Thorn EXP 500M Powder Coat Green

[janeh]

Since someone supplied the brochure it made me have a fantasy XTC shop. Size s short top tube for me probably. Wanted one when I got my Sherpa 460S but couldn't justify the cost. Shame they are no longer made!

Also shame the current Sherpa is not really ideal for short people and drops (only my opinion, not fact!). Andy B suggested a 54cm top tube would be ideal for me with drops but think it would possibly be a bit long.

Shame on me for suggesting it but how about a Surly LHT frame? Prob heavier gauge but they do nice short top tubes.

Jane

[JWestland]

My XTC is 55.5 CM Virtual Top Tube...54CM *may* work for you with short hi-rise stem (as steerer on mine cut by previous owner) but if you're 1.65 like me I would say 53 cm or less. Maybe the 490L works for you...I can't take the risk as I am not near the Thorn shop. I'd say 54...bit long test first on a bike in a bike shop.

That's just my experience but I read in more places that women need shorter TTs than men. Trek and some other brands actually shorten the TTs on their female models.

Will keep looking for classic Thorn as the XTC inside is still in fantastic condition (had to take bottom bracket out...and yeah time for a new BB...) so I trust a secondhand one.

Bear in mind straight bars give more control that's why mountainbikers use them. So with heavy luggage it's probably not a bad idea. It's just the XTC was meant for fast audax and lighter loads...which to me says drops. If I put straight bars on it, that's the issue solved too. Change to a used Deore XT groupset, bung straight bars/V-brakes on tadaa problems solved!

Steve Goff also does touring frames for a very reasonable price if you're stuck and want handmade in the UK. I'm too pleased with my XTC though to want to change brand

[janeh]

Sorry to midlead it was just a fantasy look. No more bikes for me unless I get tired of the flat bar Sherpa!

[JWestland]

Which probably takes a long time

Thought maybe you wanted to change or...get another bike. And then yeah in my exp...54 cm for drops...I wouldn't.

Got a road bike waiting to be built...51 top tube

[Danneaux]

Apropos this discussion...

A couple days ago, I saw a woman on a bike setup as I have sometimes done when the sort-trunked rider wants to keep a bike with too-long top tube and drop handlebars:  Reversed stem.

It sounds radical (it is) and aesthetically horrible ("different" is a better term), but it can and has worked in my experience, provided a couple conditions are firmly observed:

1) Even with a reversed stem (i.e. one installed so the clamp points backward instead of forward), the rider's preferred hands-on-brake-hoods with drop 'bars still has the rider's hands ahead of the steerer axis.

2) The top tube slopes enough to allow the 'bars to clear the top tube throughout its axial travel. Obviously, this works best on a mixte or step-through frame. For years, almost all mixtes available stateside had very long virtual top-tubes, thanks to clueless designers and a reluctance to design with appropriate-sized wheels to prevent massive toe overlap otherwise.

It also helps if the reversed stem is very short; I managed one with a reversed 50mm extension, the other used a reversed 60mm.

1) and 2) only applied in a couple instances where the riders  -- both female and short in stature with trunks and arms relatively short for their overall height -- had bikes that were too long in the top tube but for reasons of attachment or financess just *had* to make the bikes work.

"Work" they did, and very well! Though I was too big for their bikes, a short spin around a parking lot revealed no handling problems and all felt normal -- again, provided I respected Rules 1 and 2 above.

'Might help someone else in a similar situation, keeping the caveats firmly in mind.

Also, drop handlebars are available with differing amounts of forward reach as well (between 'bar-tops and brake hoods) and this can easily vary by as much as a couple centimeters and is quite apart from stem length. I went from anatomic drops with the brake levers mounted high to compact drops with the brake levers far forward and a shorter stem when I faced the very similar issue of running the 590M Nomad (following the 560S Sherpa) with drop handlebars. Yes, the top tube on the Nomad might be considered "too long" to comfortably run drops, but the short-reach stem and short-reach compact 'bars have done the job nicely for me and I am comfortable and in the correct position for my needs.

Best,

Dan. (...who thinks "custom" is nice, but sometimes y'gotta make it fit)

[JWestland]

Hi Dan was actually thinking Hm can one run stems reverse? And it seems yes you can

I already have short reach drops 3ttt ones so bar reversing stem nothing left I can do

Is it worth the looks though )) riding with hands 2 cm away from hoods is comfy too bad with traffic one must be on brakes at all times...

[rualexander]

The CTC's technical guru, Chris Juden, has mentioned this on the CTC website in response to an enquiry, http://archive.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault-TabID=3812.aspx.html

Reversing the stem can be done. It looks horrible but it works. A colleague had to do that since a back injury made it too painful for her to adopt the customary aerodynamic crouch. She had to sit more upright and could not use dropped handlebars any other way. She could have used straight bars of course, but already had the drops and still wanted the choice of hand positions they give.
The “normal” situation, with forward-swept dropped handlebars on an extension of 10cm or so, is actually the weird one, since it places the hands a considerable distance ahead of the steering axis. When a racing cyclist steers, his hands don’t simply reciprocate – like on a car steering wheel – but also swing from side to side. Triathlon handlebars involve an even stranger way of steering, with the hands so far in front it’s more like working a boat tiller – from outside the boat! It’s generally acknowledged that this reduces control, which is why it’s not allowed except in time trials – where riders are supposed to keep so far away from one another it doesn’t matter so much if one looses it!

Turning the stem around to face backward subtracts the extension length from the forward sweep of the dropped handlebar, so your hands will end up more or less in line with the steering axis. They’ll be in about the same place as they would be with a traditional, back-swept roadster handlebar. The bike will feel different from how it did, more like a roadster than a sportster, but there's nothing wrong about that. If anything it is more normal. It doesn’t affect frame geometry or trail in any way at all.

A more upright riding position puts a bit less weight on the front wheel of course, which always makes a bike feel more lively, but that is true regardless of how you achieve that position. Purists may chunter but don't let them bother you: a reversed stem will work fine.

[JWestland]

So right now I need 3.5 cm less reach...if I reverse the stem which has a 6.5 cm reach...I get -3 reach. Eh. Well can give it a try!

As a 490S XTC is probably impossible to get until one comes up...but never seen one that size on e-bay/gumtree as yet and SJS doesn't have a frame that size left

Not sure RE EXP it's a very solid bike, but maybe a bit too slow for me. And the XTC is madly versatile, bar the loooooooooong steering circle due to wheelbase it's about as perfect a bike you can get, well behaved, does audaxes, happy with loading and takes fat tires.

Bring it back please SJS 

[Danneaux]

Jawine,

If you do try for a -3cm stem reversal, please do use caution; if the handlebar hooks fail to clear your top tube, the ends will instead catch on it and can limit the available steering lock. The two such mods I made for others were on mixtes where this was not a problem (top tube sloped rapidly enough to completely clear the drop 'bar "hooks".

As a sizing tool to simulate a shorter top-tube...great. But please do use care if riding with same!

All the best,

Dan. (...who wonders "What have Chris Juden and Danneaux done, suggesting this?"  )

[JWestland]

I will give it a careful ride...but indeed it may foul the top tube. It may also look so silly that I refuse to go out on it

I am at 55.5 VT. With the saddle forwards: -1.5 CM gives 54.0 VT. If I lose another 2.5 cm with current stem gives 51.5 it's perfect.
490S is best, 50.5 VT so I put a 1cm longer stem on and voila!
But SJS doesn't have any...and 9 months of e-bay so far only turned up the XTC I am on which barely fits and a SWB XTC on SJS and SWBs cannot carry front loads.
A 490L has a 53 cm VT. (SJS has one)
SJS also has an 455XS L TT frame with 52 VT. It might work with a long seat post but at the cost of a frame that might look too small. And can't get a shorter stem than what I currently use, short stem makes for nervy steering as lower speeds.
455XS 10 cm lower than the 525L I am on, so the stem must be about 10 higher too...that's a lot of stem to be visible, about 25 cm VS current 15. Steerectile Dysfunction to the max

See the dilemma, you actually WANT to save up and spend money but can't, it's terrible 

[Danneaux]

See the dilemma, you actually WANT to save up and spend money but can't, it's terrible

Agreed! It is!

Sympathies and empathies your way, Jawine, so frustrating!

I know some of the solutions may "look funny", but does that matter so much if the fit can be good and the ride is great? I realize the best is to have looks and function/ergonomics, but....

Have you looked at the Syntace VRO stems? I know Andre is not fond of them (and for good reason), but they do solve a number of top tube fitment issues without leaving a lot of steerer exposed. See: http://www.syntaceusa.com/index.cfm?pid=3&pk=389 Even a <shudder> adjustable stem can do wonders for sit, though at the cost of creaks and aesthetics. Sad, that.

By the way, the downhill crowd have gotten into zero-reach stems, as have the BMXers. Here's a link to one of the latter, unfortunately only for 1" steerers: https://www.jrbicycles.com/storefront/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=2132 a threadless Look ergoStem can get you there as well, but they look truly weird: http://elephantcycle.jp/?pid=33032964

All the best,

Dan. (...who is stemming the tide with stop-gap solutions)

[JWestland]

Hi Dan,

Good news, can reverse stem as the cables for brakes are too short  

The VRO won't help as it can't shorten the reach more than I have, that Look ergo stem on the other hand...

I had a good look at position though, maybe it's the cranks that are part fault too, 175 with high BB might put my legs up too high. Which puts knees up high which means you need to tense lower back more/move feet more to keep the knee angle sound.

Not sure there's bike fitters here...and they'd probably tell me to get another bike which we already know  

EDIT look seems to be sold out but...mountainbikes go even shorter down to 4.5 cm: http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/components/stem/product/review-gravity-gap-os-stem-11-45125

That makes for exciting... steering on drop bars, but good to know it's possible

The people that made the XTCs are still going, it's too bad Thorn doesn't do them anymore. Of course I can save up and get them to make a frame with same geometry as the XTC (if that's legal, are frames copyrighted?) but it can't be branded Thorn, nor covered by Thorn warranty/service.

Thorn resale values are also good, whereas other builders it's hit/miss.

[Danneaux]

Hi Jawine!

Hmm. I keep thinking...there must be some way to economically salvage the fit of your beloved XTC.

Have you thought about contacting Woodrup to see if the top- and downtubes might be shortened? As I recall, the frame is fillet-brazed, making it possible (I once shortened a frame vertically as an exercise and it came out fine). This might be less costly than a whole new frame, even with the cost of a respray included. It is a thought, anyway, and not much different than what is a common frame repair when someone strikes a curb at speed and wrinkles the top- and downtubes.

Sometimes, sentiment and economics make the path less taken more appealing.

I'm not so sure the 175mm cranks are affecting the overall bike fit. They are longer than would be conventionally prescribed for someone of your stature/leg length, but you're achieving stellar results with them when it comes to pulling high gears. If you can tolerate turning larger circles with the pedals, then it is down to preference. For comparison's sake, I'm a tick over 180cm and feel comfortable with 170mm cranks. My sister is 160cm and...she also prefers 170mm cranks to the more commonly prescribed 165s her height would indicate; she just likes the feel better and can tolerate the 170s, so the "recommendations" don't hold in her case. if the 175s work in practice for you (yes) and the BB clearance allows them (yes), then all's fine. You do have to contort a bit more during the pedal cycle, though, just as you've observed.

Maybe a really good-condition XTC frame will pop up on the used market or -- this would be really ideal -- someone would be interested in a frame swap, smaller for larger and vice versa. Fingers crossed!

All the best,

Dan.

[JWestland]

Hi Dan with the prices of a spray (£100) and the work of fixing (£140) brings it to £240.
This then comes with postage which is at least £50 back and forth (and may be £100 as the cycle shops often won't post so you need courier) and you're at £290-£340. Then, if you want decals restored it's £330-£390.

And for that money...well...you may as well stuff a £20 note in a jar each month and get a whole new frame saved up in two years. And if in that two years the right size comes up via Thorn customer selling old XTC or Fleabay or gumtree...

The internals of the XTC look spotless there's a reason Thorn secondhand frames are prized highly. It's too bad there is no custom builds anymore, which I totally understand due to the business model but a custom build + the secondhand returns on the frames/bikes would make it worthwhile for anybody wanting to pay the extra for custom.

Quite often excellent framebuilders frames/bikes like Steve Goff frames goes for much less than Thorn. It's like with cars: The secondhand market is decided by the reputation of the brand

Cranks well as Masher the 175 is grand! It's more the angle that concerns me, per bikefitting rules it should not be too sharp on the upstroke. I think it is slightly and better to be careful with the aul knees. There's no secondhand knee market

[janeh]

I agree, bring back the XTC. Even the brochure is so nicely written and not too complicated..Sizing really easy to work out..