Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => General Technical => Topic started by: Vintagetourer on September 27, 2017, 03:09:35 am
-
My trusty Thorn Sherpa has proved itself durable on some exceedingly rough outback Australian roads, however in November I will be riding from Canberra to Adelaide on roads which will not be exceedingly rough.
Hence I am wanting to prepared the bike to be a bit lighter and faster for this trip, and am prepared to spend a bit to do this.
The question is, has anybody else lightened their Thorn Sherpa for less expeditionary tours, and if so what modifications did you make?
What changes did you make to bits and pieces to trim the total unloaded weight of your bare Thorn Sherpa?
(and yes ...I am trying to take some weight off myself as well as the luggage:)
regards
Graham Smith
Canberra Australia
-
I try to lighten my camping gear list and load, I leave my Sherpa alone. If I had managed to trim some weight off of it, that probably would not be as much weight savings as a full 1 liter water bottle, so I focus my weight savings where it is easier.
But I did trim some weight several years ago, I used to use Surly racks front and rear. But now use a Tubus Logo rear and Tubus Ergo on the front.
In the first photo, you will see a small platform rack that is mounted on my front brake mounts, that is in addition to the Ergo that is hidden behind the panniers. The second photo is five years old and shows the Tubus racks more clearly, I changed handlebars after that photo was taken, the first photo shows the current bike configuration with newer handlebars. The handlebar change was for ergonomics, not for weight savings.
-
Thanks. Weight unladen of mine is 15.5kg including accessories and various attachments e.g. racks, lights, GPS, bottles (empty) before the loaded panniers and bags are attached. This is with 2.1"Smart Sam tyres.
I'll try to take weight off with lighter wheels and tyres, but also a Ti rear rack.
-
Different tyres would make the most difference. Smart Sam are already fairly light, but on tarmac, 2" Schwalbe Supreme should roll better, mainly because they are more or less slick tyres. Dureme should be in between Supreme and Smart Sam for performance on tarmac. Going down to the slimmer 1.6" Supreme would reduce weight a bit more at the expense of less comfort and less protection of the rims.
Building a pair of lightweight wheels might be worthwhile if you have very heavy rims. But lightweight rims are more fragile and wear quicker.
Personally, I wouldn't bother changing the rear rack, this is static weight and IMO better to try and reduce the amount of stuff carried. Or, if you can, reduce luggage to the point where it will fit in a large saddlebag and eliminate the rear rack altogether for this trip.
-
Also good tips. Thanks.
One other thing on my hitlist is the hefty Ortlieb handlebar bag and attachment. I'll either go without one, or replace it with one of those bikepacker type models.
I've toured on good dirt roads with the 1.6" Supremes and they worked well.
I'll need to stay with the rear panniers. Some stages of the ride will need extra food and especially water to be carried.
-
first up get rid of that front fork go carbon.
next bottom bracket if your using SQ taper bin it
new double chainset outer bearings.way to go.
saddle get a fizik alanti weights nothing best saddle on the planet once your arse gets used to it.
custom wheels 32 spoke.and compass tyres.you'll think you just bough a top end carbon road bike ;)
rear panniers only ,barbag up front ..
a well planned packing list.
u did ask.
anto. ;)
-
I need a cup of tea and sit down after reading the carbon fork suggestion.:)
The bottom bracket suggestion intrigues me as I have no idea what it means.
The saddle. Not Brooks? That's not going to happen.
The wheels. Brilliant suggestion. Already had them built.
Compass tyres? Tried them. Useless in Australia with its too many thorns ... pardon the pun.
-
nothing wrong with carbon sjs sell carbon forks to suit sherpa check it out.
the Bottom Bracket Square Taper is heavy as is triple crankset.
compaired to 50x34 crankset with outer bearings.
ok forget tyres suggestion i had supreams great tyres but dodgy sidewalls
the Conti hardshell gatorskin are class but not sure if they come in 599 .
do u really need mudguards in Australia ?
oh yeah forgot to mention get a lightweigh seatpost (carbon is fine)
-
Thanks for the advice.
Mudguards aren't really needed here.
-
...
One other thing on my hitlist is the hefty Ortlieb handlebar bag and attachment. I'll either go without one, or replace it with one of those bikepacker type models....
While I really like having a handlebar bag, if I had a goal of cutting weight that would be high on my list of targets. My handlebar bag is extremely handy, thus I keep using it. But I readily admit that it has a very high weight penalty. I suspect that the empty weight per unit of volume for my handlebar bag is higher than for anything else on my bike.
***
There is nothing wrong with a square taper bottom bracket, I would disregard that suggestion. If you actually saved any weight, it would be expensive.
-
yes mike but the question was how to loose weight and all my suggestions will do exactly that, might not suit everyone but we are counting grams here.
feck the expense a fella will be dead a long time.
anto.
-
Best way too loose weight from a Sherpa is to buy a new bike🤣
Bob
-
Yeah audax would be good ;D
-
There is nothing wrong with a square taper bottom bracket, I would disregard that suggestion. If you actually saved any weight, it would be expensive.
If you really want to save weight, you can probably still get a square taper TA Axix titanium axle unit.
I wouldn't bother on a full size bike, but I do have these TA units on the 3 family Bromptons. I care about weight on these as I often have to lift and carry them.
Downsides of TA Axix titanium:
- price (but I got mine relatively cheaply with a good deal from my LBS).
- might be a bit more fragile, though not broken any axles yet.
- axle/crank interface needs more care than with a steel axle, either Loctite or more frequent checks.
Good point of all TA Axix units (steel and titanium):
- bearings are standard industrial units, easily replaced, easily available from online bearing sites, and fairly cheap. I bought a small stock of these, in addition to the titanium version on the Bromptons I also have the steel version on some of the full size bikes.
-
These axles sound like an interesting option for my Bike Friday folder. It's a tad heavy too.
I agree with the suggestion about the Audax, as I have one. It's my most used bike. Brilliant bike. Not only lighter but the geometry is ideal for commuting and light tours.
It won't really suit this next tour though, as the road surfaces could include a fair bit of dirt, so the slightly wider tyres, lower gearing and sturdiness of the Sherpa will be better suited to the conditions.
-
Still available, but much more expensive than the ones I got a few years ago:
http://www.dulight.fr/en/mtb/24-specialites-ta-axix-light-pro-bottom-bracket-bsa-68mm.html
-
Graham, a few thoughts on The Weight Thing, from where I sit as a Raven rider. The frames of the Sherpa and Raven seem comparable in weight & geometry -- my Raven, for example, weighs 33 lbs (15 kg) unladen, with alloy fenders, F & R racks (alloy), handlebar bag mounts, 3 bottle cages, 2 accessory bars, and one tail light.
If you're keeping the Sherpa frame essentially as is, rather than (say) changing the front fork to a lighter steel or a carbon item, then the options seem to be lighter wheels, and gear.
On lighter wheels:
> I've had mixed experience here. Before my month-long ride in the Rocky Mtns in June/July 2016, I had used Mavic XM719s (shod with Schwalbe 26 x 1.6 Supremes) for a couple of years with no problems. The XM719s are mid-weight rims, 475 gms each.
> After my tour in the mountains, I noticed several micro-cracks on the rear rim, fore and aft of spoke holes, all on the non-drive side. I replaced the XM719 with a Velo Orange Escapade rim weighing 550 gms, and have had no problems since. (The XM719 on the front wheels showed no problems.) The VO rim is wider than the XM719 --28.5 mm external vs 25 mm, and the spoke holes are noticeably more offset.
On gear:
> I've invested in lighter summer-weight sleeping bag, Neo-Air thermarest mattress, and one-person tent. All these are much less bulky than the items they replaced, and that in turn has allowed me to change to Arkel 32-ltr Dauphin waterproof panniers on the rear. These are each about a pound lighter than the 42-ltr Arkels they replaced.
> On a recent 10-day mini-tour to and from Toronto, I swapped my front panniers (Arkel T28-ltr) for two 13L drybags fastened to my front rack. That gave me similar capacity, with a weight saving of 2 lbs per pannier.
> There's some loss of convenience in these changes: The Arkel T-28 and T-42 panniers have very handy and spacious external pockets which the 32 ltr waterproofs do not. And, the drybags are a lot more fiddly to mount than the Arkel T-28s. So, the drybags carry things I won't need during the day--sleeping bag, mattress, most of my clothing.
> I've augmented my carrying capacity with Revelate "Tangle" frame bags. I have a large on the Raven, and a medium on my Eclipse (my day-ride derailleur bike). Both of these are very well made, very handy, and lightweight. The Lg weighs 9 oz, the Med 7 oz. On the Raven, the frame bag carries my rain gear--jacket, pants, overgloves if it's cold, and booties--along with my clickstand. Maybe you don't need much wet/cool weather gear? If not, then with a Revelate bag and a small strap-on h'bar bag such as the Axiom Adirondack, you could dispense with the heavier Ortlieb h'bar bag & rack.
> I continue to use my small Arkel h'bar bag because it's so handy. The main compartment carries my cache battery if it's being charged, snacks, wallet, (sun)glasses, bug veil, phone, camera. The exterior mesh pockets carry things like my helmet cover for rain &/or cold, and the front pocket carries odds & ends like zip ties, sunblock, and my cleat covers. I also like the plastic envelope on top for notes, paper maps, etc. I use a small strap-on bag for day rides on my Eclipse, and that carries a surprising amount.
Hope that's helpful -- let us know how it all goes.
Cheers, John
-
Hi John,
Thanks for the wealth of excellent weight saving ideas that you have field tested. There are a few there I had not thought of. For example, I might be able to use my spare Ortlieb front panniers as rear ones if I pack lightly enough.
No I won't change the forks. I like the solidity and stability of the Sherpa frame/fork as is.
The biggest change will be fitting the lighter wheel set. With this, and a bit of other trimming I should be able to get it down to 13kg.
A couple of kg makes a difference on the hills. I have lost a few kg myself, it is amazing how much easier climbs are.
What is your choice of one-person tent for touring?
-
Still available, but much more expensive than the ones I got a few years ago:
http://www.dulight.fr/en/mtb/24-specialites-ta-axix-light-pro-bottom-bracket-bsa-68mm.html
Many thanks for this link. Most interesting option. Especially for my folder and Audax
-
If you are interested in a titanium square taper bb then SJS sell some nice ones...
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/royce/ (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/royce/)
-
i loved the sherpa when i had it, but hated the feel of those heavy forks ,
yeah it's built like a tank lovely smooth ride for sure but give me lightweight any day of the week ,
the Audax suits my needs much better i ain't no adventure tourer that's for sure ,still i can ride a bike.
anto.
-
Yes I am fortunate to have both a Sherpa and an Audax. And a few other n+1 bikes I must confess.
The Audax is a very versatile bike. It's probably the bike I would keep if I was forced to choose just one of my several bikes to keep. The red Audax s a pleasure to ride loaded or unloaded.
The Sherpa by contrast is a specialised beast ideal for the worst of Australian backroads. It's been triffic for rough stuff tours, but underused to date. It's ride feel is never going to be fun, but it is always reassuring.
-
If you are interested in a titanium square taper bb then SJS sell some nice ones...
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/royce/ (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/royce/)
Thanks. I will look closely at this.
-
Hi Graham!
If you'll be camping-touring on your Sherpa for this next ride, then I think the bigger weight reductions will come from changes in touring load and packaging.
I was able to put together a lightweight kit ("ultralight" compared to my usual touring setup and especially compared to what I take on extended self-supported solo expeditions) for not a great deal of money...mostly by rethinking what I needed to carry. You can see it described here: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11787.msg85858#msg85858
Total weight of my loaded Carradice Camper Longflap including the bag itself is 6.41kg/14.1lb complete except for food, which is variable. Packed items would be good for camping from late Spring to early Fall in my northwest American locale. It holds a complete stove with fuel and cookset, sleeping bag and mattress, tent with fly and footprint, a complete spare set of cycling clothes plus cycling tights and longsleeve fleece-lined jersey for cool weather, tools and full rain gear from head to toe. So long as I could regularly resupply with food and water, I'd be able to use this setup for several months and it would be tempting for another European double-crossing if I added my size large Ortlieb handlebar bag. My Nomad has on-frame water carriage for 6.5l, and my other bikes range from 5l to 2.5l. In really hot weather, I can go through 8.5l of water/day for drinking; cooking takes a bit beyond that.
As for the bike itself, I believe reducing rotating weight makes a noticeable difference but much moreso when climbing. For me, even a heavily loaded bike goes pretty well in steady-state so long as the road remains flat.
All the best and good luck on your upcoming tour. I'll be looking forward to seeing photos and descriptions and evaluations of how the changes work for you.
Dan.
-
What is your choice of one-person tent for touring?
Graham, there's a good thread just above on the "Best Touring Tent". That has a lot of useful commentary: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3942.msg93659#new (http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3942.msg93659#new)
Mine is the Tarptent DW Moment, shown in the photo attached. It's the best combination of spaciousness, light weight, weather-and bug-prooofness, plus ventilation, that I've found in a one-person tent. And, it's reasonably priced.
As a PS to my notes on gear above: I think I could get a better front/rear weight balance on the Raven by switching the rear panniers to the front rack, putting the drybags on the sides of the rear rack. (The tent sits atop the rack.) The drybags weigh only about 5 lbs each, the panniers closer to 9-10 lbs.
Cheers,
John
-
Hi Graham!
If you'll be camping-touring on your Sherpa for this next ride, then I think the bigger weight reductions will come from changes in touring load and packaging.
I was able to put together a lightweight kit ("ultralight" compared to my usual touring setup and especially compared to what I take on extended self-supported solo expeditions) for now a great deal of money...mostly by rethinking what I needed to carry. You can see it described here: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11787.msg85858#msg85858
Total weight of my loaded Carradice Camper Longflap including the bag itself is 6.41kg/14.1lb complete except for food, which is variable.
Dan.
Thanks for generously sharing all of this info Dan. Much appreciated.
-
What is your choice of one-person tent for touring?
Graham, there's a good thread just above on the "Best Touring Tent". That has a lot of useful commentary: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3942.msg93659#new (http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3942.msg93659#new)
Mine is the Tarptent DW Moment, shown in the photo attached. It's the best combination of spaciousness, light weight, weather-and bug-prooofness, plus ventilation, that I've found in a one-person tent. And, it's reasonably priced.
Thanks again John. You just saved me another kilo on the tent. Great tip. I have ordered one.
-
Good choice, Graham, sez I. Do take care to seal the seams -- Henry at tarptent sends good instructions on that.
I've also found the the nose-to-tail crossing pole to be a valuable addition -- makes it easier to rig a tarp. That may be less of a consideration for you in Aus, however.
We can exchange PMs as needed on this -- there are a few details that may be useful.
Cheers,
John
-
...
What is your choice of one-person tent for touring?
I do not know where you are and some brands of tents that are available in North America are not available in Europe, and vice versa. But I have heard that Six Moons is popular for ultra light campers, in addition to Tarptent which was already cited.
https://www.sixmoondesigns.com/
They use a trekking pole instead of coming with a pole. But they sell poles for those campers that do not carry a trekking pole. I have a couple trekking pole tents and I custom cut some longer tent poles to fit.
I have never seen a Six Moons, have only talked to people that used them that liked them. I want a more roomy tent and I am willing to pay the weight penalty. Thus, I will probably never get one. My lightest one person tent has been out of production for over 5 years, so I am not going to suggest it.
***
One reason I do not have any good suggestions for making a Sherpa lighter is that I have a Nomad for heavy touring, a Sherpa for medium weight touring and a Titanium touring bike for lighter weight touring. So, I match my bike to the load I plan to carry.
-
Thanks for the additional tent suggestion.
I like your alignment of bikes for tour types. It makes more sense than retweakihg the same bike too often which is what I might end up doing. If I ever do another rough stuff tour, I will need to beef up the Sherpa again.
-
A little late chipping into this, sorry, busy, and on a bike ride on Trans Pennine Trail yesterday.
My Sherpa weighs 12.5 kg including rack, pedals, bottle fitments etc. It is a 530S frame, the smallest of the 'mid-range' frame series I think. This is less than a lot of other Sherpas, and less than other 'tourers' from other manufacturers. I guess the following things contribute to the low weight -
Wheels / tyres - DT Swiss rims, Deore hubs. These were . . . . not cheap . . . but have performed very well, lasted well and run 100% true after about 4 years on the Sherpa and it's predecessor, a Ripio. The rear rim is beginning to show signs of wear, and I must get it checked. 26 x 1.6 Supremes - roll well, and better grip on muddy trails than you would expect. Lightweight Schwalbe tubes.
Fork - the Rav 853 fork. A bit lighter than standard - good ride.
Tubus Vega rack
Transmission - XT cranks with external bearings, XT cassette.
I reckon the only way to reduce weight still more would be carbon seatpost, lighter saddle, etc etc. and I don't see much point in going that route - the gains would be tiny, as my present Thorn seatpost has not much 'spare' on it, so little surplus weight.
If I had bought all this at one go as a new Sherpa, it would have been a pretty expensive bike! But most of the components came from my Ripio onto a new Sherpa frame / fork, as I had tried to make the Ripio lighter - it was a lovely bike, but was clearly over the top in terms of weight and strength for my changing riding habits. So the bills were spread a bit.
I reckon in it's present setup, my Sherpa would cope with all but heavy touring, which would probably need wider wheels, stronger rack, and forks with low loader. But as a general day-ride, light - moderate touring bike, it suits me well.
The biggest change I made in terms of real and perceived speed / agility was in the wheels - rotational weight really does count, especially in my stop/start urban riding.
Lewis
-
Thanks Lewis this sounds approximately like what I am aiming for.
I won't get quite that light, but should be close. It's good to know it is achievable.
-
Fork - the Rav 853 fork. A bit lighter than standard - good ride.
Did you notice the difference in feel when swapping the fork? (I'm never going to use all those rack mounts either... and was wondering whether it was a justifiable expense...)
-
Graham: I've tried to makes sense of this thread (I've read it through) but cannot. While a Sherpa is a good choice for rough ground, it also carries weight and does that well (so I understand) on faster, smoother roads at speed. By all means trim your load but the bike is the bike and ideal for carrying, if I understand you correctly, what will be a camping load. Yes, lighter tyres and maybe no front panniers and racks but I'm not quite sure what you hope to gain by trying to cycle fast with a Sherpa carrying camping gear. There's a point at which the load is right for the bike (you could choose a lighter bike and lighter load) but this seems like a Fool's Errand. I say, enjoy your Sherpa, slow down and sleep well knowing that it won't let you down with your load.
-
'Horses for courses' is the principal behind lightening the Sherpa for this forthcoming tour from Canberra to Adelaide. The route will give a choice of surfaces. It could be done entirely on seal, or mostly on backtracks. The variety is available. If I took my lighter bike, it would restrict the route to seal/smooth dirt which might mean being restricted to busier highways which aren't pleasant or as safe.
Making the Sherpa a bit lighter won't translate into many extra kms per day, but it will be more enjoyable to ride, especially in the hillier sections. The biggest change will be lighter wheels and tyres. This will make the horse a bit more suited to the planned course, and make it a bit easier. 3-5kg less is a noticeable difference.
If I ever do expedition rides again...say Cape York... I will refit the heavier wheels/tyre, heavier rear rack and hefty Ortlieb handlebar bag.
-
I t-h-i-n-k I know what you mean . . .
Yes, there is sense in it but maybe the titanium rear rack suggestion threw me a bit . . . :-\
-
Yes that Ti Airy rack is yet to be fitted and tried on the Sherpa. Hope it's not an expensive mistake. I will still have four panniers, but will try to use four smaller panniers. The weight distribution is better this way, as is convenience of packing and unpacking.
I have had a slightly heavier Ti rack on my Thorn Audax for several years, and it's been excellent for touring and for lugging groceries.
-
I t-h-i-n-k I know what you mean . . .
Yes, there is sense in it but maybe the titanium rear rack suggestion threw me a bit . . . :-\
And if I was really serious about getting the black Sherpa to go faster, I'd respray it bright red to match my Audax:)
-
I t-h-i-n-k I know what you mean . . .
Yes, there is sense in it but maybe the titanium rear rack suggestion threw me a bit . . . :-\
And if I was really serious about getting the black Sherpa to go faster, I'd respray it bright red to match my Audax:)
Great colour scheme, warms one up on a chilly morning!
-
respray it bright red to match my Audax
Audaxious thinking, Graham -- is there a bit of Italian heritage within the Smiths? ;)
-
Not that I know of John.
It’s handy having the bikes colour coded so I know which ones to ride on which tours:)
-
On the marginally more serious matter of weighty panniers, Graham, I did a little measuring and pondering this morning whilst removing my Raven's front and rear racks:
> Arkel front rack is 1 lb 4 oz (on my home scale, a splendid antique from a Mennonite general store in St Jacob's, ON, bought on a hockey trip a couple of decades ago, when our son's team was playing for the provincial championship) (they won a silver medal, I got a fine tin scale with a big white 25-lb face.) Rear rack, a Topeak, is 2 lbs. Total rack weight is 3 lbs 4 oz before even adding any panniers.
> I can shift my 32-ltr Arkel waterproofs to the front rack. But, I don't think I can easily mount drybags (2 x 20-ltr Outdoor Research items, about 6 oz. total) on my rear rack. It could be done, but it would be a fiddly undertaking.
> Arkel do make a pair of lightweight waterproof rear panniers, 28 ltrs capacity, weight 540 gms (1 lb 3 oz on my antique scale). The price is a reasonable CAD 100. Here's the link: https://www.arkel-od.com/en/dry-lites.html (https://www.arkel-od.com/en/dry-lites.html) Am thinking to get a pair for next year, esp if I can find a pair at a reduced end-of-season price -- they offer a good balance of space, light weight, convenience & price.
Cheers, John
-
Thanks for this additional information and temptation John.
I am studiously avoiding thinking too much about pannier/bag replacement for this forthcoming tour. I already have quite a pannier collection...some would say excessive... I should use before adding to it. It ranges from a 1979 pair of indestructible Karrimors to some trendy bikepacking bags (Montbell and Revelate). I also have an excellent Arkel bar bag I use on my Bike Friday.
I already have spare front-roller plus Ortlieb panniers, so in theory I could end up packing into four front panniers. It'll a depend a bit on how much volume I want for the fluctuating need of food and water storage. It'll also depend on the compatibility of the Airy Ti rear rack with the bike and my existing panniers.
The food & water storage will likely range from virtually none to 2-3 days supply. It's hard to predict what conditions will be like in late November in the lower Murray.
I'll probably ending up erring on the side of caution and take larger panniers to provide the flexibility.
-
Replying to pondweed of 3 days ago, his query re forks . . . .Is the lighter Rav 853 fork worth it?? It is a bit lighter than the standard fork, whether the lighter weight is worth the extra cost . . . in most circumstances, probably not, unless weight is the paramount concern.
But in terms of comfort . . . I find it hard to comment with certainty, I have not ridden enough bikes to be able to say.
BUT - for years, I suffered from painful wrists and hands when cycling, arthritis and an old injury. But the Sherpa with the Rav fork - no problems at all, either on journeys on the potholed urban and speedhumped roads where I live, or on my long ride in France last year. It may be a better posture, but I reckon the forks are a big part of it - I can maintain decent speeds on urban roads and bumpy pothole 'repairs', which I am very pleased about.
Lewis
-
I wouldn't want carbon anywhere on a touring bike, forks or seatpost, just not worth the damage risk.
I'd take the slight weight hit on a standard square taper BB knowing I could get it swapped at any bike store. About the only thing I'd change on a bike would be the tyres and maybe wheels.
I am in complete agreement with Danneaux that it'll be easier to loose weight on kit than bike, most probably cheaper as well. I camping tour with two front panniers fitted to the back, a saddle bag and a bar bag, unless I've just done some shopping none of them are crammed full. And I haven't left anything out that would make me uncomfortable. The weight varies from trip to trip, but it'll be in the 10 - 12kg range. If you're going to load a bike with much more than that, there seems little point saving a bit on the bike. Just loosing the front panniers and rack will probably be more than all the bike suggestions but together.
My take is this - there's no such thing as cyclecamping. There's camping using a bike to get around in which case the camping takes priority and it weighs whatever it weighs. Or there's cycling where the camping is just somewhere to rest up between the miles, in which case the priorities are reversed and you take the minimum of kit to maximise the cycling. I enjoy both, but they are different things requiring a different approach.
-
Hi PH...I particularly like your distinction of cycling with camping, from camping enabled by cycling. They certainly are different activities, and possibly defined by often and how long the camping sessions are.
On multi-month tours which can include 1 week-long or longer camps in one place, then the comfort and roominess aspect of tent and bedding becomes a priority. On faster rides, then ease of packing/unpacking becomes the priority. Anticipating weather conditions...and insect life i.e. mosquitoes, midges etc is also a consideration.
You also have me thinking that there should be, and probably already is somewhere, a volume to weight ratio for the various types of panniers and bags. I think it is likely to show that handlebar bags and saddle bags have less favourable ratios. However they are probably better on air resistance. Randonneur (Audax) riders seem to favour this style of carrying stuff for some reason. I am yet to be convinced on backpacker style bags except for routes which involve a lot of closed vegetation and other entanglements which catch on bags. New Zealand has a lot of these type of backcountry tracks.
Yes it will be easier to lose weight on the kit. I am experimenting with the trifecta for this next tour. The aim is to lighten the body, the kit and the bike. Reducing weight on only one of these categories saves money. The other two cost more. My observations is that bikes and kit are like bikinis. The more you pay, the less you get. :)
-
I've just been cleaning my front forks and have taken out about 9 stainless bolts which are 'protecting' various holes not currently in use!
I ordered some black nylon bolts from ebay for this purpose... they look neat and I've saved about 40g! I've also just cut my saddle post down (no-one taller than me is going to use this bike in their right mind) and drilled a few 'oles through the thickest alloy ribs on the saddle attachment brackets.
But what do others advocate? Do threads corrode when plugged, or when they are not? (I realise that ones that actually enter the frame are different)
The only downside with the nylons is that they are quite easy to strip the cross head top, if you dont go carefully and grease the thread well.
-
Best way too loose weight from a Sherpa is to buy a new bike🤣
Bob
Agree. Horses for courses I believe rings true in this case.
My dream is a Rohloff equipped carbon fibre framed bike.
-
I've saved about 40g!
<nods> A remarkable accomplishment but as a former devotee of the drillium craze of the late 1970s-early 1980s, I have concluded a little extra weight just makes me that much stronger (training aid) and the only real path to lightweight of any consequence is a "systems" approach - frame, wheels, and then components in that order...and dieting, of course. ;D
The water bottle full or empty tends to make more difference than drilling or cutting. ;)
All the best,
Dan.
-
I did a two week kayaking trip a couple months ago. After two days when I was stuck on shore due to big waves with little to do, it occurred to me that I had not weighed my food for the trip. I had my luggage scale with me which allowed me to weigh my four dry bags that were mostly full of food. After I had been eating for two days, I still had 15 kg of food (plus the empty weight of four dry bags) remaining.
I know that there are people that get enjoyment about drilling holes in their toothbrush handle to make it lighter, and for those people all I can say is that am quite happy that you have found a way to enjoy life. But, that is not for me, I find it quite difficult to get excited about cutting down the weight equivalent of a quarter of a glass of wine.
Your plastic bolts, they do not need to be tightened very much, you should not worry about shearing off the heads. In some places they will keep water ingress from your frame or fork, thus lightening your load by a few ml of water on a rainy day. I will continue to use stainless bolts in such places.
I agree with Dans comment on a water bottle, if I had to use my last water bottle on my bike I consider that to be running low on water for that day of travel. I like to finish the day of riding with one full water bottle for safety purposes, and since I use one liter bottles for touring that is one kg of water that try to carry without using every day.
-
13kg for the semi naked Thorn Sherpa with a few bits on it.
- new wheels
- Ti rear rack
- heavier pedals ... don’t ask why
- swapped to wood chipper handlebars
Work in progress. Now overthinking the tour load
-
I tried drilling out toothbrush handles but they just aren't fit for purpose - the paste blocks up the holes amd goes rock hard. Titanium probably the way to go?
The pedantry of it all only extends to the period one is engaged in the activity (if the results are fit for purpose, of course) My quick calcs last night show me that all the changes (tyres, tubes, saddle and all the pedant bits) have saved over the weight of my 470g rack just added. I'm more thinking that EVERY time I use it I will thus get the 1/2 kg benefit.. but mostly that when I attempt to do a little tour (rather than a theoretical planning of one), I will be psychologically more capable of x miles a day knowing I have some power in hand!
-
Carrying a toothbrush? Sheer luxury. Back in my day we used grass stalks as toothbrushes.:)
More seriously, I find knocking a few kgs off the total load makes a difference.
It’s a month before my next tour, so I will find ways to lessen the load including losing weight from the rider.
-
btw, found great variability in Schwalbe 1.6 Supreme weights as delivered.
One at textbook 440g. One at 510g, which I sent back! Replacement acceptable-ish at 470g.
Pedantry again, I know.
-
Just go and ride ::) ::)if you somehow managed to knock a kilo off everything i guarantee you will never notice it once you start cycling.and that's a fact. ;)
jags
-
I have to agree with Anto , just enjoy the cycling. If you want a light bike buy a like bike, there plenty of good ones out there.
Bob
-
I have been commuting with the lightened Sherpa for the past week, and I do notice the difference. Where the weight reduction is noticeable most as anticipated is with the wheels. Swapping the bombproof Rigida wheels for lighter wheels makes the Sherpa much more enjoyable to ride, especaily in the stop-start commute ride.
The 36-spoke Rigida CSS wheels I had on, are overkill for most of the touring I do. If I ever do another expedition ride, I will refit them. Meanwhile I will use the 32 spoke DT Swiss wheels. The test will be the tour I start next month.
In other words, having two pairs of wheels...light duty and heavy duty... is a cheaper weight saving option to getting another bike. The difference in rolling weight of tyres and wheels makes a difference in the fatigue factor on tour. The ride feel of the bike is another consideration. The Thorn Sherpa is never going to be a nippy bike, but the lighter wheels/tyres do make it more sprightly.
-
..., having two pairs of wheels...light duty and heavy duty... is a cheaper weight saving option to getting another bike. The difference in rolling weight of tyres and wheels makes a difference in the fatigue factor on tour. The ride feel of the bike is another consideration. The Thorn Sherpa is never going to be a nippy bike, but the lighter wheels/tyres do make it more sprightly.
Years ago when I still had my Long Haul Trucker, I got a lightweight pair of wheels for a great price so I bought them. Put some 25mm wide supple faster tires on them, and they really made me feel like I was much faster. But the ride with the skinny tires was much more harsh on rough pavement (tarmac) than it was on my 37mm tires. Although I felt much faster, when I got home and compared times between the wheels my lighter weight wheels only trimmed about 3 or 4 percent off of my total time for the ride based on my bike computer. This comparison was made with lots of rides, not just a few, so I felt that the 3 to 4 percent difference was accurate. Eventually I pretty much just used my touring wheels because of the softer ride, I did not feel that the 3 to 4 percent reduced time of travel was worth the cost in comfort.
I built up a new Titanium touring bike earlier this year. It is not a lot lighter than a steel frame bike because the weight of the frame is only a small part of the total weight of the bike. But, it is the lightest (non-folding) bike I have. I am running those same 37mm tires on it that I had on my Long Haul Trucker. I like the combination of speed and ride with those tires. I could run skinny tires on it, but I don't really want to.
I think everybody needs to make their own decisions on comparing speed and comfort. I probably could get a lighter weight set of wheels and run those wider tires with lighter wheels, but I just do not see any real advantage to it. The rear wheel with tire weighs more than the weight of the Titanium frame without fork, so the wheels are not that light.
-
Titanium has a lovely ride feel. It is not only the weight saving but Ti seems to absorb road noise better than steel.
I agree about the tyres. Rolling comfort is more important than weight. I am using slick 1.6” tyres which are still fairly hefty, and more comfortable than the 2.1” nobblies they replaced.
The ultimate tyre if thorns and glass on the road were minimal would be Compass tyres. They ride like a pair of soft comfortable slippers. I have used them on my Ti road bike. They roll superbly but attract punctures.
-
Getting close to the final set up for the next tour.
Looks like this.
Basic bike approx 13kg
Load without food, water, stove fuel approx 18kg
With food, water, fuel it will be about 34kg.
-
Looks good!! I'm sure that will be a spec and fitout that will serve you well, and represent a good compromise, as Mickey advised one or two posts back. Good luck!!
Lewis
-
Getting close to the final set up for the next tour.
Looks like this....
Just curious, why is there an empty pump holder under your top tube and a pump on your downtube? I prefer the downtube location over top tube, but I don't often see two pump holders on one bike.
Is that a bit of rust and worn off paint on the downtube along the gear cable routing about 10 cm down from the gear cable adjuster? Or was it just a bit of dirt I see in the photo? If that is rust, you want to do something about that before you go for a long tour to protect the steel.
Any reason that you are not using the shoulder straps on your panniers? I always use the straps through the hook near the bottom of each pannier, but mine are fuller.
I prefer fenders (mudguards), but if you prefer to avoid the extra weight I understand.
Those panniers look very nice when they are new. The two tone red front ones mixed with the black and red rear, did Ortlieb change their color scheme?
-
Hi...
The top tube bracket is for the Clickstand. This is a light, folding pole deployed to park the bike. Mudguards are virtually redundant in Australian weather. I have a pair which have been hanging in the shed for 40 years.
The bike was ingrained with red dust after riding the Gibb River Road. It’s difficult to remove completely from surfaces.
And the straps I don’t usually carry.
-
...did Ortlieb change their color scheme?
Yes, across their entire line -- in the Plus (Cordura) bags. Most annoying if you need to replace an older bag in a set. None of the new color combinations are a match for the old ones. Nice in their own right, but surely different.
You can still get a match in some of the older Classic (truck-tarp) bags.
Best,
Dan.
-
Load without food, water, stove fuel approx 18kg
With food, water, fuel it will be about 34kg.
16kg of food, water and fuel :o :o
I've never done a tour that needed that much, sounds more of an expedition, the sort of thing I enjoy reading about but know is not for me.
-
Water is the challenge here. It doesn’t take long to get into bother if not enough water is on board. I will have enough containers to carry 12 litres if needed. Food is less critical but two days supply is a good contingency.
-
...
16kg of food, water and fuel :o :o
I've never done a tour that needed that much, sounds more of an expedition, the sort of thing I enjoy reading about but know is not for me.
I do not mean to hijack a thread here, but carrying that much is not uncommon.
I did not weigh my food for my Iceland trip, but I think it exceeded 15 kg at the start. I was not sure when I would see a grocery store so I started with a couple weeks of food. I think I had over a kg of fuel too. Water was available, thus only carried 3 kg at most (three bottles of one liter capacity).
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11917.0
I know that Dan has commented on having to carry a huge amount of water on desert trips.
The kayak trip I did a few months ago, I had a bit over 15 kg of food (that includes the empty weight of four drybags) and over 1 kg of fuel. Location had fresh water, did not need to carry more than a couple kg. Trip was slightly over two weeks.
-
...
16kg of food, water and fuel :o :o
I've never done a tour that needed that much, sounds more of an expedition, the sort of thing I enjoy reading about but know is not for me.
I do not mean to hijack a thread here, but carrying that much is not uncommon.
Maybe not, it is after all exactly what many of these Thorn bikes are designed to do.
it's outside my experience and I don't really have any desire to make it otherwise.
But this is a thread about lightening a bike and for any bike carrying all that weight maybe lightening it isn't a high priority.
-
On my tours in Canada and the US, food and water have been the heaviest single component of my load, and much the same is true when I'm paddling (except for the water -- happily, where I paddle, it's just a matter of dipping your bottle over the side of the canoe, or going down to the water with your pot at mealtime.) On my recent trip to and from Toronto, for example, my gear and panniers weighed about 30 lbs, my food and a couple of full water bottles, about 15 lbs.
When I'm touring, I usually enjoy stopping at roadside cafés for a meal, but in the rural areas of Eastern Ontario--in Canada's wealthiest and most populous province, remember--these can be few and far between. So, I typically carry a couple of days' food at all times, and often more. In the West, the distances can be greater still. On one day in Alberta in June 2016, riding south towards Waterton Lakes, I covered 130 kms on a highway without seeing any services. In a jam, of course, I could have sought food and water from a passing vehicle (as I did when I ran low on water) or from the occasional ranch house -- but even there, the dwelling may be some distance away, and the owners may not be at home.
I don't travel in an "expedition" mode, but in my circumstances, it makes sense to lighten the bike as Graham is doing, simply because it makes climbing hills, for example, a whole lot easier.
-
[/quote]
But this is a thread about lightening a bike and for any bike carrying all that weight maybe lightening it isn't a high priority.
[/quote]
Yes that's one way of thinking about the weight question. Some even express the weight as % to make their point. My take is slightly different in that a kg is a kg whether it is 1% of the total weight or 5% of the load weight, or 10% of the bike's weight. Regardless of the %, a kg is still a noticeable amount of weight.
The thing about the weight of the food and water is that it's weight which will vary day to day, or even during the day. If I am certain water will be imminently available, then I can choose to unload up to 10kg. The same with food. If less is needed, it's easy to carry less. The weight of water/food will vary during the tour and can be varied on the context.
This is in contrast to the base weight of the bike. This is set from beginning to end of the tour. By saving (say) 2kg on the bike's weight...especially rotational mass on the wheels....this will add up to a lot of energy saved on a 1400km ride with quite a few rolling hills.
As John Saxby said, it depends on the settlement pattern of the areas being toured. When I cycle-toured in Europe, I was rarely more than a few km from a croissant or a pub lunch. Here in regional Australia, it's often a long way between services and water supplies can be very fickle. I could of course choose to ride down the main highway but it's a very unpleasant experience. Rural and regional backroads here offer some of the best touring experiences. The downside is carrying more food and water. The Thorn Sherpa is an ideal bike for this type of touring. The geometry is excellent. For real roughstuff outback touring the totally bombproof Thorn Nomad would be a good choice.
I should have mentioned that the first few days of my forthcoming tour will be the most remote of the entire tour. When I leave Canberra, I won't reach a shop for about 170km through hilly country. Later on tour, when I reach the Murray River, settlements are fairly close together.
-
16kg of food, water and fuel :o :o
I've never done a tour that needed that much, sounds more of an expedition, the sort of thing I enjoy reading about but know is not for me.
[/quote]
Only the first few days will need this much load. Thereafter it should be easier to get at least food. As it will be hot weather, a good supply of water on board will be needed. It's not really an expedition. It's in a rural and regional area, albeit with a few remote sections. The previous ride I did on the Thorn Sherpa in the far north west of Australia was more of an expedition. When I saw this sign, it became a reality that services were a long way apart up there. And the road surfaces were exceptionally rough. This forthcoming tour should be a lot easier on the bike and the rider.
-
I know that Dan has commented on having to carry a huge amount of water on desert trips.
<nods> Yes, it is common for me to carry 26.5 liters of just water on my Great Basin ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Basin ) desert transits. 6.5l is carried on the bike plus two 10l bladders in my panniers or atop my rear rack. That is 26.5kg/58.4lbs plus container weight for what amounts to a 3-day supply. When it is hot, I drink 8.5l/day and need a bit more for cooking. Food weight is extra (I probably scrimp too much there) and I sometimes have to carry heavier items like a 3+ season down sleeping bag to handle the temperature drops between day and night. I typically tank up on water before I enter the desert and replenish my food stores when I leave it, so the balance changes but weight is reduced overall when I no longer need to carry so much water. The heaviest loads are carried only part of the time.
Expedition-class loads are relevant to a discussion on weight reduction because what is left after accounting for consumable supplies like water and food can and must be lightweight.
For example, my Nomad fully loaded and provisioned for extended solo self-supported desert touring can easily weigh 57kg/125lb all-up. The bike alone weighs 20kg/44lb, so if you take away the 26.5kg/58.4lb of water, then what's left is "only" 10.5kg/23lb for food, clothing, cooking gear, sleep system, tools and the bags to carry it all -- pretty light. I go almost exclusively with dried food, but that of course requires water. I lose about 450-500g/1-1.1lb of body weight/day. I can't reduce the weight of the Nomad very much because I need the sturdy frame to carry the weight and the accessories on it (i.e. dynamo hub and lighting/charging systems and full racks plus bottles/cages, pump and mudguards) are necessary for the the task.
With the bike weight pretty well fixed, I'm left to make reductions in my load. When I leave the desert, I return to carrying "only" 6.5l of water -- an immediate 20l/20kg/44lb reduction. That's substantial and very noticeable. My kit is already pretty light -- down sleeping bag and appropriate pad and silk liner, one-person tent, small stove -- but with an eye more toward sturdiness and reliability/longevity more than weight because I ride solo and self-supported in remote areas where a breakdown could be problematic. In the past, I've found some ultralight kit works great for awhile but ultimately does not last as long in my use as things made just a little bit sturdier -- call it lightweight rather than truly ultralight.
Any weight reduction helps make for a more pleasurable ride on any bike, but a given loss is a bigger proportion of a lighter bike and load. For example, 2kg shaved from a bike and load weighing 21kg is a 9.5% reduction -- pretty substantial and easily noticeable. On my fully loaded Nomad at 57kg, 2kg lost is only a 3.5% reduction -- hardly worthy of notice -- and the equivalent of 2l of water, less than a quarter of my typical day's consumption and gone in a quarter of my normal touring day.
In terms of bicycles, my Nomad weighs 20kg and most of my randonneur bikes weigh 15kg. My lightest bike weighs 12kg. A 1kg loss from each is 5%, 6.6% and 8.3%. I'd have to lose 1.66kg off the Nomad to equal the 8.3% lost to 1kg trimmed from my lightest bike.
If I am riding a more "normal" largely paved-road tour, then I might take one of my rando-touring bikes for an immediate reduction of 5kg/11lb in bike weight compared to the Nomad. I do feel the difference and I can cover either more distance in a day or with less effort as a result -- but can't carry the weight I need to with the Nomad or go the same places as easily or at all. My old 700C-wheeled expedition tourer handled much less well with an all-up weight of 49kg/109lb and the 32mm tires tended to sink into dry lake "shorelines". Horses for courses.
[Typed while Graham was making his similar reply, so there'll be some overlap. Oh, well. :D]
All the best,
Dan.
-
All interesting stuff and many thanks for it. As I said it isn't something that appeals to me other than as an armchair observer.
I hope no one thought I was in any way critical, not only is it something I have no experience of, but other people kit choices are none of my business and it's for the user alone to decide if those choices were good ones.
My own choices have evolved, I used to carry what I now regard as far too much kit on an overly heavy bike (Raven Tour) on UK and European tours of no more than 10 days and rarely riding on anything other than tarmac or well surfaced cycle paths. I now carry around 10kg of kit (Including camping gear) on a 13kg bike and don't feel anything I want to do is compromised.
-
I count myself lucky to own two Thorn bikes, and I must confess quite a few other bikes. My favourite of all in the stable is the Thorn Audax. I ride it almost every day. I did one loaded tour on it, and it was wonderful. A joy to ride. It’s a quick bike. The limitation is the load, and road surfaces have to be reasonable.
The Thorn Audax tour is journaled here. I had about 10kg I recall. It was a while ago.
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/14619
-
...
...
But this is a thread about lightening a bike and for any bike carrying all that weight maybe lightening it isn't a high priority.
I used to complain that my Nomad Mk II weighed too much, I thought that the frame and fork were over-built. Mine might be the same size as Dans, is a comparable weight, I think mine is about 21 kg, but that varies with how I outfit it for a specific trip. But, it handled so well and easily carried the weight without undue frame flex or shimmy on my Iceland trip, I stopped complaining about the weight. It is heavy and I will tell people that it is heavy, but I no longer say that it is too heavy. Instead I just say it is an expedition bike designed to carry a load.
I have three touring bikes, the Nomad Mk II for heavy loads, Sherpa for moderate loads, and a Titanium touring bike that I built up this past spring for lighter loads. It is great having three bikes to pick from for a trip based on the conditions that I anticipate. The Titanium bike might handle a load as well as the Sherpa, but I intend to limit its use more for the lighter weight trips.
Only the Nomad has S&S couplers however, so it might occasionally get used on a trip where its capacity is greater than needed simply because there may be trips that the S&S couplers are more important to me than the weight savings of another bike.
A side note: Only the Nomad Mk II is a Rohloff bike, the other two touring bikes are derailleur (eight speed cassette with triple), but when I decide which bike to take on a trip, the gearing is not one of the highest priorities. Derailleurs and Rohloff, each have their own advantages and disadvantages, but unlike some people I am happy to use either.
***
When I rode the Pacific Coast of USA, groceries were plentiful, we generally shopped every two or three days, usually when we happened to be riding past a Safeway store (a common grocery store chain in western USA). We carried one day of freeze dried food in the bottoms of our panniers as a backup emergency in case we did not find a grocery store on a day we wanted to, but never needed it. But having it meant that we never had to obsess about shopping, so just having it made our trip a bit better.
***
PH, I was not offended by your weight comments, we all have different priorities for touring.
-
The question is, when the revolution comes and we are forced to keep one and only one bike, which will it be?
I used to say that the keeper would be my Thorn Audax because it is the most versatile and fun to ride. It’s great for commuting, touring, training and Audax rides.
Now the Sherpa has a second pair of light wheels, it would also work well as a commuter bike. It’s a contender as a keeper if the choice has to be made.
-
The question is, when the revolution comes and we are forced to keep one and only one bike, which will it be?
Nooooo! :o Don't make me choose among my children!!!
I have thought about this. I have...<ahem> um...fifteen. I think if all were gone, I would keep the Nomad because ultimately it is a) most versatile and b) has the most durable drivetrain.
Best,
Dan.
-
The question is, when the revolution comes and we are forced to keep one and only one bike, which will it be?
I would find it difficult to manage with only one bike and no motor vehicle.
My minimum would be the Raven Tour with Rohloff, plus one of my Brompton folders and finally my old trailer for moving stuff too heavy or bulky to go in the pannier bags on the bike.
-
A limit of only one? I refuse to participate.
-
😂😂😂
-
[/quote]
I would find it difficult to manage with only one bike and no motor vehicle.
My minimum would be the Raven Tour with Rohloff, plus one of my Brompton folders and finally my old trailer for moving stuff too heavy or bulky to go in the pannier bags on the bike.
[/quote]
When the revolution comes I don’t think folders will count as real bikes, so I will be keeping my Bike Fridays ... and one of my Thorns.
I don’t know which one. That will be a dreadful decision to have to make. Whichever one it is I will have extra wheels-sets, racks, forks, tyres etc to use for different types of tours.
-
the sherpa would be a great choice if the rohloff goes quare as all things do in the end your goosed .me i'm not buying another bike my Audax is a class bike will easely outlive me and when the s,,t does hit the fan the next owner will have a good bike to get him around that's of course if it is a him.
yeah disc brakes and rohloff hubs will be history thats a fact. ;)
anto.
-
The question is, when the revolution comes and we are forced to keep one and only one bike, which will it be?
I used to say that the keeper would be my Thorn Audax because it is the most versatile and fun to ride. It’s great for commuting, touring, training and Audax rides.
Now the Sherpa has a second pair of light wheels, it would also work well as a commuter bike. It’s a contender as a keeper if the choice has to be made.
I've always regretted when I've parred down any system to "ONE" It should be spelled ONNE as it's always been a four letter word, really.
To enjoy a pursuit, optimum equipment is a must. It seems hard wired into our genes, just look at all the posts about refining and optimizing gear. What you are suggesting is un-natural, on par with some practices only heard of in West Virginia and best not talked of. So don't do it.
The only revolution to be concerned with, and planned for, is that of both of your Thorns pedals.