New Mercury Build

[uksteve58]

Hello Dan, thanks for your interest and input.

You know what Dan, you've made me feel a bit silly, of course you're absolutely right, an off centre BB shell or EBB would not give me the error that I'm seeing, as you say it would be permanently canted.Which is good news, because the last thing I want is to have to strip this down and return the frame.

Sorry if I'm being a bit dim....but I can't visualise what you mean with the marker pen method of checking run-out in the cranks, and yes you're right I don't have access to a dial guage. Maybe you could explain further for me?

Just so that we're at the same page...I've returned the Middleburn Chainset (same format as Shimano hollowtech with crankshaft on LHS crank and external BB cups)
So for the moment we're only talking about the old Thorn Chainset..ok?

At no time with either chainset have I felt any binding, the cranks are spinning perfectly freely....no perceived problems there.
As per your idea, I've just taken the Thorn ring off, cleaned everything up and re-assembled, but the rear part of bolts are the slotted kind and I don't have a chainring bolt wrench (just ordered one) so have been unable to torque to correct settings, so they are just "nipped" up as best I could, with that caveat...I see no difference in the lateral movement shown in my mov file.

About excess play in the BB bearings.....the Middleburn cups were new, the Shimano UN55 is a used one, but I have a new one somewhere, I can swap that aswell tomorrow just to rule out that as a possibility.

As I said earlier I'll take the Ultegra off and put in the Mercury to see how that looks.
And also the Thorn in the Surly.

Thanks again Dan

Regards
Steve

[jags]

we are going to have to start a video help line so much easier to figure out the problems .

[Danneaux]

Sorry if I'm being a bit dim....but I can't visualise what you mean with the marker pen method of checking run-out in the cranks, and yes you're right I don't have access to a dial guage. Maybe you could explain further for me?

Hi Steve! You're not being dim, I just glossed over the specifics, making for a confusing explanation; my apologies.

What I meant was, one could try holding a Sharpie permanent marker against the back side of the chainring, then rotate the crank so the low and high spots of the chainring would be defined by the marker pen (then wiped away again using isopropyl alcohol on a rag). That way, you could more readily see where the problem is and where (particularly from center to edge). I've done this sometimes when truing wheels and found it to be nearly as accurate as a dial indicator. Just brace the pen barrel against something solid, like the downtube and lightly touch it to the chainring face as you rotate the crankarm.

Sometimes, small errors aggregate and accumulate. What I'm working toward is the idea of rotating the chainring incrementally on the crank spider to see if the wobble becomes less or possibly worsens -- just march it from one set of pegs to the next, being careful to do it systematically so you can keep track. It is a lot easier to see errors in a chainring edge than on a spider, and I've used this method to successfully compensate for some manufafuring errors in the past.

<nods> I would have returned the Middleburn as well, as it sounded like a faulty piece in several ways based on your description. Not to impugn Middleburn; it is possible for any company to have a defective part slip through the QC chain. It happens.

All encouragement and support your way!

Best,

Dan.

[uksteve58]

Thanks Dan for clearing that up. But I couldn't find a suitable marker and to be honest I just put the Thorn crankset on to help verify if there was a problem with the frame or not, and as you rightly pointed out a BB Shell/EBB error wouldn't present like the error I'm seeing, so really the point is moot.
So although there maybe a slight problem with the Thorn Chainset which your method could help identify and as you say some correction maybe applied to it, because it won't ever be used on the Mercury, for the moment I'll not investigate that any further. But if I notice it again on whatever frame it ends up on in the future, I'll bear the marker pen method in mind because it makes sense.
I've put the Ultegra chainset on the Mercury and it's almost as good as on the Surly so that's eased my mind!!
and also Middleburn have now accepted that the RH crank had a manufacturing error.

"The error was only in the Right Hand Crank, which I have replaced.
The face of the Axel and crank bolt were not Parallel."

They've also agreed to exchange my 42T for a 44T which hopefully means I can get a working F&R tooth setup that works with this EBB.

Regards
Steve

[Danneaux]

Yay! Progress, Steve, and moving forward. Hoping it won't be too long before you're on the road, riding your new bike!

Thanks for the updates.

All the best,

Dan.

[John Saxby]

Well done Steve and Dan -- good sleuthing! 

[uksteve58]

I Received the Middleburn Chainset back from the manufacturer, now all ok, (apart from pedal threads...still the same!!)
I did another video..just to demonstrate ring running true..

Thoughts about Middleburn RS8 Rohloff Mono..for Mercury

This particular chainset was a bad choice for my Mercury build because of my poor research.

I initially bought these Thorn Cranks and chainring.

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-130-pcd-ex-bearing-single-crankset-with-integral-bottom-bracket-prod24749/
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-130mm-bcd-5-arm-3-32-inch-single-chainring-black-prod24641/?

But I sent them back as I didn't like the look of them, I thought they were quite roughly finished at the back of
each crank, and they seemed remarkably similiar to much cheaper options elsewhere.
This would prove a costly mistake on my part.

Once I'd decided to go with another set of cranks, I had to work out which cranks and BB would give me the required
54mm chainline.  I'd read conflicting info about that, so being a bit stuck, I was drawn to the Middleburn RS8 setup as it had a Rohloff specific Spider option which meant I could safely buy these and expect to achieve the correct chainline. No problem with that. Where it all goes wrong is the options for chainring teeth number.....

It states quite categorically in the Mercury blurb that chainwheel teeth plus sprocket teeth must be divisible by
four and I'd read that and taken it in, ie 44+16=60 or 40+16=56.
So with that in mind, Middleburn only make even number teeth rings for this setup. So therefore to follow the rule,
the Rohloff has to be an even number aswell...so Rohloff has to be a 16T and the Middleburn ring has to be 32, 36, 40 or 44 which is quite limiting.
My exisiting setup was 42/16 and I was happy with that gearing but that setup doesn't follow the divisible by 4
rule so I tried to get a 44T, but none in stock anywhere in the hardcoat finish I wanted.
At this stage I've disregarded the rule and gone with a 42T.
Before I realised there was a problem with the Cranks and returned them, I'd fitted the 42T and saw immediately
that I couldn't adjust the chain correctly, it was either so loose there was insufficient adjustment in the EBB to
take up the slack or if I removed one link it was then so tight I couldn't put in the KMC "missing link"
I couldn't see logically why the divide by 4 rule was important so I just ordered a 17T sprocket thinking that
would allow me to get the correct chain adjustment. Probably because when altering the chain length by 1
link...means 2 teeth worth of chain, so by changing just by 1 tooth in sprockets up or down I thought it would
work...wrong!!
 
I've just put on the new cranks with new 44T, I tried it with the 17T rear...no good, put my old 16T back on...and of course now is all ok.....moral is...RTFM !!!!, the annoying part is I did RTFM, but ignored it..sort of, If I could have got the 44T straight off, I wouldn't have had any issues.
So if you are doing a Mercury build, and you want no hassle, then my advice for what it's worth, just stick with
the Thorn cranks and chainring...a whole lot easier and much less stressful. It would have saved me £200 minimum
None of this should be any suprise, virtually all pictures I've seen of Mercury's are with Thorn Cranks & Rings

So my 44/16 is now probably too high geared for me, I'll try it out...soon hopefully, but if it's too high I'll get
that Thorn 43T that I sent back... to go with the 17T....But then again if I keep 44T I have option to fit a Chainglider...I always fancied trying one of those, but always had a chain tensioner so couldn't.

As a matter of interest I just made a list of Thorn Rings and Rohloff sprockets that meet the divisible by 4 rule.
(not suggesting these are correct or advisable to use....just meet the rule)

13/43 13/47 13/51 15/41 15/45 15/49 16/40 16/44 16/48 16/52 17/39 17/43 17/47 17/51 19/41 19/45 19/49

Chainglider front sections that pair with the Rohloff rear S15 section (15-17T) are 38T, 42T, 44T
So the only working combination for Mercury and Chainglider is 16/44....unless someone knows different?
Ok..I know chainglider doesn't really go with Mercurys sporty image....but I'd like to try one.
I'll shut-up now!!!, strangely enough I'm sick of Cranks and chainrings and the fitting of!!, and sure you are too!!

[Danneaux]

Steve,

I has been remarkably kind of you to share your experiences with us all, and will surely be a great help to others going forward.

So sorry you've been through the mill on this, but hopefully the dark days are past and you can save someone else the grief as well. Good karma if nothing else!

Very much hoping the rest of the build goes smoothly so you can ride the bike soonest/

All the best,

Dan.

[uksteve58]

Thanks Dan & John, yes hopefully my experience will help someone else avoid the same mistakes.
Should have the bike on the road tomorrow, not fully finished as I'm waiting for some new lighting/charging/mudguards to arrive, but will do them another time. So for the moment I've just secured old wiring in no great fashion and the steerer I've left un-cut till I've decided on a good setup fpr me.
About the wiring Dan..."Danneaux's Nomad" has inspired to make a better job of my own wiring and I'd like to use the Dean's R/C Connectors you use, but the links to them are dead in your DN page. Can you please give me a link to the ones you recommend...thanks. i'm planning to hide the wiring to rear dynamo light under the mudguard rather than routing around the rear rack and also your mod to put "tails" on the Son28
thanks
Steve

[Danneaux]

I'd like to use the Dean's R/C Connectors you use, but the links to them are dead in your DN page. Can you please give me a link to the ones you recommend...thanks.

Steve,

I just checked and am shocked to find those links no longer list the connectors. I'll check further and advise as soon as I learn more. I really hope they have not discontinued these connectors, as nothing I've found/tried has worked so well.

Back soonest with more,

Dan.
=====
...and...back again...

I just checked here: http://www.wsdeans.com/products/plugs/micro_plug.html ...and it appears Deans is in the process of revising the connectors.      I have mixed feelings about this. Yes, the ones I use(d) were a little challenging to solder (easy if you first tinned the leads and used a heat-sink), but worked wonderfully once attached and remained secure, never corroded, and remained tight against dirt and moisture yet released easily when desired.

A quick check shows them still available at a number of sources:

R/C Planet has them for USD$1.49/pr: http://www.rcplanet.com/Deans_Micro_2Npb_Blk_Non_Polar_p/wsd1225.htm
Amain, USD$1.59/pr: http://www.amain.com/rc-cars/deans-micro-plug-2nb-black-non-polarized-connector-reversible-wsd1225/p3593
HeliProz: http://www.heliproz.com/rc-helicopters/deans-micro-plug-2nb-black-non-polarized-connector-reversible-wsd1225/p3593
NZ Hobbies, USD$1.49/pr: http://www.nzhobbies.com/index.php/batteries-chargers/chargers-power-supply/latest-w-s-deans-micro-plug-2nb-wsd1225.html
TowerHobbies, USD$1.49/pr: http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXCGP1
HobbiesRUs, USD$1.55/pr: http://www.hobbiesr.com/wsd/wsd-258/wsd1225.htm
Stormer Hobbies, USD$1.50/pr: http://www.stormerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/seekpart.pl?src=ns&pn=WSD1225
UK eBay, £2.82/pr (from Georgia, USA): http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brand-New-W-S-Deans-Micro-Plug-2NB-WSD1225-/261603537545
HobbyLinc, USD$1.09/pr: http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/wsd/wsd1225.htm

Hope this helps.

Best,

Dan.

[uksteve58]

Thanks for that Dan...yes I've found many dead links, I just assumed it was part of teething troubles and would be rectified as and when.....
I found one of the Dean's mini plug place in UK, but only one is stock, and probably the different design you mentioned, I'm sure it will be fine.

Had my first ride last night on the Mercury, nothing fell off...which is always good
My main hope for this bike is comfort, mainly saddle comfort, as it's really been limiting what I can do on the bike.
As I said earlier my longest rides are 40 miles tops then it's just way too painful to continue, and wrecks the day after too.
So I went on a ride I did 6 weeks ago, just 30 miles. Last time I got to about 20 miles and thought I had a puncture, so I stopped to have a look....at that point I was in agony. So that was my yardstick last night to stop at the same place and see how I felt. Good news is that although I certainly wasn't comfortable, it was very much better than before, a 5 minute rest and I was back on the bike and felt quite comfortable again. In fact within a mile or two of setting off I sensed that the new seatpost was doing something to reduce the effect of poor road surfaces.

Lots has changed on the bike for me, new frameset and riding position, seat post and saddle, swapped out the 28mm marathon plus on the rear for a 25mm durano plus to match the front. It certainly felt a bit nippier, which is certainly down to getting rid of the marathon plus, they're great for puncture proofing but make a slug out of any bike. The riding position felt too upright...thinking maybe I should have got the Long version of the frame...too late now!!.
So over the next few weeks I'll experiment with some different stems and saddle positions.
Back to comfort side of things...by the time I got home every bump in the road was toture, earlier in the ride I decided that it's my "sit-bones" that are feeling battered and bruised. My position on the saddle felt good, not too far forward so I have a decent amount of support, and the edges of the saddle weren't digging in to my sit-bones...so I feel the saddle is the right width. I think this just leaves the saddle profile, which is curved, I'll alternate the C17 and B17 which has a much flatter profile to see if I can detect any benefits from either. I also thought that with the poor road surfaces maybe I should get away from skinnier tyres that I've been using. It's a long time since I used anything bigger than 28mm...I think I'll get some 35mm to soften things out a little...of course they'll be slower, but that's irrelevant compared to my quest for comfort. Searching on-line I found glowing reviews of Rivendell Jack Brown Tyre - 700x33c....but none here in uk....meanwhile just to experiment I found some very cheap Vittoria Randonneur II. I also ordered the Rido R2 saddle that "markbUk" recommended.
The problem I think is one of a skinny behind, most women in my life at some stage have said I don't have an Ar*e.....the answer to my problem might simply be....to eat more pies....
I'll add some pics of finished bike...when it's finished...and pretty.

[Danneaux]

Hi Steve!

So sorry to hear your bottom-comfort remains a limiting factor -- how miserable!

I'm not sure if you have enough space for one, but I have discovered -- at this late date! -- the utter joy to be found in Thudbuster suspension seatposts. I have the LT (Long Travel) version on my Nomad and the ST (Short Travel) version on my two rando bikes. It is extremely unlikely you would have the needed 144mm between the saddle rails and top of seat clamp needed for the LT, but it is possible you might have the 98mm required for the ST to clear.

The LT on the Nomad was fine for my 78kg weight with the medium (installed) elastomers included. The ST versions on the rando-touring bikes required I swap the Medium pucks for the also-included Soft versions. With my 45° back angle, I simply wasn't loading the saddle hard enough to activate the suspension. With the softer pucks in place, all works as expected. The ST's don't have nearly the travel of the LT (think: Rough logging roads and tree roots when traveling cross-country) and aren't as luxurious in their isolation, but they sure do a great job of "taking the edge off" things like concrete expansion joints and rough chip-seal pavement. I'm using Brooks B.17 saddles with all of mine and this is an ideal combination for me. I still have the comfort of my B.17, but without the vibration being transmitted. Best of all, I no longer have the "whiplash" neck pain and headaches I found came from the bike being too-harsh at the rear. My bottom stays fresher much longer on 300-400km day rides and doesn't bother the next day, a welcome change. With my smooth, high-cadence (hummingbird) riding style, I don't get unwanted bounce or bobbing while pedaling. All's good.

Some related Forum links here:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=7089.0
Pictures and description here. You can find additional posts in my "Danneaux's Nomad" gallery both before and after this one: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4523.msg49113#msg49113

Perhaps it would help to keep a TBST in mind in case other methods fail to provide the comfort/range you seek.

Best,

Dan.

[uksteve58]

Hello Dan, Yes I'd seen that you were happy with the Thudbuster. I've seen it before but to be honest I always considered it too pig ugly and heavy to be an option for me. But that was when I was motorcycling more than cycling, and now I have different priorities.
The new Specialized seat post I have, has minimal movement, it just moves on an elastomer, there's no actual pivot.  But together with the quite springy C17 I'd hoped for a better result than I got last night with that combo...it's early days yet of course.
But as I'm keen to get a solution to my problem, and if it's good for you in your extreme terrain then I'd be a fool not to try it.
I haven't set the saddle height too accurately yet, but it's roughly 140mm, so I'll get the ST version.
If the TB, Rido R2 saddle and 35mm tyres don't do the job, then I'll be looking for wheels for my armchair or a recumbent.

Thanks again Dan
Regards
Steve

[Danneaux]

...the Thudbuster. I've seen it before but to be honest I always considered it too pig ugly and heavy to be an option for me.

Honestly...me too. I just could not get past the looks, and to put it (the STs, the Nomad is "different" enough the LT didn't show that much) on a couple of classic touring frames with horizontal top tubes seemed such a travesty I didn't give 'em a second look.

Then, I found my neck/headaches were killing me on the Nomad and I needed something, 'cos I sure wasn't going to sell the bike. I had though it was a too-stiff fork, but when the problem subsided on posting (standing slightly out of the saddle), I figured, "Why not?" and got one. The LT was required for the Nomad, but the ST does the job for me on paved roads with the more limited saddle-to-clamp clearance on the rando-touring bikes. If they would fit, I'd have gone for LTs all-'round, but the ST surely helped once I selected the correct elastomer for my needs. Mind you, this is with 32mm and 34mm tires on the rear of these bikes, so I think the difference might be more noticeable with narrower tires. Back in the day when really good touring tires were absent my upper-left corner of the US, I did loaded touring on gravel using Specialized training tires -- 23mm-25mm pumped up to 125psi/8.6bar -- like riding iron bands but as needs must, I did.

Thudbusters weren't available back then but were later, and it was appearance that put me off. Far worse with the covers on,  thought, but now I figure I don't see them while riding and the difference is so worth it to me. Wish I'd been more willing ages ago, as the reduced shock at the rear tips me forward less on my poor hands, and they feel better as well -- an unexpected bonus. Just wish they looked prettier.

There's two direct vendors if you decide to get one stateside. The inventor has a site that contracts with Cane Creek for drop-shipping and includes a free cover in the price: http://www.thudbuster.com/ The other site is Cane Creek, the licensee: http://www.canecreek.com/products/seatposts Of course, Amazon and any number of other vendors carry them in throughout the US and Canada, in Europe, and in the UK. Given exchange rates, even with shipping a US source might be less expensive.

The one thing that is a bit "off" according to my usage is the actual travel. After repeated inquiries, the answer I got is that listed travel amounts to total possible travel. In practice, I found it much less (due to the elastomer stack or puck), but it didn't matter, despite my pre-purchase concerns. Their success does depend on getting the right elastomer mix for your weight as well as your body position on the bike. In my experience, gearing elastomer for positioning (*effective* weight on the saddle) is as important as choosing it for weight. I also found I needed to place my saddles 5-8mm further forward than on a rigid post to provide some preload to compensate for rearward "sag" when weighted. I usually require a long-layback seatpost, but both kinds of Thudbusters worked well for me, as they decline rearward-and-downward while keeping saddle-to-BB distance effectively constant.

Give it a bit of time and don't hesitate to experiment, Steve. The answer is out there, and a Thudbuster might provide an option if other, more ready solutions fail. Do let us know how you get on.

All the best,

Dan.

[uksteve58]

I had a look at a couple of U.S sites and they want 40$ carriage, then there's our 20% VAT...on the item price plus shipping, but in my experience a stealthy extra % or two creeps in there as well, also there's Paypal's or my bank's 2.5-3.2% forex charge.
If the U.S carrier is USPS then as they obviously don't have a presence here in U.K so they hand over to our "Parcelforce" and  they sometimes add a £10 handling fee.
Anyway,  I found it on sale here for £108, actually I found it for £98 too, but they quote 7-10 days delivery...patience isn't my best suit.
So as I'll be getting the Thudbuster, Saddle and tyres, next week, I'll be a little systematic and try to do one at a time to see if I can tell which of them gives any improvement.
Yes I can see they would look rather odd on classic road frame, but as you say "as needs must"
You mention hand pain....I had that too, or rather numbness, severe enough that at the end of my 10 mile commute it was difficult to brake or change gear. I stupidly just put up with it for a few years. Then one day whilst riding, I realised that my hand was bent upwards creating quite an un-natural angle at my wrist....just because of the way I'd positioned the flat part of the Ergon grips, as soon as I angled this part upwards it straightened out my hand and arm...and eureka the numbness disappeared. I felt a right idiot...so as you say the "the answer is out there", I just need to be patient and experiment....and get a bigger parts bin

Thanks Dan

Steve.