Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Rohloff Internal Hub Gears => Topic started by: swayzak on May 19, 2022, 09:17:51 pm
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As I do quite a few miles on my Thorn Sterling (Rohloff) bike, the chain needs changing at least once a year. I always replace with same chain the bike originally came with (ordered from SJS).
I know this isn't that frequent, but out of interest are there chains which wear out / stretch slower than others ?
Thanks
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This may be what you are looking for (in terms of maker's claims)...
https://www.kmcchain.eu/10000km
...but Forum members are already exceeding these limits using other products, so.... ???
Best,
Dan.
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This may be what you are looking for (in terms of maker's claims)...
https://www.kmcchain.eu/10000km
I had a look at the E101 EPT.
The choice of the recommended KMC chainrings/sprockets is a bit limited, but I think the idea of a well-made wider chain lasting longer is sound.
In my case, I run 1/8" chains on 3 of the family bikes :
- a Brompton, which doesn't do a huge mileage now that I am retired and no longer do train-assisted commuting. If I was still using it intensively, an E101 EPT would make sense for this bike, as on a Brompton the chain is close to the ground and picks up more dirt and water than on a full-size bike. When I used Bromptons professionally on coastal survey contracts I replaced (ordinary) 1/8" chains at less than 2000 kms, so every 3 to 4 weeks.
- my old utility bike. I use this quite a lot, but as it has a Chainglider my existing stock of "ordinary" 1/8" chains should last for a very long time, probably longer than me.
- my wife's utility bike. This isn't used very much, and this bike also has a Chainglider, so I doubt that I will ever need to lubricate the chain, let alone replace it.
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The 9 other family bikes all use 3/32" chain. In this width the 3/32" KMC E1 EPT (guaranteed for 3,500 kms) is supposed to be longer lasting than standard chains, it is pretty much the same model as the KMC X1 that SJS cycles used to recommend for Rohloff-equipped bikes.
Six of these nine bikes have Chaingliders, so in my opinion not worth the effort to change chainrings, cranks and sprockets to use the KMC E101 EPT, although I do have the 3/32" KMC E1 EPT on some of them.
Two of the bikes are Bromptons, but these don't do huge mileages.
The remaining bike is an old mountain bike used as a visitor bike. As it has vertical dropouts and no bottom-bracket eccentric I can't fit a Chainglider. Rather than try and convert it to use the KMC E101 EPT and associated chainring and sprocket, my solution will be to change the frame - For this purpose I have just bought another old second-hand mountain bike with hook-shaped dropouts (so Chainglider compatible) and a decent-quality frame (Reynolds tubing) for 15€.
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We've been doing this one for at least fifteen years ;)
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=1040.0
I don't think I've anything to add to my experiences detailed there, the latest last year. My three EP1 chains are still going fine, the most used one now on around 12,000 km.
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Thanks all - some of the discussion gets quite technical !
So I have checked my old Thorne invoice, and I currently have fitted:
KMC Z610HX 1/2 Inch x 3/32 Inch Silver Chain for Single and 3 Speeds
Thorn 110mm 5arm Reversible SINGLE ring - Black 42T
Unfortunately I can't see the front chain ring listed (both front & rear were replaced once - both identical replacements from SJS, except slightly different tooth count so lowest gear slightly more easy to pedal / highest gest slightly harder to pedal than before).
I purchased the Sterling in 2010.
Should I keep the same front & rear rings and just upgrade the chain ? Or swap all 3 components (as per https://www.kmcchain.eu/10000km ) to optimise performance/longevity ?
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Should I keep the same front & rear rings and just upgrade the chain ? Or swap all 3 components (as per https://www.kmcchain.eu/10000km ) to optimise performance/longevity ?
See this discussion about worn teeth http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14287.0.
As for changing the chain every year, it may be worthwhile seeing how long the cheapest KMC chains last until either the "stretch" is measurable or the cost/hassle of relubricating is more than the cost of a new chain. The KMC B1 and Z1 are both very affordable and available in 1/8" and 3/32" widths while the KMC X8 (also about 3/32" wide) is only slightly more expensive, particularly if bought as a piece cut from a rolland provided with separate missing links.
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I have been using the cheapest KMC chains for a LONG time, which recently has been the Z series. Then read somewhere that the X series of KMC are supposed to last longer. I have bought some X series but have not yet used one.
The KMC quick links are not interchangeable between the Z and X, but the X might work on a Z. But the Z quick link won't work on an X.
I recommend against changing chains until they need it. The Pedros and similar Park Tools chain checkers are the most accurate chain checkers. The video is applicable to the Pedros or Park checkers. In the video, where he says presure is maintained at about 1:00 into the video, that is the key to their accuracy.
https://www.velonews.com/gear/measuring-chain-wear-accurately/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOaFF_4CqJg
I have the Pedros one.
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Thanks
I generally change my chain when the chain becomes stretched & loose and the EBB is at its furthest distance from the rear wheel hub.
I haven't removed a link to shorten the chain at this point (I don't have the tool or knowledge to do this).
Is this the wrong thing to do ?
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Was there a recent thread regarding folks providing data of chain life?
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I have been using the cheapest KMC chains for a LONG time, which recently has been the Z series. Then read somewhere that the X series of KMC are supposed to last longer.
Very likely on this forum. The KMC Z series are for single speed transmissions: fixies, hub gearboxes, suchlike; they do not have the flexibility that derailleurs demand. The KMC X series are for derailleur transmission; they are designed for more flexibility. In theory, the Z series, being cheaper to make, should be cheaper at the retailer; in practice unit costs are also influenced by length of production runs, and the last time I bought chains, the KMC X8-xx was still cheaper at Chainreaction Cycles in Belfast (my longtime component pusher because they offer free delivery to the Republic).
As to why the KMC X lasts longer, my guess is that the extra built-in flexibility is worth something, even on a properly set-up Rohloff hub gearbox, when "properly" is defined as "a chainline with a deviation from parallel of no greater than 1mm".
I've used the top of both the Z and the X range as a chain running parallel to within manual measurement deviation (in theory nil, in practice no more than 0.5mm), and the Z works fine and in my blueprint installation the difference from the X is not great; I have much greater experience of the X, which I fit and have spares of, and make gifts of to pedalpals still in the neanderthal age before hub gearboxes, who never knew there were chains that good and long-lasting until I gave them one of mine. That makes the key consideration price on the day you buy the chain, and CRC has periodic sales in which the X routinely leaves the Z for dead on price, in which I stock up.
On your installation, George, where I seem to remember you have a 5mm-off-parallel chainline, it appears to me at least possible that your mileage gain from the KMC Z to the KMC X (for newbies: given that within those ranges you swap quality for like quality, the higher numbers being the higher qualities, and the -xx indicates plating protection, the higher the number the better as in KMC X8-99*) could be much greater than the gain I found with a practically perfect installation operated only in favorable conditions.
*More, where in earlier years on this forum, you will find references to a KMC Z8, that's an error. At the time I first made the comparison, the Z7 was the top of the Z range while the X8 had an extra feature and was thus the top of the X8 range, and the Z7 was often called the Z8 by analogy but incorrectly. In any event, we compared them as like to like because they were what was available at the top of those ranges. You can't go wrong buying the KMC X8 whereas if your chainline is not perfect the Z7 (or Z8 if today there is one) may in fact be inferior to the X8. I personally find the KMC X8 the perfect balance between price and longevity on any Rohloff installation, and of course essential on most Rohloff conversions on derailleur frames where the necessary jockey wheel is an invention of the devil.
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I've said this before, so I'll just mention it for the OP. The chain is the cheapest part of the transmission and should be replaced before it endangers more expensive components in the drivetrain. I replace mine at about 0.5 wear on the gauge, eyeballed because clearly the common 0.75 gauge won't fully engage with the chain at any lesser wear. Alternatively, if you're a high-miler who intends wearing the chain, sprocket and chainring at the same rate because that is one easily understood path to lowest replacement cost per year, alternate say three chains. Martin and others have several times provided instructions you can search for. Reading passim in these threads, you will have discovered that many of us find the Hebie Chainglider a useful substitute for chain maintenance without cutting into impressive chain mileages!
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As I do quite a few miles on my Thorne Sterling (Rohloff) bike, the chain needs changing at least once a year. I always replace with same chain the bike originally came with (ordered from SJS).
I know this isn't that frequent, but out of interest are there chains which wear out / stretch slower than others ?
Thanks
How do you decide your chain needs changing each year. Is it just by time on bike, by mileage, by measuring stretch or just by feel?
Ultimately, most wear of chain will come from use and chain care (or lack of). The total weight of rider/bike will play its role. A lighter rider will put less stress on chain than a heavier rider travelling at same speed over same terrain suggesting that all other things being equal that a lighter rider ought to get more mileage from a chain.
I just got 14,000km out of a Connex 808 on my Rohloff. Compared to a derailleur bike 2-3 times more than I ever got on one of my Shimano bikes.
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The range of KMC chains is bewildering https://www.kmcchain.eu/chain-bike and I've yet to find a chart or guide which compares the chains for different uses. Some of the technologies are explained at https://www.kmcchain.eu/KMC_Technology. 5 - 8 speed chains are compatible with normal (ie not wide) chainrings and sprockets and many of these have pin lengths of 7.3 or 7.7mm which seem to be the easily available sizes of the KMC missing links. I've yet to figure out if the difference between 7.3mm and 7.7mm width is due to thicker sides or wider middles. I might be wrong but some of the single speed products seem to be aimed at the BMX and similar markets.
As already commented, a Chainglider will pay for itself by reducing chain wear and maintenance. I failed to record which type of chain I put in a Chainglider last year and clocked up 6k miles on my Mercury with minimal maintenance.
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Thanks
I generally change my chain when the chain becomes stretched & loose and the EBB is at its furthest distance from the rear wheel hub.
I haven't removed a link to shorten the chain at this point (I don't have the tool or knowledge to do this).
Is this the wrong thing to do ?
I think most of us try to replace chains when they have reached a certain amount of elongation. That is more important on a derailleur bike, the sprockets wear faster and cassettes can get expensive.
When you run your chain until you are unable to get it tighter, you do not know if you are waiting too long in which case your sprocket and chainring gets more wear or if you are changing chains too early, which costs more.
But a single speed or a IGH bike that only has one sprocket and one chainring, the chainline is better and you can run them with more elongation. I used to change my chains at 0.75 percent elongation (or some say stretch), but I have changed that recently to 1 percent on my Rohloff bike. But I still change them at 0.75 percent on my derailleur bikes.
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I've said this before, so I'll just mention it for the OP. The chain is the cheapest part of the transmission and should be replaced before it endangers more expensive components in the drivetrain.
This isn't a given!
Rohloff Sprocket £20, Thorn Chainring £45, X8 chain £15?.
Sprocket and chainring are of course reversible and the chainring is likely to last two sprockets. So, half a sprocket and quarter of a chainring is £22.
People can make their own mind up if throwing away £15 chains to prolong the life of £22 of components makes sense to them, it doesn't to me.
Lots of variables in there - Riding environment, chain protection and cleaning, lubrication, riding style... In the right circumstances you could make a chainring and sprocket last forever, that might still have cost more in chains than riding them to destruction.
One thing that shouldn't be confused is the need to change a chain running on a sprocket isn't the same as the need to do so on a cassette - As Steve's recent example shows, worn components still work well together as long as they're worn to the same extent.
EDIT - Just to add as I'm feeling a bit outnumbered here! The advice in Thorn's Living with a Rohloff booklet is to run and change them all together, so the idea of doing so isn't so unusual.
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That is more important on a derailleur bike, the sprockets wear faster and cassettes can get expensive.
The issue with a cassette isn't so much that they wear faster but that the individual sprockets wear at different rates, even on a well worn cassette there's usually one or two sprockets that the worn chain will still sit happily on. Otherwise I agree with you, sacrificing chains for the more expensive cassette makes much more sense, though when I ran a Camping bike I had a cassette with individual sprockets (Miche?) and could sometimes get away with replacing two or three.
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As I do quite a few miles on my Thorne Sterling (Rohloff) bik
... and not wanting to seem too much a pedant, there is no "e"
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As I do quite a few miles on my Thorne Sterling (Rohloff) bike, the chain needs changing at least once a year. I always replace with same chain the bike originally came with (ordered from SJS).
I know this isn't that frequent, but out of interest are there chains which wear out / stretch slower than others ?
Thanks
How do you decide your chain needs changing each year. Is it just by time on bike, by mileage, by measuring stretch or just by feel?
Ultimately, most wear of chain will come from use and chain care (or lack of). The total weight of rider/bike will play its role. A lighter rider will put less stress on chain than a heavier rider travelling at same speed over same terrain suggesting that all other things being equal that a lighter rider ought to get more mileage from a chain.
I just got 14,000km out of a Connex 808 on my Rohloff. Compared to a derailleur bike 2-3 times more than I ever got on one of my Shimano bikes.
I change when the chain is obviously stretched (visibly hanging loose) and I can't tighten it anymore by moving EBB.
The chain guard won't stop the chain stretching like this presumably.
Should one always be able to remove a link once the chain has reached this stage, to prolong the life of the chain ?
Or will the stretched links be potentially damaging the rest of the drive train and so the chain best be changed ?
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Or will the stretched links be potentially damaging the rest of the drive train and so the chain best be changed ?
Without getting bogged down in semantics - there's a difference between wear and damage, you wouldn't call a well worn pair of shoes damaged.
The pins in the chain are the fastest wearing part of the drivetrain, from the day it's all new they're wearing away and this in turn will wear the other components to match.
Your options are:
Change the chain before the wear on the sprocket is such that a new chain won't sit properly on it.
Or
Like your favorite shoes, keep them as a pair till they're properly worn out.
It is a choice, I've said which I'd choose, but I'm not saying anyone choosing the other is wrong. What I would say is that somewhere between the two, letting a sprocket wear so that a new chain won't work, but not getting the full wear possible from it, is the worst of both.
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This isn't a given!
Rohloff Sprocket £20, Thorn Chainring £45, X8 chain £15?.
Sprocket and chainring are of course reversible and the chainring is likely to last two sprockets. So, half a sprocket and quarter of a chainring is £22.
That's a generous price for the X8 - cheaper if taken from a bulk roll, but still expensive compared to a Z1 narrow (currently £5.27 @ Wiggle for the brown version while the EPT version is just under £15).
The chain guard won't stop the chain stretching like this presumably.
Should one always be able to remove a link once the chain has reached this stage, to prolong the life of the chain ?
Or will the stretched links be potentially damaging the rest of the drive train and so the chain best be changed ?
You most probably aren't physically stretching the chain. If you are, then one of the heavier duty e-bike chains would suit your needs better.
The normal cause of chain "stretch" is wear due to dirt getting inside. This wear increases the clearance on all the joints which results in the chain getting longer when it is under tension.
A full chainguard such as the Hebie Chainglider prevents most of the dirt from getting inside and thus considerably reduces the rate of wear of the joints on the chain. You've got the Rohloff hub and an EBB but you may need to change the chainring to suit one of the Chainglider sizes and also maximum acceptable chainring width.
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Swayzak, apologies if someone has already told you. You do you NOT decide that your chain is worn by eyeballing the sag on it, and you do NOT run a chain on a Rohloff as tight as expected on a derailleur installation.
Or, to put it positively, the right way to decide your chain is worn is by measurement with a tool (cheap), and a Rohloff chain should be mounted with at least 10mm of slack, measured by pulling the middle of the upper run of the chain up or pressing the middle of the lower run of the chain down. Why? Because Herr Rohloff wants it like that. 10mm on each run, both pressed towards each other, is perfectly acceptable, in fact, you'd be surprised at how slack a chain on a hub gearbox can be and still not fall off.
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Swayzak, apologies if someone has already told you. You do you NOT decide that your chain is worn by eyeballing the sag on it, and you do NOT run a chain on a Rohloff as tight as expected on a derailleur installation.
Or, to put it positively, the right way to decide your chain is worn is by measurement with a tool (cheap), and a Rohloff chain should be mounted with at least 10mm of slack, measured by pulling the middle of the upper run of the chain up or pressing the middle of the lower run of the chain down. Why? Because Herr Rohloff wants it like that. 10mm on each run, both pressed towards each other, is perfectly acceptable, in fact, you'd be surprised at how slack a chain on a hub gearbox can be and still not fall off.
Thanks
I've run it to the point where the chain did start to come off a few times (and EBB was at "longest" position).
Would it be usual to take a link out at this point or best to change chain ?
I gather that you are far more likely to damage rest of drive train with chain too tight rather than too loose... ?
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Would it be usual to take a link out at this point or best to change chain ?
I gather that you are far more likely to damage rest of drive train with chain too tight rather than too loose... ?
I'd just take a link out, re-join with a quick link.
Also correct about not running the chain too tight, it just puts everything under unnecessary strain.
The EBB has a little over one full link of adjustment, if it's at one extreme removing a link will take it almost all the way back to the other.
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Would it be usual to take a link out at this point or best to change chain ?
I gather that you are far more likely to damage rest of drive train with chain too tight rather than too loose... ?
I'd just take a link out, re-join with a quick link.
Also correct about not running the chain too tight, it just puts everything under unnecessary strain.
The EBB has a little over one full link of adjustment, if it's at one extreme removing a link will take it almost all the way back to the other.
Thanks - that's really helpful.
And I assume you would normally only get one link's worth of shortening like this in the life of a chain ?
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I asked a similar question about chain shortening as I approached 10,000km on an elongated chain. I shortened it and ran just over 4000km more before renewing the chain and sprocket.
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14115.msg106228#msg106228 (http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14115.msg106228#msg106228)
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And I assume you would normally only get one link's worth of shortening like this in the life of a chain ?
I don't recall ever having removed links twice, but if it needed it and it looked like there was a good bit of life left I'd probably do so.
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I've run it to the point where the chain did start to come off a few times (and EBB was at "longest" position).
Would it be usual to take a link out at this point or best to change chain ?
If the chain is good, you take out a link and reset whatever chain length adjuster you have, EBB or sliding blocks in slots in the rear frame ends. On a well-designed frame like you're talking about the position of the adjuster(s) is not the final factor in the decision whether the chain needs replacing.
I gather that you are far more likely to damage rest of drive train with chain too tight rather than too loose... ?
Correct. I speculate that Herr Rohloff wants the chain slack rather than tight to protect the bearings of the axle, or possibly the loadings on gear interfaces. Whether it is in fact necessary, or is more German over-engineering of a class that has made Rohloff HGB longevity the envy of all other hub gearbox makers, is another story that you can think about when you have a firmer grip on the essentials, like when to throw off the chain on a Rohloff HGB.
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Hello swayzak
My post about chains on a Rohloff eqippied bike (in my case a Raven Twin) may also provide some information you may / may not find useful. Removing a link and fitting a master link was not a complicated process.
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13780.msg103323#msg103323
Now that I've fitted my second pair of chains (same brand as the originals) to the tandem, I'm finding that I'm getting much, much more mileage for the same amount of chain wear compared to the original shop fitted chains. I'm putting this down to two reasons: cycling in a less hostile environment (I previously used to live in a hot, arid climate where there could be high levels of atmospheric dust) and using a tungsten infused, wax type drip lubricant. The lube is relatively expensive but really does extend chain life (and therefore other drivetrain components) significantly. To get the most out of these types of lube, application should be on a new chain, which has been cleaned to remove all traces of factory applied lube.
The following website has a huge amount of test data on various lubes:
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/
Happy reading!
Regards,
HugoC
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Hello swayzak
My post about chains on a Rohloff eqippied bike (in my case a Raven Twin) may also provide some information you may / may not find useful. Removing a link and fitting a master link was not a complicated process.
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13780.msg103323#msg103323
Now that I've fitted my second pair of chains (same brand as the originals) to the tandem, I'm finding that I'm getting much, much more mileage for the same amount of chain wear compared to the original shop fitted chains. I'm putting this down to two reasons: cycling in a less hostile environment (I previously used to live in a hot, arid climate where there could be high levels of atmospheric dust) and using a tungsten infused, wax type drip lubricant. The lube is relatively expensive but really does extend chain life (and therefore other drivetrain components) significantly. To get the most out of these types of lube, application should be on a new chain, which has been cleaned to remove all traces of factory applied lube.
The following website has a huge amount of test data on various lubes:
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/
Happy reading!
Regards,
HugoC
Thanks !
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So here are the front & rear rings (last replaced in 2015 - I think the only time in the 12 years I've had the bike).
Do these look worn & ready for changing ?
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Rear cog looks fine to me.
Front ring ... A maybe
Best
Matt
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Although hard to say for certain, but your chain doesn't seem that slack in the photo. Therefore you probably don't need to shorten it yet.
As for your teeth, look at my recently replaced chainring and sprocket on the linked thread. I think you are probably good for a long while given how little wear yours shows in comparison. The Rohloff drivechain is incredibly rugged and long-lived.
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14287.msg109367#msg109367 (http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14287.msg109367#msg109367)
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Thanks both
To be fair my Thorn does get a bit of a hammering - it's my "bad weather" bike so the poor thing only really goes out when there is a risk of precipitation (that's mostly why I bought it).
I commute up to 90 miles a week in all weathers.
I have commuter (MB sort of converted into hybrid) and a road bike for good weather.
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Do these look worn & ready for changing ?
Are they giving you problems? If not then the answer in no.
BUT - If you try and fit a new chain it either won't sit properly on the teeth, or it'll quickly wear to match them.
I'd give it all a good scrub, a decent lube and run it for thousands more miles.
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Do these look worn & ready for changing ?
Are they giving you problems? If not then the answer in no.
BUT - If you try and fit a new chain it either won't sit properly on the teeth, or it'll quickly wear to match them.
I'd give it all a good scrub, a decent lube and run it for thousands more miles.
I use Finish Line Dry Lubricant (for all weathers according to the bottle).
Should I be using something else ?
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I use Finish Line Dry Lubricant (for all weathers according to the bottle).
Should I be using something else ?
I'm not sure I dare go there, people get even more religious about that than about when to change the chain...
But as you asked ;)
I'm of the opinion that the specific lubricant used is of little importance beyond it's ability to penetrate into the rollers and stay there as long as possible. I keep falling for the marketing and buying the latest wonder oil, but I can't say I notice any difference other than how long it is before it needs re-applying. So, when I said "A decent lube" I meant a good application of whatever you choose,, plenty of time to soak in, then if you have more time wipe off and do again.
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I guess what I am asking is, given that the Thorn gets most/all of the bad weather, should I be using a different lube (and if so, would this prolong the life of the chain) ?
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I guess what I am asking is, given that the Thorn gets most/all of the bad weather, should I be using a different lube (and if so, would this prolong the life of the chain) ?
A dirty chain accelerates wear. I ride all weathers and had an open Chan like yours at the beginning. Most lube will help your chain run smoothly but it also allows dirt and grime to adhere to the chain. So cleaning the chain of crud is part of the maintenance.
I experimented with dipping my chain in candle wax which allowed lubrication which dirt couldn't stick to. This worked well with 800-1000km before reapplication being needed. The waxing was a bit of a hassle especially as the wife sent like me keeping an old saucepan of wax around to heat up on the hob once in a while.
Then I invested in a Chain glider which encapsulated the entire chain keeping the lube of choice cleaner for longer. If you are using your Thorn just as a bad weather bike, the Chainglider might really be a good investment to keep rain and dirt from the chain which will save you needing to clean and oil it more often.
Andre Jute suggests that inside a Chainglider that a new chain on factory lube might never need oiling. Certainly your chain should stay cleaner and wear slower. I am experimenting with Andre's theory although due to a number of health issues this year, I have only managed a measly 60km since fitting a factory lube chain inside my Chainglider rather than my usual 170km a week.
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Thanks
I will definitely look into getting a chain glider then.
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My present chain stats:
KMC X1 3/32
Put onto Raven Tour July 2021
Covered 3,500 miles / 5,600 Km to date in 22 months
Front ring ( 38 ), rear cog ( 17 ) and Chainglider put on together August 2019
Covered 19,200 miles / 31,000 Km to date in 91 months.
Chain almost at 0.5 stretch / wear.
( Previous chain KMC X1 EcoProTeQ
Ran for 7,200 miles under the 'glider. Changed at 0.75. )
Observations:
Chainglider front 2 'catches' don't now close correctly - so I use black tape to keep it shut. Not an issue for me.
Running the chain slack does not appear to affect the 'glider function - no drag felt - and the pedals rotate when walking the bike.
Lube has been applied once to the chain. After washing the bike a few times I removed the 'glider and saw that the chain looked rusty coloured. I took this to have been caused by water sitting within the 'glider afer washing. There are drain holes to avoid this issue but some may see this as a minus point for the 'glider. My solution now is to be careful when washing the bike - and / or remove 'glider and replace when bike / chain, is dry. Not that I go out of my way to 'wash' the chain...!
Thought always welcome.
Stay safe folks
Best
Matt
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A really good chain lube often overlooked even by Rohloff riders is Oil of Rohloff, formulated by Herr Rohloff for his own chains. It's the clingiest oil I've ever met, like a teenage girl with her first love. And it's cheap at about a fiver a small bottle, or was a decade or more ago when I last bought any. I bought several bottles with my bike and until I went over to running my chains solely on the factory lube inside a Chainglider, I used less than one small bottle. Friends to whom I gave a small bottle each from my stock are amazed at how well a thin bead run along only one inside edge of the side plates (if you don't know why, read Sheldon Brown on chain care) penetrates and sticks and sticks around apparently forever. After being used to having to apply Finish Line Cold White Wax every 100km or so -- and that's inside a fully enveloping Dutch chain case -- the Oil of Rohloff was a real eye-opener about the difference between a properly engineered lube and a marketing gimmick for trendies and intellectuals who hate getting their hands dirty (me). And the odd thing about the Oil of Rohloff is that inside a chain case it stays relatively clean, not as clean as the White Cold Wax but a lot cleaner than most other lubes of repute, and even without a chain case it seems slow to gather dirt.
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I will definitely look into getting a chain glider then.
I would note that you may also need to buy a thinner chainring.
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Does the Chain Glider allow the chain to "breathe" eg. moisture to evaporate properly ?
I was little concerncerd that someone mentioned the chain rusting under the glider ...
As I said, my bike get hammered by the elements almost every time it goes out !
Is the glider easy to detach / reattach (to check chain wear, lubricate etc) ?
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It is not completely closed. There are a couple of small 'drain' type holes in the construction, plus the sprocket at rear is covered but not fully sealed.
If you power wash your bike you are certain to get water ingress, but it keeps most non pressurised dirt and water away from the chain, and what little can get in should be able to drain or evaporated.
I only tend to keep my bike clean by using a brush to remove crud when bike is dry. Rarely do I use running or spray water. My nickle plate chain has showed little in way of rust despite using in rain and in snow through the winter.
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It is not completely closed. There are a couple of small 'drain' type holes in the construction, plus the sprocket at rear is covered but not fully sealed.
If you power wash your bike you are certain to get water ingress, but it keeps most non pressurised dirt and water away from the chain, and what little can get in should be able to drain or evaporated.
I only tend to keep my bike clean by using a brush to remove crud when bike is dry. Rarely do I use running or spray water. My nickle plate chain has showed little in way of rust despite using in rain and in snow through the winter.
Thanks
I NEVER jet wash my bike(s).
Actually I v rarely wash them at all (the 2 dry weather bikes don't really need it anyway).
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Does the Chain Glider allow the chain to "breathe" eg. moisture to evaporate properly ?
I was little concerncerd that someone mentioned the chain rusting under the glider ...
As I said, my bike get hammered by the elements almost every time it goes out !
Is the glider easy to detach / reattach (to check chain wear, lubricate etc) ?
The Chainglider is not completely sealed. One advantage is that you can apply a little wet weather chain lube in the knowledge that it won't immediately get covered in dirt or any factory-applied plating won't be quickly worn off.
Removing the front part of a Chainglider takes no more than a minute using a screwdriver to unclip the various tabs. The rear part can be unclipped using fingers alone - this needs to be taken off if you want to take the rear wheel out of the frame. There's some useful discussion of experience with Chaingliders at http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14229.0 .
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(http://www.coolmainpress.com/miscimage/chainglider_inside_at_3500km_800pxw.jpg)
KMC X8-93 after running for 3500km on factory lube only, zero added lube, inside Hebie Chainglider. Notice how clean everything is. That’s how easy it is to pull the Chainglider apart for inspection or service of the chain though you don’t do too many of those either — I do none between fitting a chain and fitting the next chain. You don’t take the Chainglider off for anything except major transmission work. Even for removing the rear wheel, you take only the back end of Chainglider off and leave the front on to protect the bike’s paintwork from the chain. The Chainglider is such a good-value component, it is a reason to fit a hub gearbox.
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thin bead run along only one inside edge of the side plates (if you don't know why, read Sheldon Brown on chain care)
Well, I didn't know, so being stuck inside on a wet afternoon I followed your advice and went and re-read what Sheldon had to say. I am a little wiser so not a wasted hour, but this idea of just oiling one side is only of any benefit with "old-fashioned bushing-type chains"
Sheldon writes:
I just run the pedals backwards while applying a line of oil down the rollers. It takes 15 or 20 seconds to oil a chain this way. In the case of old-fashioned bushing-type chains, I usually run the oil along the left side only, in hope that the clean oil will be able to flush through the bushings from left to right.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/chains.html
I'm quite tempted to try the Rohloff oil, I might add a bottle to my next order, I'm in no hurry.
How thick is it? I subscribe to the idea that a not too thick oil is likely to flush the rollers out, in a way a thicker oil won't, the downside is having to apply more frequently.
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I would describe the Rohloff oil as tacky.
You can hear the stickiness whilst pedalling and the transmission doesn’t feel as smooth and free running as when i use the usual 3-in-1 (regularly applied and cleaned my chains last ages with this!).
However, I use the Rohloff oil on my Raven Tour which mainly gets used when it’s wet or raining and it stays on the chain considerably longer than the thinner oil.
I applied some on my (mostly dry weather) Mercury’s chain but remember removing it and going back to the thinner oil.
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I would describe the Rohloff oil as tacky.
Thanks Gary, maybe I won't put it on my shopping list...
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I would describe the Rohloff oil as tacky.
Thanks Gary, maybe I won't put it on my shopping list...
Gary’s “tacky’ is right too. But you need to think this through. Seems to me that for a rider who uses his bikes for work in all weathers, tackiness is added value.
About your earlier post, it doesn’t matter about the construction of the chain: if you apply oil on both sides and create an airlock, it keeps the oil out. Where the oil doesn’t flow, it it doesn’t lubricate.
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it doesn’t matter about the construction of the chain: if you apply oil on both side and create an airlock, it keeps the oil out. Where the oil doesn’t flow, it it doesn’t lubricate.
With bushingless chains, the lubricant flow is entirely different. If oil is applied to the rollers, it can easily flow into both sides of the rollers, because air (and oil) can flow through the gap between the "half bushings". If a bushingless chain is oiled only on the rollers, for instance by a narrow-spout oil can, the oil is able to flow into both sides of the rollers, through the gap and onto the middles of the link pins. The oil then flows out along the link pins to the side-plate junctions. Since the side plates are oiled from the inside, there is a natural self-flushing action that brings dirt and sand out of the chain instead of into it.
They're not my words, but from the Sheldon article you suggested those who lacked understanding read ???
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They're not my words, but from the Sheldon article you suggested those who lacked understanding read ???
Sheldon's authority is impeccable. If Sheldon said it is so, I believe you.
But all it means is that the overenthusiastic, in their search for perfect maintenance to take a service-step too far, instead of blocking x equals 2 airways, must block x equals more than two airways. So I'll amend my advice: Never add oil at all the entrances for air and oil; it needs at least one hole for air and dirty oil to escape.
See, that's the beauty of my factory lube/zero maintenance/Chainglider regime: among other advantages I don't have to bother keeping up with oil flow because I add no oil.