Sacrilege ?

[PH]

On my recent visit to New Jersey cycling along the Hudson Trail I was frequently passed by all manner of electric, err....... things.
Skateboard for sure. Scooter and bikes, definitely.

My impression was that USA is ahead of UK.

On a different road (Path?) certainly, but I'd say despite the speed they're behind Europe rather than ahead.
The European E-bike industry has worked hard to equate assisted bikes with traditional cycling.  This is far more obvious in those countries with more of a cycling tradition and usage.  The principal is a bike is a bike - it only works if you regulate output so they can mix without one disadvantaging the other.
The US approach has been to create a different class of cycle, without restricting it at a comparable level. In the short term that's a lot more fun for the rider, but is some circumstances it isn't appropriate, already E-bikes are banned on some US cycleways, that's not something we want in the UK.

E-scooters and other E-things are a different matter. They rocketed in popularity while most people were still considering them to be a short lived fad.  I think we are in a travel revolution and I don't know what the outcome will be, but I doubt it'll be bike shaped.

[Danneaux]

The US approach has been to create a different class of cycle, without restricting it at a comparable level. In the short term that's a lot more fun for the rider, but is some circumstances it isn't appropriate, already E-bikes are banned on some US cycleways, that's not something we want in the UK.

<nods, sadly> This is indeed what I see daily here on the feeder route to the bike paths that go past my house. e-Bikes with virtually unlimited power go scorching by at high speeds and once on the segregated bike paths, do the same. The problem is not the machines themselves -- they look like loads of fun in my eyes -- but the operators who show poor or little judgement and are often not in full control. A lot of these bikes have high-trail geometry and are heavy, so driven at speed around tight corners, they tend to run wide and several have nearly taken out myself and others in such circumstances.

I equate their presence with what I saw in the Netherlands in 2008, after it was made legal to run small motorbikes on the bike paths. While displacement was capped, virtually all were fitted with unmuffled, large expansion chamber exhausts and other mods that allowed higher speeds than the law anticipated. Most of the largely youthful operators figured there was little point in having power and speed without exercising it and so twisted their throttles fully at every opportunity. I spent 5 weeks based in Schiedam, a suburb of Rotterdam, but saw similar in The Hague, Amsterdam and Rotterdam and soon came to value the more rural paths where such mixed use was unknown and the old Dutch upright pushbike was the norm.

E-scooters and other E-things are a different matter. They rocketed in popularity while most people were still considering them to be a short lived fad.  I think we are in a travel revolution and I don't know what the outcome will be, but I doubt it'll be bike shaped.

These are HUGE in my area and growing moreso. The variety is remarkable and now we are seeing truly high-speed e-unicycles (EUC). One recently advertised has a top speed of 87mph/140kmh. Here is an example form last year, some faster now...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Aiccjwn-w
I pedaled down the River Road on-street path (major arterial at the end of my street) and was pretty satisfied to nearly pace the 35mph/56kmh traffic at 30mph/48kmh on my Fixie when I was passed by one of these EUCs that in turn passed all the cars at nearly twice speed. Kinda hard to watch for 'cos so far beyond the greater traffic mix in terms of speed and maneuverability.

Be safe out there.

Best, Dan.

[Mike Ayling]

Dan,
What fixed gear are you riding at 48km/h? I am impressed.

E scooters. In Victoria and some other Oz states their use is banned in all public areas, roads, shared paths, pavement/sidewalk/footpath. They may be purchased but can only be used on private property.
Of course the Police have plenty of other work to do so there is little enforcement.

There was an early Darwin Award candidate here in Melbourne a week or so ago when an e scooter rider hit a "traffic calming device" aka speed hump and went over the bars, hit his head and carked it.

The exception to the rule is that in the CBD/Downtown area you may hire a severely speed limited e scooter to get around there and they are quite popular. You do see a few outside the area abandoned, presumably because the battery had run down.

Back to the sacrilege topic because my Mercury does not have a square taper bottom bracket I could not fit a mid motor so I purchased a Merida Speeder 100 run out model for AUD 600 instead of RRP AUD 999  and took it to my local ebike conversion shop where I got a Bafang mid motor 250 watt and a 36V 15AH battery installed for a further AUD 2,000.
My first ride last week was 77km using mostly level 1 of 5 and there was still about 30% charge remaining in the battery.

[Danneaux]

What fixed gear are you riding at 48km/h? I am impressed.

I was too, when I looked down at my speedometer and the computer logged it as my maximum speed! It is a 38 x 16combo for a 64in gear, so my legs were a-spinning at 160-161RPM. I didn't hold it for more than a couple blocks before returning to my usual and a speed of 36kmh.

I usually prefer a cadence of 110-120, so this was pushing it for me. My hummingbird cadence makes up for my generally low gearing. As an aside, my Fixie is based on a 52 year-old road bike. Still going strong after "rescuing" it for $20. It had sat out in the winter snows of Central Oregon for two years while it failed to sell at successive garage sales. The original owner finally just wanted it "gone" for a minimal price and I was happy to oblige.

I really must stress I have nothing against e-Bikes, only against some operators I've encountered who rode them at speeds too high to be safe for conditions. I've the same complaint about car drivers who speed recklessly and endanger others. It only takes a few bad apples to create an unfortunate impression and regulation. I saw the first official "speed limit" sign has appeared on my local bike path this morning -- 12mph or 19kmh. The vast majority of the e-Bikes I see here are operated safely and well and provide enjoyment and much-needed mobility.

Best, Dan.

[energyman]

It's fitted and it keeps me cycling.
QED

[JohnR]

It's fitted and it keeps me cycling.
QED

I'll be interested to know what range you get under different conditions. My time will come (but not, I hope, for several more years) and I hope that by then the likes of Swytch will have added regenerative braking.

[energyman]

So far I've had 30 miles on flat Fenland roads & farm paths on a warm-ish day  That was using the lowest assistance setting and averaging a gentle 10 mph.  However on a cold day with a few what we call hills in Lincolnshire it dropped to 18 miles before the battery gave up.  Mind you the designed battery capacity is for commuting rather than touring or days out.  Obviously the range can be extended if you only switch it on when you feel the need or control the motor with a thumb throttle.
On the regenerative braking, various discussions on this.  The output of a front hub "dynamo" is about 3 watts and you don't really notice the drag when it's on but if you wanted more I guess you might end up going over the handlebars when it kicked in.  It would need software control to gently kick in.
Back emf rules ok as our lecturer would say or have things change in the last 50 years !

[JohnR]

On the regenerative braking, various discussions on this.  The output of a front hub "dynamo" is about 3 watts and you don't really notice the drag when it's on but if you wanted more I guess you might end up going over the handlebars when it kicked in.  It would need software control to gently kick in.

Thanks for the range feedback. That's worse than I had expected.

I would be using the motor for regeneration as is done on hybrid cars where pushing the brake pedal switches the power system to regeneration (with the mechanical brakes used for stopping or for extra braking power). I would fit sensors on the bike brake levers to do the same thing on a e-bike - pull the brakes a bit for regeneration, pull harder for the mechanical brakes. I recently came across an e-bike where regeneration was triggered by pedalling backwards, so it can be done.

[Andre Jute]

It's fitted and it keeps me cycling.
QED

Hallelujah!

To me that's the whole point of the e-bike.

[il padrone]

I would be using the motor for regeneration as is done on hybrid cars where pushing the brake pedal switches the power system to regeneration (with the mechanical brakes used for stopping or for extra braking power).

Bicycles simply do not have the weight and momentum (embodied energy) that a motor car has. The benefits of such braking systems would be marginal; you could try to run braking through some generator but the increase to battery charge level is going to be truly minimal. I do not know the data on it, but you can be sure - if it was feasible and effective, it would have been done already.

https://youtu.be/k4Oe4hv4QpI

[JohnR]

Thanks for the link with interesting comments below it. The benefit of regenerative braking will depend on the usage pattern. It will be negligible if cruising on flat or gently undulating terrain but will be significant in conditions where the brakes are used a lot and without regenerative braking the range using the battery will be substantially diminished . I think this can be grouped into two categories: Urban cycling with lots of stop - start; and hilly conditions where there's lot of effort getting up the hills followed by cautious descent down the other side.

The majority of e-bike purchasers are only doing relatively short trips well within the bikes range. I anticipate, however, the demand for regenerative braking will increase as more purchasers find disappointing range for their usage pattern.

[PH]

It's fitted and it keeps me cycling.
QED

Congrats, is that the Swytch kit? I don't know anything about them other than the ads, they look to have pretty small batteries, like the Brompton kit, do you know the capacity?

Re regen braking for E-bikes, at current levels of technology its a non starter.  It's borderline even on many E-motorbikes, where you don't have the disadvantage of pedaling against the motor, many manufacturers consider that an increase in battery size gives better additional range for the same weight with less complexity and at a lower cost.
I don't know about others, but I spend less time braking when riding a bike than when driving a car, though with the car a lot of that will be engine braking, there's not much genuine freewheeling when driving. I freewheel quite a lot on a bike, without braking, I don't want a charging system slowing that. Maybe someone could work out how much regen you get for a micron of brake pad? My E-bike has done a touch under 10,000 km of urban deliveries,  last week I changed the pads for the fist time, the resin type which are supposed to be fast wearing, the front was a little overdue, the rear had some life left.  Regen braking in an EV is a different matter, absolutely brilliant, I'm in a car club and one of the cars I use is a BMW I3, with a bit of care you can do 100's of urban miles without touching the brake.

[il padrone]

The benefit of regenerative braking will depend on the usage pattern. It will be negligible if cruising on flat or gently undulating terrain but will be significant in conditions where the brakes are used a lot and without regenerative braking the range using the battery will be substantially diminished .

I think you may have missed the point about the lack of embodied energy, even in hilly terrain on descents, and that regen-braking uses direct-drive, not a freewheel. You WILL be constantly trying to pedal against the friction of the motor. As for use in short/long range, a good friend of mine uses his e-bike for long-distance touring (carrying quite a major load). He gets 2 days riding on tours out of the battery between charges, on 60-80km days. He rides with the power-assist level set to 0 most of the time, and only dials it up to about 3-4 on the 0-9 scale when he gets to steep or long hills. On a true pedelec with auto-throttle and assist only when pedalling.

[steve216c]

I was curious on finding out more in this regenerative braking discussion. I found this article https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/do-electric-bikes-charge-when-you-pedal/ which explained to me why, although possible, is not terribly efficient on bicycles.

Of course rapidly changing technology and innovation might eventually make this viable, but for now the minor gain from energy recovery vs added weight, cost and minimal range improvement make this hard to justify at this point in time. But in 5-10 years, who knows?

[JohnR]

I was curious on finding out more in this regenerative braking discussion. I found this article https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/do-electric-bikes-charge-when-you-pedal/ which explained to me why, although possible, is not terribly efficient on bicycles.

That's a good article and includes what I'm thinking about "For example, if an e-bike can help power you up a steep gradient, can it recapture some of that energy on the corresponding descent?" and the comments include "It had a regenerative brake system for recharging the battery, it would engage when you feathered the rear brake lever to trigger it, and was most useful going down steeper hills. It was nice as I had a longer hilly commute around Vancouver BC, and I could keep the battery charged enough for my final hill climb to get home."  That's the situation I'm thinking about: Help going up the hills and ability to recapture some of that energy when it's necessary to go down the hills cautiously (ie using the brakes). If braking isn't needed on the descent then there would be no regeneration.

A suitable motor connected to suitable electronics can become a generator. My hybrid car is described as having two motors but in reality it has two motor/generators with the electronics, guided by the use of the accelerator and brake pedals, deciding which way the power flows and how much.