Author Topic: Which Thorn model is more likely to save your life?  (Read 2923 times)

Andre Jute

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Which Thorn model is more likely to save your life?
« on: June 05, 2014, 12:04:41 PM »
Dan Wood, a Nomad owner, is on tour in Europe with a Raven Andy lent him. Dan has sent us this interesting remark:

I do think the Raven Tour is a better all 'round tourer than my Nomad because it is not biased so heavily toward maximum cargo capacity. However, I need the extra expedition grade carriage of Seymour to carry my water and food stores in the desert. For all other more ordinary touring where similar versatility but lesser capacity is needed, then the Raven Tour would be a better choice in my opinion.

Interesting comparison. But suppose you couldn't afford both for different purposes, and suppose you plan on making the one bike you buy last the rest of your life. Then the choice should rationally be based on which would save your life at the margin, that is, in the most extreme circumstance you could (note, not will) ever encounter, even if only once in a lifetime, the point where in classical economics in the desert the extra bottle of water becomes worth more than its weight in diamonds.

In that light, shouldn't we be surprised that the Nomad doesn't outsell the Raven 10 to 1?

Of course, it isn't the Nomad but the Raven on my perennial shortlist, now of only two bikes (the Raven and the Kranich I already have). But then I'm past touring in rough places, and it's been thirty years since I rode more than ten minutes' brisk walk from a landline. However, I daresay most Thorn owners at least dream of riding down the length of Africa, or similar heroic journeys, so the logic should (theoretically) apply.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 09:46:59 PM by Andre Jute »

Danneaux

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Re: Which Thorn model is more likely to save your life?
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2014, 08:09:05 AM »
Interesting premise and question, Andre.

For my solo, self - supported extended expedition tours onto remote areas and desert conditions....it wasn't even a choice. The Nomad has the cargo/weight capacity for hauling the 26.5 to 32 liters of water I need to carry (remember, 1 liter = 1 kilogram, so we are talking a substantial load in water alone,  which indeed is more precious than diamonds when it is critical to life support).

Of course this is overkill for most ordinary needs including mine;  I don't take that sort of tour every time, but when I do it seems only the Nomad will do.

As could be expected,  a bike of such exceptional capacity is less ideal for lesser usage.  Ridden unladen, the stiff frame imparts a harsh ride. To use the bike unladen on logging roads,  I found it necessary to equip it with a Thudbuster Long Travel suspension seatpost,  which has fully addressed this shortcoming. Similarly,  such a robust bike weighs more...Mine is 20kg. This makes for a heavier than necessary bike when carrying lesser loads, but the difference is used to good effect and largely transparent when hauling near limit loads. It does, however, make for a bike that will not be as fast as its lighter brethren when ridden unladen. Andy Blance takes care to highlight this point in his brochure copy, saying it is not a bike for people who hate to be passed by others on the road.

I myself would describe the Nomad as "a lot of bike" and therefore less well suited to general touring and all 'round service than, say, the Raven Tour Andy BG has so kindly loaned me. I'm carrying much more reasonable loads here in Europe than on my desert expeditions.  During the high temps I experienced in Serbia, I only carried 7.5 liters of water and drank 8 liters daily.  Sources of fluid resupply were as close as the nearest store or roadside well. Even so, these could sometimes be a good distance away or closed, hence the three 1.5l bottles on the frame and another 1.5l bottle tucked under the straps securing the cap - top lid on each front Ortlieb Sport Packer pannier. I needed water for cooking my dehydrated soups as well.

The Raven Tour is working brilliantly under this use and in these conditions and handles more like a rigid frame,  drop bar MTB when carrying my touring loads on very broken pavement, sand roads,  gravel, dirt tracks and across and through rock slides on its 26x2.0 Schwalbe Marathon Deluxe tires.

Though I had always toured rough country on 700x32 road slicks previous to buying Sherpa (and this built my bike handling skillset in ways I'd never have seen if I'd used 26x2.0 tires from the beginning), for the first time I'll concede this tour would not have been safe or even possible on 700x32 wheels/tires. The road edge was just too broken and it really required the wider, lower pressure tires to handle the transitions without risk of a fall.

As it was, things were sometimes tight. To prevent getting sucked under the wheels of a bus passing at 100kph,  I left four parallel clean finger marks the length of the dirty side fending it off. All would have been fine had not an oncoming driver chosen to make a pass just as the bus drew opposite. The bus driver made the correct decision to crowd the one to preserve the many, and so was blameless though things got tight for a bit. I also wore holes in the bottom of my right front Ortlieb pannier scraping bridge supports, trying to create that extra 4cm of needed clearance at times. I can patch the damage at home with Seam Grip and rounds cut from black Cordura.  Badges of honor, they'll be.

So.

In the most extreme conditions,  my vote for Thorn model most likely to save a life goes to my essential tool in such cases...my Nomad Mk2.

For all ordinary to most demanding touring and world expeditions, the now discontinued Raven Tour loaned me by Andy BG gets the vote.  It is a relatively heavy touring bike and will never be described as "fast" or "sprightly" except in relative terms, but it is more well rounded and lighter and more ideally suited to a wider range of uses than my Nomad Mk2...but can't approach or match the Nomad's cargo capacity if that is a requirement. For me, that is sometimes *the* critical requirement,  and then nothing else will do.

However, as a practical matter,  the majority of riders simply won't need or use a bike of the Nomad's capacity often enough to offset the compromise in unladen ride quality and weight,  so it is no surprise we tend to see more Raven Tours (and now it has been discontinued,  the lighter and even more versatile Raven) in use than we do Nomads.

Most people likely buy their bikes for reasons other than their ultimate lifesaving capabilities,  though I admit that was a primary factor in my selection as I wouldn't last long without the required amount of water and a bike capable of carrying it.

And now, of course, I'd *also* love a Raven Tour as well!

However, given my available resources, it will be the Nomad that lasts me out. It will do everything the Raven can, and *more* so it covers all bases. The suspension seatpost makes the unladen ride comfortable and the only remaining issue is greater weight and sluggish handling and acceleration unladen,  none of which are stoppers. I'm very very pleased with it, wouldn't dream of moving it on, and have my 700C-wheeled 14.5kg randonneur/touring bike for those regular 200 - 400 km day rides where I won't be going offroad so extensively. The Nomad is perfectly happy to do endless 200km day rides unladen with the opportunity to pursue any little goat track or single-track I come across.  

All the best,

Dan.  (...who is at the moment languishing in a Prague hotel paid for by family members,  penniless and destitute and awaiting card replacement after being robbed on the subway,  having chosen that moment to comingle all touring funding sources for the first time in 35 years of adventuring)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 09:57:43 PM by Danneaux »

leftpoole

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Re: Which Thorn model is more likely to save your life?
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2014, 08:26:58 AM »
All the best,

Dan.  (...who is at the moment languishing in a Prague hotel paid for by family members,  penniless and destitute and awaiting card replacement after being robbed on the subway,  having chosen that moment to comingle all touring funding sources for the first time in 35 years of adventuring)

OOPS!
I hope things improve.
John

Danneaux

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Re: Which Thorn model is more likely to save your life?
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2014, 08:34:09 AM »
Thanks, John. FedEx is looking at a possible delivery tomorrow. Until then,  it is the Shoe Leather Express with care in a sometimes sketchy part of town.

All the best,  

Dan. (...With Andy's bike secure behind two key - card controlled doors in the hotel employees' locker room)

lewis noble

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Re: Which Thorn model is more likely to save your life?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2014, 09:29:48 AM »
Sorry to hear your news, Dan - we had problems in Prague a few years ago, harrassed by "police" investigating "foreign exchange" fraud . . . .

Hope it gets sorted out, and glad you are safe and making good progress otherwise.

Lewis
 

Danneaux

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Re: Which Thorn model is more likely to save your life?
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2014, 09:44:41 AM »
Many thanks for the kind reply,  Lewis. It is a longish story but could have been much worse. Worst at the moment is the delay caused by the cards being in transit. They can't be readily forwarded in a timely manner now they are en route, so using alternative means like wire transfers is not so practical at this point but remains an option.

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 12:07:57 PM by Danneaux »

geocycle

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Re: Which Thorn model is more likely to save your life?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2014, 11:08:28 AM »
Great write up dan, pleased you are enjoying the RT so much.  I can see a frame being purchased at some point so you can mix and match with your nomad!

So sorry to hear of the robbery. It dents your faith in human nature.  Still, I believe 99% of folk are fundamentally good guys. Can we mobilise the Prague contingent of the forum to help out.. There must be one!

 

lewis noble

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Re: Which Thorn model is more likely to save your life?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2014, 11:47:12 AM »
Or we could all go there and party!!
 

Danneaux

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Re: Which Thorn model is more likely to save your life?
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2014, 12:12:21 PM »
I heartily agree,  Geo'. With this single exception, *every* person I have encountered on my tour to date has gone well out of their way to be kind, to make me feel welcome, and to offer help and assistance before I could even think to ask.  I have enough stories of people's essential kindness to last a lifetime. The Good People are definitely winning this go-'round!

All the best,

Dan.

StuntPilot

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Re: Which Thorn model is more likely to save your life?
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2014, 12:36:48 PM »
Good to hear your experiences with the Raven Tour (being a proud owner of one). Great summary of your experience with the bike. This mirrors my experience on last summer's tour, especially on rough tracks in Denmark where the Raven Tour never hesitated.

Sorry to hear about the robbery. Its a big tourist place and that is the problem. Ripe with opportunities for the thieving minority. Happened to me in Lisbon a few years ago and it is not a nice experience. I hear Madrid, Rome and other capitals in Europe are also hotspots so cycle tourers beware! Luckily cycle touring takes place mostly away from these areas. 99.9% of people are wonderful as you say Dan!

Keep smiling and enjoy the rest of the tour!

Andre Jute

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Re: Which Thorn model is more likely to save your life?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2014, 10:02:23 PM »
I hope you're sorted soon, Dan. That it's a weekend with offices closed must add to your difficulties. Glad to see you're in good cheer though, and being distracted by technicalities I didn't expect you to address until you returned home.

Just as well the thief didn't know what it is, or he might have stolen Andy's Raven as well as your money!

I take your point about it not being much of a choice for you personally between the Nomad and the Raven because of the weight of the water you must carry into the desert (listen to the rolling cadences of the King James Version every time the desert is mentioned!), but for most the choice is probably more marginal, probably often unconsidered, which is why I painted it in such a stark light.

Traveling in armed convoys in Africa in conditions where I often wished for air cover, I learned three correlated truths:

1. For the prepared, it is always easier than you think. Being prepared is the cheapest part of discretion.

2. For the unprepared, it is more dangerous than anyone could possibly think.

3. Then there is the unforeseeable...

Danneaux

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Re: Which Thorn model is more likely to save your life?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2014, 10:11:44 PM »
+1 to your three points above,  Andre. Thanks so much for the good wishes.

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 10:28:31 PM by Danneaux »