Author Topic: Advice please!!!  (Read 14338 times)

John Saxby

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Re: Advice please!!!
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2016, 04:09:45 am »
Derek, let me add to the posts by Jim and Dave a few notes on my experience with a derailleur bike and my Thorn Raven.

My derailleur bike, an Eclipse, has gearing quite similar to your Panorama. The Eclipse has 700c x 35mm Schwalbe Marathon Racers. I have a 24-36-48 triple ring at the front, and a 9-spd 11-32 cogset at the rear.  (I used to run a 12-36 at the rear, a setup which gave me one more lower gear than the current set-up, and one less at the high end.)

My Raven has lower gearing than, say, Dave's Nomad: I have a 36T chainring and at 17T rear sprocket. The tires are Schwalbe Supremes, 26 x 1.6".

On both bikes, I use similar drop bars, Velo Orange Grand Cru randonneur bars.

The Eclipse is a titanium-framed light touring bike which I use for day rides. (It used to be my touring bike, but I had endless headaches with my rear derailleur, so three years ago I bought a Raven-mit-Rohloff.) The Eclipse weighs about 3 lbs less than my Raven, with comparable racks, lights, etc.: The Raven is just less than 31lbs, the Eclipse rather less than 28.

The gearing of the two bikes reflects their different uses:  The Raven is my touring bike, so has three gears which are lower than the lowest gear on my Eclipse.  The Eclipse has 4 gears at the upper end which are higher than the 14th gear of the Raven.

On regular rides--recreation, long trips in town, day rides--I rarely use the 2 or 3 lowest or highest gears. On these rides, the bikes feel different, as you might guess, but their performance (more precisely, my performance on the different bikes) is virtually identical. On my usual 55-km loop up into the hill across the river in Québec, my times on the two bikes are essentially the same--about 3 hours of riding in hilly terrain. The lighter Eclipse feels faster and nippier, but it isn't/I'm not. I think the reason is that the Raven fits me better, so that my power transfer (such as it is) is more efficient, and I get less tired on longer rides.

The "interior" gearing of the bikes is very similar: The "base" gear of the Eclipse, 5th cog on the middle ring, is almost identical in gear-inches to #11 on the Raven's Rohloff, 55 vs 55.07. This is by design -- these ratios let me maintain the 80-85 RPM cadence that works for me.

The differences in gearing show up when I have to climb hills with the bike loaded. I can climb hills on the Raven, lugging camping equipment, food and water, which I could never manage on the Eclipse, even when I used the 12-36 rear cogset. 

As an example: This past summer, I did a 2300-kms-plus tour of the Rocky Mtns and Cascadia in the Alberta and the US states of Montana, Idaho, and Washington, and I was able to climb a lot of long ascents in the 6 - 10% range quite easily. The weight of my gear+food+water varied -- usually it was less than your 28 kg, occasionally it was more.  I used my #1 gear only four times, three of those being on the last few kms of long climbs (25-30 kms) where the grade was about 10%.

On the other hand, I used my #3 and #4 gears a lot -- they were my default climbing gears. (And by the way, I had one day when the headwinds were so brutal that on level ground I used the same gears, #3 and #4, that I had used to climb Logan Pass in Montana's Glacier national Park.)  It's worth noting that my three lowest gears on my Raven are all lower than the lowest gear on my Eclipse, which has the 11-32 cogset mated to the 24-36-48 triple chainring.  I climbed nine high passes on my tour, and I don't think I could have managed any of them on my Eclipse with its current gearing, and probably not with its previous 12-36 either.

I'll be 70 next year, and my size and weight is not much different from yours--I'm 5'11", and weigh about 183 lbs at the end of each summer. Friends tell me I'm a strong cyclist ("for my age" left unsaid!), but I'm no speed merchant, nor ever have been.

We all have different capabilities and preferences, and it took me quite a few years to figure all this stuff out. I knew what wasn't working very well for me, but only in the last couple of years have I worked out the gearing so that it suits me and my purposes. I have low gears which are quite a bit lower than those of most cyclists. I only ever use them when I'm lugging a loaded bike up long and/or steep hills -- but on those occasions, I am soooo glad I've got 'em.

Hope this helps, Derek. I can give you the gear-inch numbers if you're interested--let me know if so--but you may not need or want them.

Cheers,

John

« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 04:46:18 pm by John Saxby »

mickeg

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Re: Advice please!!!
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2016, 03:01:44 pm »
A little more background on the gearing, the term "gear inches" goes back to the days of the penny farthing, a bike where the crank was attached to the wheel axle.  If the wheel was 36 inches in diameter (a bit under a meter), then with one crank of the pedal you would have one wheel revolution and would travel a distance equal to pi (3.14159) times 36 inches, or about 113 inches (or about 2.9 meters).  People started to use gearing calculators when the new chain drive bikes that came out a century ago so that they could compare how fast the crank turned on the chain drive bikes to how fast the crank turned on their penny farthings.

So, if you have a low gear of 18 inches, that is the same as if your crankset was attached to the axle of an 18 inch diameter wheel.

Since nobody rides penny farthing bikes anymore, an 18 inch gear for a low gear is not as intuitively obvious as it might have been a century ago, but that is still a common way to calculate gears.  I am in USA, we still use inches.  I do not know if Brits still talk in terms of gear inches or in some other unit for comparing bike gearing.

I do not know what tire you have on your road bike, if it was a 32mm wide 700c tire then your 26T chainring and 32T rear sprocket for your lowest gear will give you a gear of roughly 21.8 gear inches.  JimK calculated you have a low gear on your Nomad of 18.8, I calculated 18.6 gear inches (I probably used a different tire than JimK for my calculation), 18.6 and 18.8 are essentially the same number.

My Nomad is roughly 40 pounds, thus about 9 pounds (or about 4 kg) more than John Saxby's Raven.  I built up my Nomad to be very heavy duty, I do not know if it is heavier than yours or not but it might be.

Thus your Nomad has a slightly lower gear for hill climbing than your road bike, but it is a heavier bike than your road bike and you have a different posture on the Nomad with the more upright saddle position. 

dereksheph

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Re: Advice please!!!
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2016, 05:10:19 pm »
Guys, I'm overwhelmed by the kindness and generosity of the members in this forum. I am not really a forum person and this is my first experience of this. You have certainly helped hugely in me making decisions based on facts rather than ignorance. I have decided to stick with the Nomad. I'll change and reduce the size of the chainring, increase my normal cadence and work a little on my fitness. Andy at Thorn has also been exeptional in his help and advice. I now know how to blow out a rim by overinflating my Duremes !!! I am really excited about starting this trip and knowing that there are folk out there who will share experience, advice and encouragement for free makes it more worthwhile. Never underestimate the value of this to a novice such as myself !!!  If this were the pub, I'd be happily standing you all a beer or two.

My next set of questions is the electical charging set up from my Son hub and Plug etc..... but that's maybe a conversation for another day.
You have my heartfelt gratitude and if you are ever in Elgin in Moray, the beer's good but the single malt is even better !

mickeg

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Re: Advice please!!!
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2016, 07:48:28 pm »
SON hub and the Plug, that is Dan's expertise.  He will probably provide a few links of his past writings.  I used different hub and USB chargers, thus can't offer much help.

Danneaux

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Re: Advice please!!!
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2016, 11:06:01 pm »
Quote
SON hub and the Plug, that is Dan's expertise.  He will probably provide a few links of his past writings.  I used different hub and USB chargers, thus can't offer much help.
I should be able to post the links this evening. I have had to devote some time to "work" recently to make up for doing this...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4oEGx6B0gzBZE9hcy1EUUpkZWc/view

 :)

All the best,

Dan.

Danneaux

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Re: Advice please!!!
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2016, 02:45:54 am »
Welcome aboard, Derek!

I have answered your specific questions about my dyno-charging setup in a PM posted to you today.

Also, here is a pointer to my (Gallery) links showing how I wired my Sherpa and Nomad for dynamo powered lighting and charging.
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=12065.0
To all: Please post further discussion of lighting and charging systems on the Forum boards dedicated to them. It will make it easier for future seekers to find the relevant posts; thanks! You can find these boards here:
Lighting and Electronics: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?board=10.0
Battery Charging from a Dynamo: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?board=32.0
Travel'puters and e-readers: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?board=33.0

All the best,

Dan.
Danneaux,
Thorn Cycles Forum Administrator

StuntPilot

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Re: Advice please!!!
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2016, 07:05:56 pm »
Yep ... 38 on the front and 16 on the Rohloff works well for me on a Thorn Raven Tour. 4300km so far from Scotland to Istanbul (end of the trip unfortunately  :-[ today) I have found that this combination has been great for general touring in Europe. That is a 17.2 to 90.6 gear inch spread.

Coupled with  Schwalbe Marathon Plus 1.75 I have found it to be an excellent wide range, free running combination from the Alps to the flat. And not a single puncture.

I carry 30kg including two days food and water, full camp gear etc, and when the hills get steeper, just walk. Its a nice change of pace. Its not a race after all. Get to see lots of wildlife too who you are walking quietly and not panting hard up the hills!

GamblerGORD649

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Re: Advice please!!!
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2016, 07:40:45 pm »
My first post. I'm 62, 5'8, 170 lbs. My 2014 Rohloff14 has 10,500 miles now, just did 3rd oil change.
I think the OPs problem now is mostly a stiff new hub. It will be 2,000 miles and oil change before any loosening. Mine is still getting faster. My guess is he also has cranks too short, mine are 180, so should a tall guy. 44/17 is plenty low enough. Any less = two feet push. IMO 38/17 is just laughable for anybody with good knees, may as well walk DOWN hill. No wonder he didn't use the 3 low gears. For down/up dips, the best practice to get in 14th and full power momentum until speed sags to 22 before down shifting 2 or 3 at a time. A steep slope will throw you off the back anyway.

I have used 46/48T with 16T and also have the same miles with an 18T SA 5w.
I had the 48T on my 4200 mile 2014/5 trip to VN and Chengdu, 46 would have been better no doubt. Any less ... no way. My time ran out before the plane ride. My heavyweight custom is 60/70 lbs without payload. It was 120 lb on that 1st tour. So yah, I was in 1st gear on almost any hill. Didn't push any in VN. In China it was freezing 3c the last week in the mtns, so I started pushing more to sweat less. I also decided that walking at 3.4 mph is better than riding at 4.2. YMMV
 I still passed trucks going uphill and Hondas going downhill. ha

I love my front hub SA XL FDD dyno DRUM brake. Works 100% of the time. Now has 20,500 miles , just a new bearing at 17,000. Already out lived a pocketful of rim pads, likely out live my Rohloff.... I also 1000% recommend Velocity Dyad rims, which don't have goofball eyelets.

PS ... I wouldn't leave home with stupid DeFaillers for a million dollars.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 04:21:27 am by GamblerGORD649 »

Dave B

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Re: Advice please!!!
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2016, 08:15:29 pm »
Stunt Pilot

Most impressed with your journey to Istanbul  :) I would be most grateful if you briefly share your route and any general advice. I would love to tackle such a feat.

Cheers, 
Dave B

StuntPilot

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Re: Advice please!!!
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2016, 07:19:49 am »
Dave B - I have the GPS tracks recorded for the whole journey which I will post later on www.touronabike.com I am a bit lazy when it comes to updating the web site but will get some notes and photographs on there as well as on the forum when I return home.

Cheers

Richard

dereksheph

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Re: Advice please!!!
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2016, 06:28:44 pm »
I tried to post this a while ago with photos of my naked Nomad but no sign of it !!! so....

Many thanks again folks!

Stunt Pilot

Yes, Id be very inerested in your route to Istanbul too ! I don't have a definite route in mind and quite happy to meander - making decisions as and when I come to forks in the road !! :)

GamblerGord649

Many thanks for your input and advice. I've ordered a 38T chainring and will swap this in. It'll be really interesting to see how this works out for me. Your thoughts on cranks was really interesting. I think most of the folks on this forum have had the initial period of major experementation, trial, error and finding the perfect set up for them. I still have the winter and spring to get the set up right for me.

Dannaeux

Once again, many thanks for the advice on your many and varied electrics and charging set ups. I'm sure I'll find my way through  to a solution for my needs.

Just back from a Sunday ride here in beautiful Moray. Just stunning !! We really do have some of the best scenery in the world right here on our doorstep !!!

Cheers

Derek

mickeg

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Re: Advice please!!!
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2016, 07:12:45 pm »
.... My guess is he also has cranks too short, mine are 180, so should a tall guy. ...

We disagree on several topics, but I will only mention one here, crank arm length.  I am 6' 1/2", have a 32 or 33 inch inseam on most of my pants.  I have 175mm cranks on most of my bikes, but 170mm on one bike.  After I ride 40 or 50 or more miles, I find that my knees do not feel bad unless I am walking up some stairs.  Going up stairs is clearly a slower task than before the ride.  And from climbing stairs after a ride, I have concluded that my knees feel a lot better if I rode the bike with 170mm cranks than with 175mm cranks.  I am not switching from the 175 to 170 on my other bikes, but I have concluded that my maximum crank length is 175mm.

If your knees have that much additional flexibility that 180mm works for you when I have several inches of height on you, that is great.  But I suspect most others do not have that flexibility that you have.

lewis noble

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Re: Advice please!!!
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2016, 07:37:31 pm »
Hello Derek - brief comment from a phone - what tyres are you using? Tyres make an amazing difference to how a bike feels. I have a pair of little-used 26 x 2 Duremes, great for mixed loaded touring. If you want them, pm me.

Lewis
 

dereksheph

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Re: Advice please!!!
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2016, 06:59:07 pm »
Hi Lewis

I have Duremes on the bike and yes, I agree - they do make a difference. I went from 1 1/2 inch tyres to 2 inch Duremes and got a bit of a shock at the difference. More so than between my Crevelo road bike and the Ridgeback.

Thanks for the offer though!!

Derek

Dave B

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Re: Advice please!!!
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2016, 07:44:36 pm »
Thanks Stunt Pilot.  I look forward to reading your post.