Cedric, you make a very good point of comparison with other countries. I spent some time looking at the tariff schedules for other countries as well as the US, and was shocked to find there is something close to a 213% tariff on bicycles imported to Thailand if I read correctly.  There is a Thorn Owner's Group there; they must be dedicated.  They've posted some terrific photos of their bicycles that can be found with a Google or Bing image search.

That all said, it takes an act of faith to buy a bicycle by this means unridden and sight-unseen.  Offsetting that is this very helpful user's forum and the words of many happy and satisfied customers and the reassurance Thorn will work through any problems that might arise.  The Thorn online sales brochure has really helped as well, and I've nearly read the print off the pages, looking at every detail.  I hope it will work out alright in the end, and have faith it will.

Thanks again for your input, thoughts, and suggestions, and please add any more you can.  I also have questions about tire selection, and will address those in a separate topic in the appropriate forum.

Best,

Dan.

[Cedric]

Hi, Dan .

Sure, there will be no default as there is still no default for Greece yet.  Let's see next Tuesday . Other way it will hurt TOO many around the Globe.

In October 2008 Ukrainian UAH depreciated against USD up to 40% and I would say that we were a little unhappy with that. So do not be afraid of small fluctuations up to 10% you will forget about them in several months of happy riding.

When I found out about Thorn and read thoroughly all the booklets I also started the comparison with other similar bikes (especially German which are closer to Ukraine). Many information I found on this forum. And, without telling you further details, certainly you know better, came to the conclusion that Thorn has much more advantages than any other.

About colour - don't you think that it would be much better in bright colours (yellow, red) for better visibility on the roads?

Regards,

Cedric.

[Danneaux]

JimK, While the shipping costs seem jaw-droppingly high, it is reassuring to know they are in line with what you paid; thanks.  May I contact you offline if I have specific questions?

Cedric, as to color, I think it might be best to start a new thread for that discussion so this one stays on-topic for foreign/USA purchase to make future searches easier.  If you start a new topic on color, I'll be glad to weigh in with an opinion!   You may contact me offline if you wish.  It sounds as if we are both moving toward purchase of a Thorn.

Thanks, guys. -- Dan.

[JimK]

  May I contact you offline if I have specific questions?

Certainly do - my email address is on my profile.

Jim

[Danneaux]

Well, everyone, after an agony of indecision -- after all, I have never ridden or even seen a Thorn Sherpa in person, and it is a lot of money _to me_ -- especially with nearly USD$1000 added to the purchase price in shipping, credit card conversion fees, and US Customs duties of 11% due -- I have now purchased a Thorn Sherpa.

I made the decision to pay all at once to lock-in the present exchange rate.  My worst fears regarding dollar valuation fortunately came to naught when the new US budget ceiling was approved this last weekend, and whatever happens from here on, I will have a wonderful bicycle to enjoy, I'm sure.  I stayed awake late last night to catch Thorn early in their day, and I have to confess I was so keyed-up with excitement, I didn't fall asleep till after 3:30AM.

I viewed the entire experience through a lens of some anxiety over the process and purchase for reasons stated above, *and* I can also assure prospective buyers the nice folks at Thorn really have done everything they said they would.  They answered my emailed questions promptly.  If something was overlooked, then a followup question by me resolved the concern with answers from Sarah, Lisa, Steve, or Andy Blance himself.  Conversations by telephone worked even better, and I wish I had gone that route throughout.  Lisa Parsons is one of the nicest people in the world to deal with, and Sarah did a great job too.  I'm sure this is true of the entire staff. 

Having been through the process, I would suggest placing a call when working toward placing an order; you can interact with the person at the other end in real-time so questions are answered immediately.   If Thorn staff are busy, do leave a message and they will get back to you one way or another.  The prospective buyer fills out Thorn's online form with all requested measurements, then just emails it as a PDF attachment to Thorn.  All will be put in writing and sent back as an email quote for your review, so you needn't be concerned about having a written record.  The emailed quote gave me a chance for full review and I made some changes as a result -- I changed rims, tires, and fenders and deleted some items I was unsure about.  The sales form and resulting quote/build sheet is well-conceived and executed; ask Thorn to email a screen shot rather than a printout, as it captures all the quote/build sheet to the margins so all information is included.

If there is a shortage of parts or colors when my time arrives, I'm certainly happy to wait to get what I'd like.  In terms of process and timeline, Sarah advised me there is currently a 5-week waiting queue.  She said the boys in the shop will build the wheels first and have them waiting and when my place in line comes due, they'll start assembling the bike to order.  When it is ready, they'll call or send an email (I prefer email so I'll have a record and won't miss a call) and tell me they're ready to ship.  From that point, it might take around a week to reach the U.S. and then it will take however long it takes to clear U.S. Customs before it is released to make the trip cross-country to me on the West Coast here in Oregon.  At present, Thorn ships by Tuffnell's for the UK leg and they hand-off to TNT in the U.S.  I'm wondering if TNT in turn might sub-contract with FedEx for stateside residential delivery, based on other U.S. customer's reports.   Sarah carefully rechecked the build sheet/quote and price a fourth time and confirmed I wanted the 560S frame size with drop handlebars and the satin black and with uncut, 400mm steerer (in my size frame).  All was correct, so I placed the order for everything including shipping.

For others in this position, I would suggest notifying your credit card company a week or so in advance that you plan to make the purchase sometime in the two weeks or so to follow.  That way, they will be alerted to the purchase and it will go through straight away and not be refused on concerns of fraudulent activity.  I'd also suggest leaving that two-week window for purchase so you will have time to make any changes to the initial quote and can work things out with Thorn if there is are concerns.  For example, I was a bit concerned my Zefal HPX pump might not fit the pegs if I chose the 2" tires and 55mm fenders, but Lisa dispelled that worry straight away; it will be fine.

The only issue that gave me pause was the elimination of VAT for foreign orders.  Try as I might, I could not make Thorn's figures come out to a 20% reduction until I learned how the VAT tax is structured and calculated.  Unlike state sales taxes where the item is priced conventionally as tax is added at the register, the VAT results in a tax-included price and the reduction comes on that.  I would suggest American buyers search online for a VAT calculator or Google "How to calculate UK VAT" for help.  Once I did that, all the figures fell into line and Thorn's calculations proved spot-on.

I hope this helps the next prospective American buyer of a Thorn.  Now, the only worry is whether it will arrive damage-free, but Lisa assures me it will be properly insured at their end and they will assist me in making things right should the worst happen, so really no worries at all!

I can't wait!

Best regards and thanks to all for your input, thoughts, and shared experiences; they helped a lot.

Dan.
Eugene, OR -- USA

[Danneaux]

I should point out I consider Thorn's actual prices for the Sherpa to be not only fair, but a bargain for what is offered.  The real difference in price is largely accounted for by the dollar-pound exchange rate and incidental fees and costs (shipping, duties, credit card conversion fees that can be avoided in some cards) that have nothing to do with Thorn's pricing structure.  Their bikes remain a remarkable deal in my opinion, particularly for design and value received. -- Dan.

[JimK]

Hey Dan - while you are waiting for your Sherpa, here is a nice journal

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=1r4vFZo&doc_id=8134&v=Ta

of a young fellow currently on a major tour, riding his own new Sherpa!