Author Topic: Longer lasting chain ?  (Read 12303 times)

swayzak

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Longer lasting chain ?
« on: May 19, 2022, 09:17:51 PM »
As I do quite a few miles on my Thorn Sterling (Rohloff) bike, the chain needs changing at least once a year. I always replace with same chain the bike originally came with (ordered from SJS).

I know this isn't that frequent, but out of interest are there chains which wear out / stretch slower than others ?

Thanks
« Last Edit: May 21, 2022, 11:49:34 AM by swayzak »

Danneaux

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Re: Longer lasting chain ?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2022, 09:19:55 PM »
This may be what you are looking for (in terms of maker's claims)...
https://www.kmcchain.eu/10000km
...but Forum members are already exceeding these limits using other products, so....  ???

Best,

Dan.

martinf

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Re: Longer lasting chain ?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2022, 11:41:30 PM »
This may be what you are looking for (in terms of maker's claims)...
https://www.kmcchain.eu/10000km

I had a look at the E101 EPT.

The choice of the recommended KMC chainrings/sprockets is a bit limited, but I think the idea of a well-made wider chain lasting longer is sound.

In my case, I run 1/8" chains on 3 of the family bikes :

- a Brompton, which doesn't do a huge mileage now that I am retired and no longer do train-assisted commuting. If I was still using it intensively, an E101 EPT would make sense for this bike, as on a Brompton the chain is close to the ground and picks up more dirt and water than on a full-size bike. When I used Bromptons professionally on coastal survey contracts I replaced (ordinary) 1/8" chains at less than 2000 kms, so every 3 to 4 weeks.

- my old utility bike. I use this quite a lot, but as it has a Chainglider my existing stock of "ordinary" 1/8" chains should last for a very long time, probably longer than me.

- my wife's utility bike. This isn't used very much, and this bike also has a Chainglider, so I doubt that I will ever need to lubricate the chain, let alone replace it.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The 9 other family bikes all use 3/32" chain. In this width the 3/32" KMC E1 EPT (guaranteed for 3,500 kms) is supposed to be longer lasting than standard chains, it is pretty much the same model as the KMC X1 that SJS cycles used to recommend for Rohloff-equipped bikes.

Six of these nine bikes have Chaingliders, so in my opinion not worth the effort to change chainrings, cranks and sprockets to use the KMC E101 EPT, although I do have the 3/32" KMC E1 EPT on some of them.

Two of the bikes are Bromptons, but these don't do huge mileages.

The remaining bike is an old mountain bike used as a visitor bike. As it has vertical dropouts and no bottom-bracket eccentric I can't fit a Chainglider. Rather than try and convert it to use the KMC E101 EPT and associated chainring and sprocket, my solution will be to change the frame - For this purpose I have just bought another old second-hand mountain bike with hook-shaped dropouts (so Chainglider compatible) and a decent-quality frame (Reynolds tubing) for 15€. 

 

PH

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Re: Longer lasting chain ?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2022, 12:47:23 AM »
We've been doing this one for at least fifteen years ;)
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=1040.0

I don't think I've anything to add to my experiences detailed there, the latest last year.  My three EP1 chains are still going fine, the most used one now on around 12,000 km.

swayzak

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Re: Longer lasting chain ?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2022, 03:36:23 PM »
Thanks all - some of the discussion gets quite technical !

So I have checked my old Thorne invoice, and I currently have fitted:

KMC Z610HX 1/2 Inch x 3/32 Inch Silver Chain for Single and 3 Speeds

Thorn 110mm 5arm Reversible SINGLE ring - Black 42T

Unfortunately I can't see the front chain ring listed (both front & rear were replaced once - both identical replacements from SJS, except slightly different tooth count so lowest gear slightly more easy to pedal / highest gest slightly harder to pedal than before).

I purchased the Sterling in 2010.

Should I keep the same front & rear rings and just upgrade the chain ? Or swap all 3 components (as per https://www.kmcchain.eu/10000km ) to optimise performance/longevity ?

JohnR

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Re: Longer lasting chain ?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2022, 05:27:43 PM »
Should I keep the same front & rear rings and just upgrade the chain ? Or swap all 3 components (as per https://www.kmcchain.eu/10000km ) to optimise performance/longevity ?
See this discussion about worn teeth http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14287.0.

As for changing the chain every year, it may be worthwhile seeing how long the cheapest KMC chains last until either the "stretch" is measurable or the cost/hassle of relubricating is more than the cost of a new chain. The KMC B1 and Z1 are both very affordable and available in 1/8" and 3/32" widths while the KMC X8 (also about 3/32" wide) is only slightly more expensive, particularly if bought as a piece cut from a rolland provided with separate missing links.

mickeg

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Re: Longer lasting chain ?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2022, 08:34:07 PM »
I have been using the cheapest KMC chains for a LONG time, which recently has been the Z series.  Then read somewhere that the X series of KMC are supposed to last longer.  I have bought some X series but have not yet used one.

The KMC quick links are not interchangeable between the Z and X, but the X might work on a Z.  But the Z quick link won't work on an X.

I recommend against changing chains until they need it.  The Pedros and similar Park Tools chain checkers are the most accurate chain checkers.  The video is applicable to the Pedros or Park checkers.  In the video, where he says presure is maintained at about 1:00 into the video, that is the key to their accuracy.
https://www.velonews.com/gear/measuring-chain-wear-accurately/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOaFF_4CqJg

I have the Pedros one.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 08:35:57 PM by mickeg »

swayzak

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Re: Longer lasting chain ?
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2022, 09:31:58 PM »
Thanks

I generally change my chain when the chain becomes stretched & loose and the EBB is at its furthest distance from the rear wheel hub.

I haven't removed a link to shorten the chain at this point (I don't have the tool or knowledge to do this).

Is this the wrong thing to do ?

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Longer lasting chain ?
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2022, 10:15:05 PM »
Was there a recent thread regarding folks providing data of chain life?
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Andre Jute

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Re: Longer lasting chain ?
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2022, 07:59:35 AM »
I have been using the cheapest KMC chains for a LONG time, which recently has been the Z series.  Then read somewhere that the X series of KMC are supposed to last longer.


Very likely on this forum. The KMC Z series are for single speed transmissions: fixies, hub gearboxes, suchlike; they do not have the flexibility that derailleurs demand. The KMC X series are for derailleur transmission; they are designed for more flexibility. In theory, the Z series, being cheaper to make, should be cheaper at the retailer; in practice unit costs are also influenced by length of production runs, and the last time I bought chains, the KMC X8-xx was still cheaper at Chainreaction Cycles in Belfast (my longtime component pusher because they offer free delivery to the Republic).

As to why the KMC X lasts longer, my guess is that the extra built-in flexibility is worth something, even on a properly set-up Rohloff hub gearbox, when "properly" is defined as "a chainline with a deviation from parallel of no greater than 1mm".

I've used the top of both the Z and the X range as a chain running parallel to within manual measurement deviation (in theory nil, in practice no more than 0.5mm), and the Z works fine and in my blueprint installation the difference from the X is not great; I have much greater experience of the X, which I fit and have spares of, and make gifts of to pedalpals still in the neanderthal age before hub gearboxes, who never knew there were chains that good and long-lasting until I gave them one of mine. That makes the key consideration price on the day you buy the chain, and CRC has periodic sales in which the X routinely leaves the Z for dead on price, in which I stock up.

On your installation, George, where I seem to remember you have a 5mm-off-parallel chainline, it appears to me at least possible that your mileage gain from the KMC Z to the KMC X (for newbies: given that within those ranges you swap quality for like quality, the higher numbers being the higher qualities, and the -xx indicates plating protection, the higher the number the better as in KMC X8-99*) could be much greater than the gain I found with a practically perfect installation operated only in favorable conditions.

*More, where in earlier years on this forum, you will find references to a KMC Z8, that's an error. At the time I first made the comparison, the Z7 was the top of the Z range while the X8 had an extra feature and was thus the top of the X8 range, and the Z7 was often called the Z8 by analogy but incorrectly. In any event, we compared them as like to like because they were what was available at the top of those ranges. You can't go wrong buying the KMC X8 whereas if your chainline is not perfect the Z7 (or Z8 if today there is one) may in fact be inferior to the X8. I personally find the KMC X8 the perfect balance between price and longevity on any Rohloff installation, and of course essential on most Rohloff conversions on derailleur frames where the necessary jockey wheel is an invention of the devil.

***
I've said this before, so I'll just mention it for the OP. The chain is the cheapest part of the transmission and should be replaced before it endangers more expensive components in the drivetrain. I replace mine at about 0.5 wear on the gauge, eyeballed because clearly the common 0.75 gauge won't fully engage with the chain at any lesser wear. Alternatively, if you're a high-miler who intends wearing the chain, sprocket and chainring at the same rate because that is one easily understood path to lowest replacement cost per year, alternate say three chains. Martin and others have several times provided instructions you can search for. Reading passim in these threads, you will have discovered that many of us find the Hebie Chainglider a useful substitute for chain maintenance without cutting into impressive chain mileages!


steve216c

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Re: Longer lasting chain ?
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2022, 08:53:03 AM »
As I do quite a few miles on my Thorne Sterling (Rohloff) bike, the chain needs changing at least once a year. I always replace with same chain the bike originally came with (ordered from SJS).

I know this isn't that frequent, but out of interest are there chains which wear out / stretch slower than others ?

Thanks

How do you decide your chain needs changing each year. Is it just by time on bike, by mileage, by measuring stretch or just by feel?

Ultimately, most wear of chain will come from use and chain care (or lack of). The total weight of rider/bike will play its role. A lighter rider will put less stress on chain than a heavier rider travelling at same speed over same terrain suggesting that all other things being equal that a lighter rider ought to get more mileage from a chain.

I just got 14,000km out of a Connex 808 on my Rohloff. Compared to a derailleur bike 2-3 times more than I ever got on one of my Shimano bikes.
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JohnR

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Re: Longer lasting chain ?
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2022, 09:00:28 AM »
The range of KMC chains is bewildering https://www.kmcchain.eu/chain-bike and I've yet to find a chart or guide which compares the chains for different uses. Some of the technologies are explained at https://www.kmcchain.eu/KMC_Technology. 5 - 8 speed chains are compatible with normal (ie not wide) chainrings and sprockets and many of these have pin lengths of 7.3 or 7.7mm which seem to be the easily available sizes of the KMC missing links. I've yet to figure out if the difference between 7.3mm and 7.7mm width is due to thicker sides or wider middles. I might be wrong but some of the single speed products seem to be aimed at the BMX and similar markets.

As already commented, a Chainglider will pay for itself by reducing chain wear and maintenance. I failed to record which type of chain I put in a Chainglider last year and clocked up 6k miles on my Mercury with minimal maintenance.

mickeg

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Re: Longer lasting chain ?
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2022, 11:01:28 AM »
Thanks

I generally change my chain when the chain becomes stretched & loose and the EBB is at its furthest distance from the rear wheel hub.

I haven't removed a link to shorten the chain at this point (I don't have the tool or knowledge to do this).

Is this the wrong thing to do ?

I think most of us try to replace chains when they have reached a certain amount of elongation.  That is more important on a derailleur bike, the sprockets wear faster and cassettes can get expensive. 

When you run your chain until you are unable to get it tighter, you do not know if you are waiting too long in which case your sprocket and chainring gets more wear or if you are changing chains too early, which costs more.

But a single speed or a IGH bike that only has one sprocket and one chainring, the chainline is better and you can run them with more elongation.  I used to change my chains at 0.75 percent elongation (or some say stretch), but I have changed that recently to 1 percent on my Rohloff bike.  But I still change them at 0.75 percent on my derailleur bikes.


PH

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Re: Longer lasting chain ?
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2022, 11:18:16 AM »
I've said this before, so I'll just mention it for the OP. The chain is the cheapest part of the transmission and should be replaced before it endangers more expensive components in the drivetrain.
This isn't a given!
Rohloff Sprocket £20, Thorn Chainring £45, X8 chain £15?.
Sprocket and chainring are of course reversible and the chainring is likely to last two sprockets. So, half a sprocket and quarter of a chainring is £22.
People can make their own mind up if throwing away £15 chains to prolong the life of £22 of components makes sense to them, it doesn't to me.
Lots of variables in there - Riding environment, chain protection and cleaning, lubrication, riding style... In the right circumstances you could make a chainring and sprocket last forever, that might still have cost more in chains than riding them to destruction. 
One thing that shouldn't be confused is the need to change a chain running on a sprocket isn't the same as the need to do so on a cassette -  As Steve's recent example shows, worn components still work well together as long as they're worn to the same extent. 

EDIT - Just to add as I'm feeling a bit outnumbered here!  The advice in Thorn's Living with a Rohloff booklet is to run and change them all together, so the idea of doing so isn't so unusual.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2022, 11:28:49 AM by PH »

PH

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Re: Longer lasting chain ?
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2022, 11:24:45 AM »
That is more important on a derailleur bike, the sprockets wear faster and cassettes can get expensive. 
The issue with a cassette isn't so much that they wear faster but that the individual sprockets wear at different rates, even on a well worn cassette there's usually one or two sprockets that the worn chain will still sit happily on.  Otherwise I agree with you, sacrificing chains for the more expensive cassette makes much more sense, though when I ran a Camping bike I had a cassette with individual sprockets (Miche?) and could sometimes get away with replacing two or three.