Author Topic: Reducing the weight of my Thorn Sherpa...how did you do yours?  (Read 31057 times)

lewis noble

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Re: Reducing the weight of my Thorn Sherpa...how did you do yours?
« Reply #60 on: October 29, 2017, 12:00:55 PM »
Looks good!! I'm sure that will be a spec and fitout that will serve you well, and represent a good compromise, as Mickey advised one or two posts back. Good luck!!

Lewis
 

mickeg

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Re: Reducing the weight of my Thorn Sherpa...how did you do yours?
« Reply #61 on: October 29, 2017, 01:48:59 PM »
Getting close to the final set up for the next tour.
Looks like this....

Just curious, why is there an empty pump holder under your top tube and a pump on your downtube?  I prefer the downtube location over top tube, but I don't often see two pump holders on one bike.

Is that a bit of rust and worn off paint on the downtube along the gear cable routing about 10 cm down from the gear cable adjuster?  Or was it just a bit of dirt I see in the photo?  If that is rust, you want to do something about that before you go for a long tour to protect the steel.

Any reason that you are not using the shoulder straps on your panniers?  I always use the straps through the hook near the bottom of each pannier, but mine are fuller.

I prefer fenders (mudguards), but if you prefer to avoid the extra weight I understand.

Those panniers look very nice when they are new.  The two tone red front ones mixed with the black and red rear, did Ortlieb change their color scheme?

Vintagetourer

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Re: Reducing the weight of my Thorn Sherpa...how did you do yours?
« Reply #62 on: October 29, 2017, 07:25:08 PM »
Hi...
The top tube bracket is for the Clickstand. This is a light, folding pole deployed to park the bike. Mudguards are virtually redundant in Australian weather. I have a pair which have been hanging in the shed for 40 years.
The bike was ingrained with red dust after riding the Gibb River Road. It’s difficult to remove completely from surfaces.
And the straps I don’t usually carry.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 09:02:52 PM by Vintagetourer »

Danneaux

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Re: Reducing the weight of my Thorn Sherpa...how did you do yours?
« Reply #63 on: October 29, 2017, 08:03:20 PM »
Quote
...did Ortlieb change their color scheme?
Yes, across their entire line -- in the Plus (Cordura) bags. Most annoying if you need to replace an older bag in a set. None of the new color combinations are a match for the old ones. Nice in their own right, but surely different.

You can still get a match in some of the older Classic (truck-tarp) bags.

Best,

Dan.

PH

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Re: Reducing the weight of my Thorn Sherpa...how did you do yours?
« Reply #64 on: October 29, 2017, 08:19:26 PM »
Load without food, water, stove fuel approx 18kg
With food, water, fuel it will be about 34kg.
16kg of food, water and fuel :o :o
I've never done a tour that needed that much, sounds more of an expedition, the sort of thing I enjoy reading about but know is not for me.

Vintagetourer

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Re: Reducing the weight of my Thorn Sherpa...how did you do yours?
« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2017, 09:12:13 PM »
Water is the challenge here. It doesn’t take long to get into bother if not enough water is on board. I will have enough containers to carry 12 litres if needed. Food is less critical but two days supply is a good contingency.

mickeg

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Re: Reducing the weight of my Thorn Sherpa...how did you do yours?
« Reply #66 on: October 29, 2017, 11:37:36 PM »
...
16kg of food, water and fuel :o :o
I've never done a tour that needed that much, sounds more of an expedition, the sort of thing I enjoy reading about but know is not for me.

I do not mean to hijack a thread here, but carrying that much is not uncommon. 

I did not weigh my food for my Iceland trip, but I think it exceeded 15 kg at the start.  I was not sure when I would see a grocery store so I started with a couple weeks of food.  I think I had over a kg of fuel too.  Water was available, thus only carried 3 kg at most (three bottles of one liter capacity).
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11917.0

I know that Dan has commented on having to carry a huge amount of water on desert trips.

The kayak trip I did a few months ago, I had a bit over 15 kg of food (that includes the empty weight of four drybags) and over 1 kg of fuel.  Location had fresh water, did not need to carry more than a couple kg.  Trip was slightly over two weeks.


PH

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Re: Reducing the weight of my Thorn Sherpa...how did you do yours?
« Reply #67 on: October 30, 2017, 12:11:07 AM »
...
16kg of food, water and fuel :o :o
I've never done a tour that needed that much, sounds more of an expedition, the sort of thing I enjoy reading about but know is not for me.

I do not mean to hijack a thread here, but carrying that much is not uncommon. 
Maybe not, it is after all exactly what many of these Thorn bikes are designed to do.
it's outside my experience and I don't really have any desire to make it otherwise.
But this is a thread about lightening a bike and for any bike carrying all that weight maybe lightening it isn't a high priority.

John Saxby

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Re: Reducing the weight of my Thorn Sherpa...how did you do yours?
« Reply #68 on: October 30, 2017, 12:45:05 AM »
On my tours in Canada and the US, food and water have been the heaviest single component of my load, and much the same is true when I'm paddling (except for the water -- happily, where I paddle, it's just a matter of dipping your bottle over the side of the canoe, or going down to the water with your pot at mealtime.) On my recent trip to and from Toronto, for example, my gear and panniers weighed about 30 lbs, my food and a couple of full water bottles, about 15 lbs.

When I'm touring, I usually enjoy stopping at roadside cafés for a meal, but in the rural areas of Eastern Ontario--in Canada's wealthiest and most populous province, remember--these can be few and far between. So, I typically carry a couple of days' food at all times, and often more.  In the West, the distances can be greater still.  On one day in Alberta in June 2016, riding south towards Waterton Lakes, I covered 130 kms on a highway without seeing any services.  In a jam, of course, I could have sought food and water from a passing vehicle (as I did when I ran low on water) or from the occasional ranch house -- but even there, the dwelling may be some distance away, and the owners may not be at home.

I don't travel in an "expedition" mode, but in my circumstances, it makes sense to lighten the bike as Graham is doing, simply because it makes climbing hills, for example, a whole lot easier. 

Vintagetourer

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Re: Reducing the weight of my Thorn Sherpa...how did you do yours?
« Reply #69 on: October 30, 2017, 02:11:15 AM »


[/quote]

But this is a thread about lightening a bike and for any bike carrying all that weight maybe lightening it isn't a high priority.
[/quote]

Yes that's one way of thinking about the weight question. Some even express the weight as % to make their point. My take is slightly different in that a kg is a kg whether it is 1% of the total weight or 5% of the load weight, or 10% of the bike's weight. Regardless of the %, a kg is still a noticeable amount of weight.
 
The thing about the weight of the food and water is that it's weight which will vary day to day, or even during the day. If I am certain water will be imminently available, then I can choose to unload up to 10kg. The same with food. If less is needed, it's easy to carry less.  The weight of water/food will vary during the tour and can be varied on the context.
This is in contrast to the base weight of the bike. This is set from beginning to end of the tour. By saving (say) 2kg on the bike's weight...especially rotational mass on the wheels....this will add up to a lot of energy saved on a 1400km ride with quite a few rolling hills.

As John Saxby said, it depends on the settlement pattern of the areas being toured. When I cycle-toured in Europe, I was rarely more than a few km from a croissant or a pub lunch. Here in regional Australia, it's often a long way between services and water supplies can be very fickle. I could of course choose to ride down the main highway but it's a very unpleasant experience. Rural and regional backroads here offer some of the best touring experiences. The downside is carrying more food and water. The Thorn Sherpa is an ideal bike for this type of touring. The geometry is excellent.  For real roughstuff outback touring the totally bombproof Thorn Nomad would be a good choice.

I should have mentioned that the first few days of my forthcoming tour will be the most remote of the entire tour. When I leave Canberra, I won't reach a shop for about 170km through hilly country.   Later on tour, when I reach the Murray River, settlements are fairly close together.

Vintagetourer

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Re: Reducing the weight of my Thorn Sherpa...how did you do yours?
« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2017, 02:35:15 AM »
16kg of food, water and fuel :o :o
I've never done a tour that needed that much, sounds more of an expedition, the sort of thing I enjoy reading about but know is not for me.
[/quote]

Only the first few days will need this much load. Thereafter it should be easier to get at least food. As it will be hot weather, a good supply of water on board will be needed. It's not really an expedition. It's in a rural and regional area, albeit with a few remote sections.  The previous ride I  did on the Thorn Sherpa in the far north west of Australia was more of an expedition. When I saw this sign, it became a reality that services were a long way apart up there. And the road surfaces were exceptionally rough. This forthcoming tour should be a lot easier on the bike and the rider.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 04:00:43 AM by Vintagetourer »

Danneaux

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Re: Reducing the weight of my Thorn Sherpa...how did you do yours?
« Reply #71 on: October 30, 2017, 02:45:51 AM »
Quote
I know that Dan has commented on having to carry a huge amount of water on desert trips.
<nods> Yes, it is common for me to carry 26.5 liters of just water on my Great Basin ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Basin ) desert transits. 6.5l is carried on the bike plus two 10l bladders in my panniers or atop my rear rack. That is 26.5kg/58.4lbs plus container weight for what amounts to a 3-day supply. When it is hot, I drink 8.5l/day and need a bit more for cooking. Food weight is extra (I probably scrimp too much there) and I sometimes have to carry heavier items like a 3+ season down sleeping bag to handle the temperature drops between day and night. I typically tank up on water before I enter the desert and replenish my food stores when I leave it, so the balance changes but weight is reduced overall when I no longer need to carry so much water. The heaviest loads are carried only part of the time.

Expedition-class loads are relevant to a discussion on weight reduction because what is left after accounting for consumable supplies like water and food can and must be lightweight.

For example, my Nomad fully loaded and provisioned for extended solo self-supported desert touring can easily weigh 57kg/125lb all-up. The bike alone weighs 20kg/44lb, so if you take away the 26.5kg/58.4lb of water, then what's left is "only" 10.5kg/23lb for food, clothing, cooking gear, sleep system, tools and the bags to carry it all -- pretty light. I go almost exclusively with dried food, but that of course requires water. I lose about 450-500g/1-1.1lb of body weight/day. I can't reduce the weight of the Nomad very much because I need the sturdy frame to carry the weight and the accessories on it (i.e. dynamo hub and lighting/charging systems and full racks plus bottles/cages, pump and mudguards) are necessary for the the task.

With the bike weight pretty well fixed, I'm left to make reductions in my load. When I leave the desert, I return to carrying "only" 6.5l of water -- an immediate 20l/20kg/44lb reduction. That's substantial and very noticeable. My kit is already pretty light -- down sleeping bag and appropriate pad and silk liner, one-person tent, small stove -- but with an eye more toward sturdiness and reliability/longevity more than weight because I ride solo and self-supported in remote areas where a breakdown could be problematic. In the past, I've found some ultralight kit works great for awhile but ultimately does not last as long in my use as things made just a little bit sturdier -- call it lightweight rather than truly ultralight.

Any weight reduction helps make for a more pleasurable ride on any bike, but a given loss is a bigger proportion of a lighter bike and load. For example, 2kg shaved from a bike and load weighing 21kg is a 9.5% reduction -- pretty substantial and easily noticeable. On my fully loaded Nomad at 57kg, 2kg lost is only a 3.5% reduction -- hardly worthy of notice -- and the equivalent of 2l of water, less than a quarter of my typical day's consumption and gone in a quarter of my normal touring day.

In terms of bicycles, my Nomad weighs 20kg and most of my randonneur bikes weigh 15kg. My lightest bike weighs 12kg. A 1kg loss from each is 5%, 6.6% and 8.3%. I'd have to lose 1.66kg off the Nomad to equal the 8.3% lost to 1kg trimmed from my lightest bike.

If I am riding a more "normal" largely paved-road tour, then I might take one of my rando-touring bikes for an immediate reduction of 5kg/11lb in bike weight compared to the Nomad. I do feel the difference and I can cover either more distance in a day or with less effort as a result -- but can't carry the weight I need to with the Nomad or go the same places as easily or at all. My old 700C-wheeled expedition tourer handled much less well with an all-up weight of 49kg/109lb and the 32mm tires tended to sink into dry lake "shorelines". Horses for courses.

[Typed while Graham was making his similar reply, so there'll be some overlap. Oh, well.  :D]

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 03:00:37 AM by Danneaux »

PH

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Re: Reducing the weight of my Thorn Sherpa...how did you do yours?
« Reply #72 on: October 30, 2017, 10:30:23 AM »
All interesting stuff and many thanks for it.  As I said it isn't something that appeals to me other than as an armchair observer.
I hope no one thought I was in any way critical, not only is it something I have no experience of, but other people kit choices are none of my business and it's for the user alone to decide if those choices were good ones. 
My own choices have evolved, I used to carry what I now regard as far too much kit on an overly heavy bike (Raven Tour) on UK and European tours of no more than 10 days and rarely riding on anything other than tarmac or well surfaced cycle paths. I now carry around 10kg of kit (Including camping gear)  on a 13kg bike and don't feel anything I want to do is compromised.

Vintagetourer

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Re: Reducing the weight of my Thorn Sherpa...how did you do yours?
« Reply #73 on: October 30, 2017, 10:55:22 AM »
I count myself lucky to own two Thorn bikes, and I must confess quite a few other bikes. My favourite of all in the stable is the Thorn Audax. I ride it almost every day. I did one loaded tour on it, and it was wonderful. A joy to ride. It’s a quick bike. The limitation is the load, and road surfaces have to be reasonable.
The Thorn Audax tour is journaled here. I had about 10kg I recall. It was a while ago.
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/14619

mickeg

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Re: Reducing the weight of my Thorn Sherpa...how did you do yours?
« Reply #74 on: October 30, 2017, 03:24:28 PM »
...
...
But this is a thread about lightening a bike and for any bike carrying all that weight maybe lightening it isn't a high priority.

I used to complain that my Nomad Mk II weighed too much, I thought that the frame and fork were over-built.  Mine might be the same size as Dans, is a comparable weight, I think mine is about 21 kg, but that varies with how I outfit it for a specific trip.  But, it handled so well and easily carried the weight without undue frame flex or shimmy on my Iceland trip, I stopped complaining about the weight.  It is heavy and I will tell people that it is heavy, but I no longer say that it is too heavy.  Instead I just say it is an expedition bike designed to carry a load.

I have three touring bikes, the Nomad Mk II for heavy loads, Sherpa for moderate loads, and a Titanium touring bike that I built up this past spring for lighter loads.  It is great having three bikes to pick from for a trip based on the conditions that I anticipate.  The Titanium bike might handle a load as well as the Sherpa, but I intend to limit its use more for the lighter weight trips.

Only the Nomad has S&S couplers however, so it might occasionally get used on a trip where its capacity is greater than needed simply because there may be trips that the S&S couplers are more important to me than the weight savings of another bike.

A side note:  Only the Nomad Mk II is a Rohloff bike, the other two touring bikes are derailleur (eight speed cassette with triple), but when I decide which bike to take on a trip, the gearing is not one of the highest priorities.  Derailleurs and Rohloff, each have their own advantages and disadvantages, but unlike some people I am happy to use either.

***

When I rode the Pacific Coast of USA, groceries were plentiful, we generally shopped every two or three days, usually when we happened to be riding past a Safeway store (a common grocery store chain in western USA).  We carried one day of freeze dried food in the bottoms of our panniers as a backup emergency in case we did not find a grocery store on a day we wanted to, but never needed it.  But having it meant that we never had to obsess about shopping, so just having it made our trip a bit better.

***

PH, I was not offended by your weight comments, we all have different priorities for touring.