New Mercury Build

[jags]

Ah no idea Steve what model it is but i know it was top of the range at the time.my son has one on his fixie its the one with steel rails but looks exactly the same as mine.
give that brooks a go first tho it looks a great saddle.
anto.

[markbUK]

Looks like your going end up with a really nice build in the end, I found the same problem with the edd tool! However I used the two 1p coin trick works a great, I had to adjust the chain this morning, I thought I might be able to do it without resorting to doing that but I was wrong, didn't take much longer to do the jod and loosening the ebb this way let's me keep enough tension on the ebb,  however I would like to replace the suger tongs with a descent tool, 

Saddles wise I started with a rido R2, found that was great for up to a couple of hours, so changed it to a b17 imperial .. Brilliant,  saddles just seem to be a pain in the butt to get right,  I had a c17 for a trial but found it was like riding a pogo stick!

Mark

[uksteve58]

Hello Mark, Yes, I tried the big washers in BB shell....didn't work...EBB absolutely wouldn't budge, all that happened is as expected the tool slips out and I skinned my knuckles. Eventually it would scratch paint on BB shell...so I put it in the bin where it belongs. Although I'd paid for "frame prep" which I assumed included lubing the EBB, I had to take it out just to check to be on safe side. It was lubed ok....but maybe just the inside of shell a little rough in places near frame tube holes. So I polished these very minor issues out with some very fine wet and dry and it did make a slight improvement. But as I said using an open ended bearing cup tool works great for me. Yes, I agree....saddles really are a PITA in every sense. If my new post/saddle combo doesn't do the job, I'll seriously have to consider getting a high-tech bike fitting done in case there's an issue with the way I'm positioned on the bike. Glad your Imperial is working for you, I've not owned a cut-out type saddle myself, that's why the Rivet Pearl might be my next try if C17 doesn't do it.

[High Moors Drifter]

After suffering with a Spec saddle on my road bike for 6 years I purchased a Fizik Kurve Bull saddle. I've just transferred this to my new Mercury and with the steel frame no more sore backside. The only downside was I had to purchase a Fizik Cyrano Carbon seatpost as the Fizik saddle has oval rails and wouldn't fit on the Spec seatpost. Even though this was an unwelcome extra cost it was well worth it.

Id.

[jags]

yes there saddles are hard to beat well made seem to last forever ,the brooks are great but you must look after them  keep them dry and  sealed  if not totally useless bin job.

[uksteve58]

Further problem and therefore further delay....please someone confirm I'm not expecting too much?
My new chainset has lateral movement at the teeth of about 2-3mm making my correct chainline a bit of a mockery.
Its a new Middleburn RS8 Mono with Rohloff X-type spider and mono chainring, running in new Middleburn BB cups.
I took the chainring off and placed on a flat surface..a pane of glass, it seems fine.
I can't take the spider off to try and check that as I don't have the required tool.
I think the most likely explanation is the inside face of the drive crank isn't at 90 degrees to the crankshaft.
Any thoughts, explanation, similar experience.
I've attached a .mov file to demonstate, it's low quality but you can see what I'm seeing...I hope.

Just added 2nd .Mov, this shows it better.

[John Saxby]

That's very clear, Steve.  Is your EBB firmly fixed by its two 15mm fixing bolts?  See my post a moment ago in the "Rohloff combo" thread -- I had a bit of play in my crank arms, hence also in the chain ring at the teeth. The play turned out to be due to one of the EBB fixing bolts being loose (on the non-drive side), so that the EBB was a little loose in its shell, and the spindle of the BB thus showed a little play as well.

Hope that's helpful -- if that's the issue, it's quickly and easily fixed.

[uksteve58]

Thanks John for that suggestion. But unfortunately that isn't the cause. The EBB is very firm in the shell, in a previous post in this topic I say that I can't budge the EBB to adjust it with the supplied tool. Because I'm still waiting for a 44T ring to turn up and then to fit chain I've not got the shell bolts torqued up....(4 of them on Mercury), but it's still firm, if I take hold of the cranks there's no discernible play. I just think it's as I suggested some bad machining on the left crank. I also thought afterwards that if the spider wasn't true then I would have been able to feel that when I place the ring against it.....but I can't.
Anyway....I just read your message about your drive train. I like surly stainless rings too, I've used them extensively on single speeds with no wear at all that I can see. originally I was going to use one on this build but decided I'd go up market a bit.....a mistake I thinking now. I'm used to ultegra and dura-ace quality.....the same money would have bought a DA 9000 chainset, can you imagine having this problem with Shimano.....not in my experience. Even the pedal threads were very tight, I had to work the pedals in gradually with a lot of copper ease, in and out a little bit till they were eventually home. I noticed some small bits of swarf, again you wouldn't get that with Shimano. I'm definitely underwhelmed. I've never used Middleburn stuff before, but always assumed they were high quality.
I've emailed the supplier and manufacturer and I'm hoping I get a prompt, favourable and useful response........sorry I drifted off into LaLa land then.

[geocycle]

I've just watched your videos. Can you try another spider?  It would be good to narrow it down to see if the crankset was the problem or something related to the BB or EBB?

[Tiberius]

Its a new Middleburn RS8 Mono with Rohloff X-type spider and mono chainring, running in new Middleburn BB cups.

I was just about to buy that very set up.....I will be interested to see how this all pans out.....

[uksteve58]

Geocycle...Hello, The spider is Middleburn's own specific design AFAIK, so I only have this one..no other, and as I said I don't have the tool to remove it. But yes, I had same thought regarding BB Shell/EBB, so I put a Shimano UN BB and my old Thorn Chainset.
There's still a little lateral movement there, but maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of what there was with the Middleburn, which was a bit of a disappointment to be honest, but as I said it's an old Chainring...but not that old (3000 miles) and I wouldn't really expect to see lateral movement whatever the age assuming normal use. But I go back to my initial question ..am I asking or expecting too much?....the Middleburn clearly isn't acceptable, but on the Thorn Chainset?.....is 1-2mm acceptable?..after all it's a Bicycle, not a jet fighter. But it leaves me thinking that either the BB Shell or EBB might be playing a part in this.
I also just checked the Ultegra chainset in my old Surly Disc Trucker....virtually no discernible lateral movement, and that's on a 50T ring (meaning the larger the ring the more "amplified" any BB/Shell error would be viewed at the chainring teeth)
So I'm probably answering my own question here, it's clear that what I'm seeing on both chainsets isn't normal but is it acceptable?
Think I need to ask SJS.
Supplier of Middleburn has just emailed me to say I should send it back to Middleburn, and the 44T chainring I ordered 5 days ago and that I've been waiting in for all day is out of stock...a computer error apparently....the old ones are the best!!.

Mov file of Thorn chainset...upside down but it means I can stabilize my tablet in the frame dropouts with lens on RHS for clear view, and I didn't know how to turn the mov through 180, any ipad ios mov users?

Tiberius...Middleburn RS8 Mono Rohloff setup..brilliant bit of kit!!!...funnily enough I know someone who has one for sale.

[geocycle]

The movement in the Thorn didn't look that bad given its an old ring but best to check with SJS for a view.  I'm not an engineer but the middleburn would be unacceptable in my opinion -I'd certainly be asking questions of the supplier and manufacturer.  The small movement in the thorn might be something like small discrepancies in the tension of the EBB bolts? Let us know how you get on.

[uksteve58]

The EBB is torqued to 4NM in correct sequence.
later I'll take the Ultegra chainset and cups from Surly and put them on the Mercury, if I see any more movement than I can on the Surly then the frame/EBB is at fault.
I've returned the Middleburn, and emailed AB for this thoughts.

[Danneaux]

Hi Steve!

Following this with great interest, and appreciate the steps you've taken with video to illustrate the problem. If a photo is worth a thousand words, then video must be worth 5x that because we can see what you're seeing. Well done.

Thinking logically -- so long as the eccentric is tight in its mounts so the lot cannot wobble -- the BB spindle should spin concentrically unless it is bent. If the worst happened and the BB threads were tapped at a cant in the eccentric, then the BB spindle should still spin, but at a consistent angle to the frame, rather than wobble.

If you have a means to check left-arm runout, that would be a second check on BB alignment and runout. Lacking a dial gauge, a quick and easy way it to place a Sharpie permanent marker next to the BB shell or frame tube and used it to measure where/if there is a high and low spot as the crank spins. This can also be done on the right side, marking both spider and 'ring independently. The marks remove readily by wiping with a rag soaked in isopropyl alcohol.

Over the years, I've seen several things ause a wobble such as you have:
• A bent crankarm chainring mounting spider (shipping damage)
• A bent chainring (crash damage)
• Crankarm spider mounting seats uneven due to a thin spacer left between 'ring and spider (assembly error)
• Broached square-taper mount off-axis (manufacturing/QC error)

Given you've checked basic alignment, I think the last might be the problem. Given the overly-tight pedal threads, it sounds to me as if this Middleburn crank might have been faulty.

As for the Thorn cranks' ring-wobble, so long as the BB bearings don't have excess play, the lot should spin evenly. For reference, all my cranks spin "round" well within 1mm total runout.

In no way implying you've missed something, but in an effort to help: Have you checked to make sure the chainring is evenly seated on each spider land, and the peg bolts and sleeve nuts are torqued evenly?

Looking forward to hearing further developments, and hoping very much for a quick resolution so you can fully enjoy your new bike. It is terribly frustrating when things go awry, especially in a baffling fashion.

All the best,

Dan.

[Tiberius]

Tiberius...Middleburn RS8 Mono Rohloff setup..brilliant bit of kit!!!...funnily enough I know someone who has one for sale.

Hmmmmmm.....Many thanks for the 'heads up' Steve......I will think about it.......