Author Topic: Sacrilege ?  (Read 8241 times)

energyman

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Sacrilege ?
« on: September 11, 2022, 09:44:24 PM »
Would it be considered sacrilege to fit an assistance motor to an RST ?
Just to help one with the hills of course.

Danneaux

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Re: Sacrilege ?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2022, 01:05:49 AM »
Quote
Would it be considered sacrilege to fit an assistance motor to an RST ?
Just to help one with the hills of course.

Well...ATMO ("According To My Opinion" as American framebuilder Richard Sachs is fond of saying in his online communications) I think if e-assistance will keep you riding out on the bike and enjoying much of what cycling is all about*...

Why not? :)

There are many options that don't add much in the way of weight or bulk that will give you a needed boost for hills...but they won't generally have the battery capacity/range/Coulombs needed for longer-distance use. I'll defer at this point to the greater expertise of Andre and other Forum members with more firsthand experience in e-Bike conversions.

All good luck; please keep us apprised if you forge ahead, as I think the final build will be really interesting. The RST is a pretty light platform so the final e-Bike should feel pretty lively.

Best, Dan.

*"Digital" electrification vs "analog" pedaling? I remember reading of similar pushback in the bicycle community when early derailleur drivetrains replaced Fixed-gear flip-flop hubs in road racing. It was thought to be "cheating" when the "father of touring", Velocio, pioneered the field. Soon every bike in the peloton was so equipped. I keep and ride a Fixie on occasion for its simplicity, its unmatched use as a device to get into shape quickly, to keep my pedaling technique honed and to get back in touch with how cycling was "at the beginning" of Safety bikes. It is elemental fun but ill-suited to vast changes in terrain that are a doddle on geared bikes.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2022, 01:15:13 AM by Danneaux »

PH

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Re: Sacrilege ?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2022, 09:00:25 AM »
I know some may consider it heresy, but there's nothing religious about cycling, even if Thorn consider they've written a Bible!
Neither do I subscribe to the idea that E-bikes ought to be restricted to those that need them.  They can be very useful in that regard, I know several people that would no longer be cycling if they didn't have that E-assistance.  But there's also, even amongst those that consider themselves cyclists, a growing appreciation that sometimes it's nice to have the choice and the idea that they're cheating seems to be diminishing. I've never understood just who it is anyone thinks you're cheating.
So yes, if it's practical and gives you something you want, just do it.  On the practical level, the bike might restrict the options, the Rohloff excludes a rear hub motor and the EBB would add complication to a mid-drive (I haven't done it so I'm not even sure it's possible) That just leaves front wheel drive, which I know nothing about, though it seems to work well enough for those who do.

UKTony

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Re: Sacrilege ?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2022, 10:58:06 AM »
Thorn do appear to offer conversions to some of their models using the Pendix system. Not cheap and the RST is not mentioned but maybe worth discussing the possible  options with them.

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/ebike/pendix-motor-kit-300w-long-reach-magnet/

Andre Jute

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Re: Sacrilege ?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2022, 11:41:46 AM »
If the conversion keeps you cycling, I don't see that ideology or even religion comes into it.

You may be somewhat limited if you want to keep a Rohloff or derailleur setup at the back, and the eccentric bottom bracket keeps you from using a central motor with a Rohloff, unless you want to add some manner of chain tensioner.

You used to be able to get rear wheel hubs with clusters of gears on them for derailleur use, and may still, but they were the most unsophisticated of all the early electric motor installations but also the most brutally efficient. I mention this because theoretically a rear installation reduces the mess of wires that are -- believe it or not -- the biggest practical bother about fitting your own conversion, and can also be ugly on a careless conversation commercially done. Note the "theoretically"...

All of that said, the easiest fitment and the easiest wire-tidying job among my electric motors has been with a full kit from the British Bafang/8FUN importers for the front wheel. By contrast, fitting the Bafang/8FUN central (bottom bracket) motor was a nightmare even with some of the electronic gubbins contained in the motor case itself -- until I got smart and instead of trying to wire tidily, I started thinking laterally and simply folded and refolded the surplus wiring until it would fit in one of those office computer spiral tidy cables, which conveniently come in neutral grey and black. I had the grey and that fitted well with my BRG bike. All of this par may sound a bit over the top, but it's the trickiest part to get right if you're getting on a bit and trying to limit bending over the bike. It isn't any more difficult really than fitting an n'lock (which nearly gave me a stroke the day before going in for heart surgery) or getting a Chainglider onto the chain and gearwheels the first time without ripping it apart or tying it into knots.

Here are some tips, discovered to be important by the questions people on the British pedelec forum asked me either on that forum or to my private mail:

1. Yes, you can fit any position electric motor yourself (as wheel hubs rear or front, as a centre motor), if you have a full kit, otherwise you risk an unfinished project. This is given on the assumption that you have removed and replaced a wheel and a bottom bracket before, and that you know that electricity flows in two or more wires which are different, usually not only in function but in colour.

2. I believe that in the UK there is a power limit on the size of motor you can use on the public roads. You must absolutely be satisfied that the low-watt motor you are forced to buy has high torque, or it will not be satisfactory. This isn't as difficult as it sounds because there is no standard by which pedelec motors are measured: the authorities take the word of Chinese(!) manufacturers, people who've been trained by their government on threat of existential penalties to tell them what they want to hear, a skill easily transferred onto customers! One reason I stick to Bafang is that they have a lot of experience with high torque motors from the years when the BPM (a hillclimber as in competitions) was their big seller, and the UK-legal Bafang motor I had on the front wheel first to give me some perspective on a new field is commonly referred to as "the little BPM".

3. A common complaint from the people who stop me on the roads or in the supermarket to ask if I want to sell them my bike -- which is clearly by its longevity (it's now thirteen years old) a riotously successful installation -- is that the electric bike they have, which stands idle in the garage, doesn't carry them further than the shopping. They've made the three most common newbie errors in electric bikes: They specified the battery too small, they expected the battery to do all the work, and they didn't look after the battery. I've never once run my battery for more than half its storage capacity, I charge the battery the minute I get home, even if I rode only a kilometre to the shops (I find that these days I'm better balanced on my bike than on my feet), and I specified the battery at a humongous 14.5kWh, at first glance far outside my requirement, but in practice hardheaded common sense and careful calculation from experience. My first battery, from the trial front wheel installation, is still running and good, probably fifteen years old, and would have been enough for normal rides on the new motor, delimited by how soon we run into a river at a quay somewhere, where there's no bridge to get to the other side, say 20km away, not very far for intermittent use of my first 8.5Ah battery. But you don't specify your battery by the shortest or the average ride you take, you specify it by the longest ride you take say once a year, in my case 60km, beyond which I use a car or the bus. That was when I used the motor very lightly. Now, unfit after the pandemic, I use it more and think 45 to 50km will be about right on my current usage of the motor, to leave it half full on my return home, where I recharge it immediately and let it trickle for an hour or so after the light turns green; that is the most vital piece of information I have to impart. The battery will be 40 percent to half the cost of your electric installation, and how fast it is consumed is up to you, so take care in your calculation and when you start using it to give it all the attention it deserves.

The motor itself is not a capital asset: it is a consumable and you should treat it as such, and be prepared eventually to buy a new one, probably on a longer cycle than you buy a new battery (I think my case, where I wore out a motor before a battery, is an outlier because I'm so careful with the battery, and I knew from the beginning that the sacrificial motor was a learning experience; in fact I expected it to fail much earlier than it did.) Specifically, steel gears instead of plastic will last longer, and you should in your first month or so, or your first summer, check that the motor doesn't get abnormally hot. I haven't fitted the steel gears because I value silence a great deal and I'm not particularly trying to make my motor last extraordinarily long.

Ask if you need to know something more.

in4

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Re: Sacrilege ?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2022, 11:54:59 AM »
I think the SJS website had a couple of modified eThorns for sale recently. Endorsement enough I wager?

Speaking with a middle aged farmer recently I’m quite accepting of the appeal of ebikes. The farmer said that with his knees the ebike took the sting out of exploring The Lakeland fells, particularly during the winter months when he had more opportunities to get out and ride.

I’d have one although seeing one for £12k recently made me almost break out into full Victor Meldrew mode.

PH

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Re: Sacrilege ?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2022, 12:12:10 PM »
Thorn do appear to offer conversions to some of their models using the Pendix system. Not cheap and the RST is not mentioned but maybe worth discussing the possible  options with them.

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/ebike/pendix-motor-kit-300w-long-reach-magnet/
Good shout.  I'd forgotten the Pendix, it's different to other mid drive motors so maybe it doesn't interfere with the EBB. i did consider one for my Airnimal folder as it doesn't interfere with the fold, I can't remember why I rejected it, I think the costs just got to the point where it made more sense to buy a dedicated E-bike. There were some compromises, particularly that a lot of the control is built into the battery pack, making an additional, or replacement, battery more expensive than with other systems.

PH

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Re: Sacrilege ?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2022, 01:02:17 PM »
2. I believe that in the UK there is a power limit on the size of motor you can use on the public roads.
The UK has retained the same regulations as the EU, as far as I'm aware there is no proposal to change this.  There's also some confusion about where you can use non conforming bikes, it isn't just roads you can't use one, it's any public Right of Way.

Bafang supply a range of motors, those labeled as EN15194, will be the same as those with the same label produced anywhere else in the World.  That stipulates 250w as the maximum continuous output,  the peak output is likely to be considerably higher, at least 300w, possibly as high as 400w, this is all within the regulations.  You can of course de-restrict any, though some manufacturers (Including Bafang) are working to make this harder. If you have an EN15194 and configure it to continually run at a higher power it'll have a fairly short life.  Configuring it to offer the same power without the speed cut-off is something different, this is basically what most EU Speed Pedelecs are. Sadly there's never been any EU classification for these, it's been left to nation states, in the UK they are classed as mopeds, so very few bother with them.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2022, 01:28:12 PM by PH »

energyman

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Re: Sacrilege ?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2022, 03:28:32 PM »
Thanks for your replies.
I'm looking at a SWYTCH system with a restricted speed motor in the front wheel.  That way I won't change the excellent dynamics of the RST too much.
I've ridden a Mercian with one of these and to be honest it was just like riding the normal bike until I arrived at a "slight incline" when one  felt the assistance kick in.


Andre Jute

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Re: Sacrilege ?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2022, 10:04:20 PM »
Thanks for your replies.
I'm looking at a SWYTCH system with a restricted speed motor in the front wheel.  That way I won't change the excellent dynamics of the RST too much.
I've ridden a Mercian with one of these and to be honest it was just like riding the normal bike until I arrived at a "slight incline" when one  felt the assistance kick in.

And you get tidy wiring and interchangeable batteries. Good call if it will otherwise suit your needs (handle your weight and shopping, effective rather than claimed battery range), and if you can somehow ascertain how durable the system is.

martinf

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Re: Sacrilege ?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2022, 09:31:30 AM »
I don't yet need to, but my current plan A for electric assistance should it be necessary sometime in the future is to fit a front hub motor to one of my Raven Tour frames. Perhaps with a different fork if I reckon the original isn't strong enough. And after using this relatively simple conversion for some time, probably get a purpose-designed electric bike later on.

Plan B is simply to make more use of my Brompton folders, combined with trains and buses and just cycle shorter distances.

Mike Ayling

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Re: Sacrilege ?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2022, 11:11:33 PM »
Thorn do appear to offer conversions to some of their models using the Pendix system. Not cheap and the RST is not mentioned but maybe worth discussing the possible  options with them.

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/ebike/pendix-motor-kit-300w-long-reach-magnet/

The Pendix system requires a square taper BB so if the RST has square taper a Pendix would work.
AFAIK most of the mid motor conversions require removal of the BB bearing and replacement with the e assist. Easier with a square taper than the external bearings on a Mercury for example.

PH

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Re: Sacrilege ?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2022, 11:48:45 PM »
The Pendix system requires a square taper BB so if the RST has square taper a Pendix would work.
AFAIK most of the mid motor conversions require removal of the BB bearing and replacement with the e assist. Easier with a square taper than the external bearings on a Mercury for example.
I only use ST BB's, including on my Mercury. 
The issue with most mid drives is they're a rigid fitting, once fitted it wouldn't be a simple job to alter the relationship between BB and frame, so the EBB becomes unusable.  The Pendix is different, it looks like it's all connected to the crank, as far as I can tell, adjusting the EBB also moves the motor with no extra work.   

Pavel

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Re: Sacrilege ?
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2022, 06:08:13 AM »
Just buy a motorcycle or if funds are low - a scooter - seems to be the most intelligent answer. Unless you are religious about bikes after all.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2022, 06:10:14 AM by Pavel »

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Sacrilege ?
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2022, 11:36:14 AM »
Just buy a motorcycle or if funds are low - a scooter - seems to be the most intelligent answer. Unless you are religious about bikes after all.

On my recent visit to New Jersey cycling along the Hudson Trail I was frequently passed by all manner of electric, err....... things.
Skateboard for sure. Scooter and bikes, definitely.

My impression was that USA is ahead of UK.
Along side my impression that helmets are worn less, State side.

Wonderful to see a different side of personal transport.


And one thing that was a ball with foot plates either side. Very unusual for me, and very fast.
Never drink and drive. You may hit a bump  and spill your drink