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Community => Rohloff Internal Hub Gears => Topic started by: Andre Jute on November 01, 2012, 04:05:56 AM

Title: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on November 01, 2012, 04:05:56 AM
Photo essay:
Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike
Servicing the Rohloff EXT Clickbox
with Phil Waterproof Grease  (http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGRohloffEXTservice.html)

Andre Jute

June 2014 ADDENDUM: OOPS!

Oh, well. Doing the annual gearbox oil change, talking to gawkers, I forgot I was running an experiment to see if the EXT clickbox would go 5000km/3000m (the mandatory main oil service interval) with Phil's Waterproof Grease. So at a fraction under 3000km, without thinking, I cleaned the EXT unit and filled it with fresh Phil's Waterproof Grease, and refitted it.

The Phil's stood up well for 3000km; there was no sign it wouldn't have lasted to 5000km total. Phil anyway claims this grease is waterproof, implication permanently, until contaminated with dirt. The well-engineered parts of the Rohloff EXT clickbox are too close-fitting to let in dirt, though it won't keep out water if submerged, and water would eventually carry in enough dirt to contaminate the grease. Didn't happen to my bike though, so it is merely a theoretical speculation for the consideration of those who routinely ford streams at least to hub height.

I conclude that it is extremely likely that with high quality grease the EXT click box factory-recommended service interval of 500km (five hundred kilometers) is, for my sort of road use, totally over the top. The EXT click box can go 3000km for sure and very likely the full oil service interval of 5000km with a single load of grease.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Danneaux on November 01, 2012, 05:00:01 AM
Another nicely done photo-essay, Andre; thanks!

I do think (hope) you'll find the Phil Wood grease to your liking. It has surely served me well for more than three decades when used alone.

I do believe you'll see the Phil grease includes more "oil" then the Finish Line at the 1000km mark; that is one secret to its lubricity and effectiveness. It becomes essentially a clingy heavyweight oil in bearing tracks and on gear teeth, and remains a medium-viscosity grease inside the dust caps to serve as a barrier to water and dust entry.

I can heartily recommend Phil Tenacious Oil for your inventory as well; it clings exceptionally well and makes a nice, light assembly lube that stays in place well.

All the best,

Dan. (...following along with greatest interest. Ride, Andre, ride! We need you to reach the next 1000km soonest!)
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on November 01, 2012, 06:24:38 AM
Thanks to Jags for the gift of the Phil Waterproof Grease, and a bow too to Dan, who went shopping for it in the States for Jags.

I'm trying to reduce the number of tubes and bottles of over-specialized stuff. I'm reducing them, as a first stage, to:

1. Silsa (?) barrier cream. Rub it on your hands, work with oily components, rinse your hands clean under running water, no soap required. Brill.

2. Phil Waterproof grease. Used as assembly grease for everything, on all mating surfaces and threads, used as packing grease for the only two places on my bike that require it (the Rohloff EXT click box and the vintage Phillips pedals). Replaces Finish Line White Teflon (really good stuff) and Ceramic Grease (not recommended) and Park Assembly Grease (filthy, messy stuff, hate the look, feel and smell of it).

3. Oil of Rohloff, for the chain. But I have an ongoing experiment to do without chain oiling altogether, so this one may fall by the wayside. Oil of Rohloff has a high sticktoit rating and is pretty water-resistant too; I like it. Also very economical because a few drops spread an unbelievable way.

So, if I'm lucky, two tubes in my toolbox, the German barrier cream and Phil Waterproof Grease, or at most one more, the Oil of Rohloff chain lube.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on November 01, 2012, 06:38:52 AM
Great info here Andre.
May I ask about the rear stand you appear to be using for your bike?
It is fixed to the frame?

Many thanks
Matt
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on November 01, 2012, 07:43:30 AM
It's an ESGE stand. It is bolted to a thick, solid steel tab soldered to the non-driveside chainstay (no chain that side, so what is it called?) between the disc brake reinforcement (runs from the chainstay across the mixte rail to the seat stay) and the frame end where all three tubes meet in a reinforced frame end. It works well but a solid, and solidly braced, tab is a prerequisite. I believe there are clamp-on models but you have to be careful to get the right size and not crush the chain stay.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: revelo on November 02, 2012, 12:42:15 AM
I think all that grease is overkill. If you get flats, you'll have to unscrew the ex box to remove the rear wheel, at which point all that grease will collect crud. I don't see any reason to put grease other than in the hollow part of the ex box, the part that goes right over the drive axle. Greasing the bolts might also be wise. The ex box fits so tightly that not much water will get it even without slopping grease everywhere.

Of course, if you never get flats, then maybe this scheme will work. I've pretty much licked the goathead thorn problem myself, but I did get a flat on my last tour by running over an upturned nail.The Schwalbe Mondial has a kelvar belt, but that is mainly for protecting from gashes in the sidewall. A sharp nail (or goathead thorn) will go right through that kelvar belt.

As for the Hebie chainglider, that might work in some conditions, but here in the western United States, there are areas with very fine dust, which collects in a low point in the road. When you cycle through that low point, the dust rises up in a cloud about 2 feet high and coats everything in sight. So unless the Hebie is airtight, it won't work too well in these conditions. I don't think this phenomenon is unique to the western United States either. We don't have very fine dust everywhere, but I would say I run into it an average of a few times a day when biking on dirt roads. Plenty often enough to thoroughly dirty up a chain and everything else on the bike.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on November 02, 2012, 05:22:37 AM
I haven't had a flat in ten years, touch wood. The only time the EXT box is taken off is to be serviced. I don't care if greasing it with Phil is overkill; the point is to reduce all the service intervals on the bike to the one inescapable one, the Rohloff box oil change at 5000km. I already have chains guaranteed to last at least 4500km.

I've just had my Hebie Chainglider open along its entire length after about 3400km, and there was very little inside. Dust can get in but doesn't. My bike takes a fine coat of dust from the roads on the paintwork, but it doesn't get into the Hebie. The truth is that the thing is probably airtight along much of it's length, and the openings are small. I suspect that if you try it you will find not too much dust gets in.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: swc7916 on November 02, 2012, 01:51:56 PM
I think all that grease is overkill. If you get flats, you'll have to unscrew the ex box to remove the rear wheel, at which point all that grease will collect crud. I don't see any reason to put grease other than in the hollow part of the ex box, the part that goes right over the drive axle.

That's my thinking also.  I use Phil Wood grease too, but not so much that it oozes out when I install the clickbox.  (Why is called a clickbox?  No clicking goes on inside it.)
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: jags on November 02, 2012, 02:58:49 PM
Good stuff Andre glad it worked out for you,just thinking that grease looks like the same colour as your bike  ;D ;D so no need to go cleaning it off it would never be noticed.
also i surly  wish you and Dan would make a video of all this TECH stuff you do on your bikes.

cheers
jags.

ps whats the weather like in bandon.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: wheezy on November 02, 2012, 05:23:55 PM
Why is called a clickbox?  No clicking goes on inside it.

This is a good question. Who named it that in the first place? We should be told. It should be "pulley box" or something even sexier, if that's possible.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: revelo on November 02, 2012, 06:14:12 PM
I've just had my Hebie Chainglider open along its entire length after about 3400km, and there was very little inside. Dust can get in but doesn't. My bike takes a fine coat of dust from the roads on the paintwork, but it doesn't get into the Hebie. The truth is that the thing is probably airtight along much of it's length, and the openings are small. I suspect that if you try it you will find not too much dust gets in.
Andre Jute

I'm going to wait to hear about your experiences or perhaps those of Danneaux, who travels on dirt roads in the same area as me. I have several objections to the chainglider right now:

1) Andy Blance doesn't use one and I'm trying to follow his lead as much as possible where bikes are concerned. I'm pretty new to bikes and so far, doing things the way he recommends has worked out very well for me.
2) I'm not aware of any other dirt-road expedition bike tourists, besides Andy Blance, who use the Hebie.
3) It doesn't support a 40 tooth chainwheel. That's okay for now, since I'm running 42/17, and it does support that combination, but I'm planning to go to 40/17 in the future. Of course, I could go to 38/16, since Hebie does support that.
4) More hassle removing the rear wheel to fix flats.
5) Reports of damage to Rohloff hub shell, though apparently that issue has been fixed or was a user error due to incorrect installation.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Danneaux on November 02, 2012, 06:44:51 PM
Hi Frank!

While I find the benefits of the Hebie Chainglider immensely appealing, I am holding off for now for many of the same reasons as yourself. Among them:

= I'm running a 40x17, a combination that is not supported, as you've noted. To do so, I would need to change gearing. While I would like a lower low, I am also committed to keeping to the Rohloff-recommended combos at least through the "break-in period" and likely longer.

= It would add to the hassle of removing the rear wheel, but not enough to be a deterrent for me. I'm finding rear wheel removals to be exceptionally quick and easy with the Rohloff compared to any of my derailleur bikes.

= Lingering concerns about clearances including ground clearance.

= Yes, I do travel in areas of deep, talc-like alkali dust. It goes everywhere, even inside the gasketed openings of car taillight housings. I think the Hebie would shield the chain from the bulk of it...but any that got inside would make for a terrible mess, as Andre has noted. At this point, without personal experience, I would be uncomfortable leaving the case attached for long periods in such an environment without checking to see what was going on inside.

I'd love a Chainglider for those rides during the year when I am not in that sort of environment (i.e. in the forest), but have at this point decided to go with a bash guard to protect the chainring from impact damage (and my leg from chain oil) on my desert trips and leave the chain open where it will get dirty but it is readily accessible for cleaning and re-oiling (which I do daily and sometimes more often in that environment).  I know Pete (Il Padrone) has purchased one and I was eager to see how it worked for him, since Australian bull-dust is similar to what we encounter, Frank. However, the last I heard he was having some clearance issues between the Chaiglider and his alloy front 'ring. I was advised by Robin Thorn to use a thinner, stainless ring to avoid clearance problems with the Chainglider.

So, in summary: I'm immensely attracted to the actual and potential benefits of the Chainglider, but given its price and possibilities for problems where I would use it, have decided to be a gentleman and let others go first.  :D I may well get one yet...but likely not for use in the ultrafine desert dust of the Great Basin.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on November 02, 2012, 06:58:02 PM
Hi folks.
If I fit a Chainglider to the Thorn with S&S couplings I hope to buy, will it hinder the un-coupling?
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on November 02, 2012, 11:53:19 PM
Good stuff Andre glad it worked out for you,just thinking that grease looks like the same colour as your bike  ;D ;D so no need to go cleaning it off it would never be noticed.
also i surly  wish you and Dan would make a video of all this TECH stuff you do on your bikes.

cheers
jags.

ps whats the weather like in bandon.

I dunno about a video. I already have enough problems holding the component in one hand, the still camera in the other, and the tube of grease in my teeth. I suppose I could hold the movie camera in my toes, but it's a bit cold outside for taking off your shoes and socks.

Seriously, I get brassed off by these videos, which I have to stop and rewind several times. I want these guys instead to take still photographs and go to the trouble of writing out lucid instructions.

The weather in Bandon is cold but (presently) clear, though intermittent showers have fallen all day. We should in theory at least, be a degree or two warmer than Dublin, but it doesn't feel like it.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: jags on November 03, 2012, 12:30:30 AM
A man of your talent a wee video would be no problem.
no worries Andre   your photo's are always welcome even though i'm not the owner of a rohloff or dynamo  ::) never mind i enjoy your posts way above my head  way to technical for me  ;D ;D.

yeah very cold up this end but i've my sherpa ready for a good spin in the morn  ;)
nite nite....
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on November 03, 2012, 03:21:18 AM
Hi folks.
If I fit a Chainglider to the Thorn with S&S couplings I hope to buy, will it hinder the un-coupling?

Depends where and how the bike folds. If the S&S couplings are arranged so that you have to take off the chain to pack the bike, you will certainly have to take off a Chainglider too.

Pulling off a Chainglider rear end to inspect the cog or drop a wheel, despite what you might read here from people looking for a reason not to buy one, is no big deal, nor is popping open a cover length to inspect the chain, nor is opening the chainring cover to inspect the chainring. But taking a Chainglider off altogether is not advised until you've learned the tricky contortion to get it back on with all parts on the right side of the chain and chainring; this is because the matching, plug-together parts change direction at the front centre of the chainring, under the add-on brace there.

On the whole, if I had an S&S bike that split or folded in a line across the chain, I'd not fit a Hebie Chainglider. What's the point if you will get your hands dirty anyway?

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: martinf on November 03, 2012, 05:43:00 AM
But taking a Chainglider off altogether is not advised until you've learned the tricky contortion to get it back on with all parts on the right side of the chain and chainring; this is because the matching, plug-together parts change direction at the front centre of the chainring, under the add-on brace there.

I didn't find taking the Chainglider off and putting it back on again difficult, the parts are marked where necessary to help correct assembly. Mine doesn't have the add-on brace at the front centre of the chainring, so maybe the recent models are slightly different. Just as well, as there is very little clearance between Chainglider and the old TA Cyclotouriste crank on my 5-speed bike. This won't be an issue on my future Thorn.

If doing this in the field (to inspect for dust ?) without adjusting chain tension, count the "bars" showing before disassembly and reassemble the same to avoid having to adjust the Chainglider.

Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on November 03, 2012, 05:51:02 AM
Martin, the brace I refer to is the small clip that holds the extreme forward end of the Chainglider together. -- AJ
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Danneaux on November 04, 2012, 11:08:41 PM
Hi Andre!

Though you did a wonderful job cleaning the Finish Line grease from the mating surfaces and engagement well of your click-box before applying Phil grease, I fear some of the FinishLine may have made its way into the interior.

I've had great success with Phil Wood grease for well over 30 years, but I've always used it alone, after removing all traces of any preceding lube (easy to do when the component is a hub, pedals, BB, or headset). I'm concerned about how well the Phil grease might lubricate or protect if it mixes with any remaining traces of Finish Line that remains in the click-box housing. Sometimes greases mix just fine and may well in this case; after all, the Finish Line has a high Teflon content and Teflon/PTFE is pretty much inert (it is the carrier that can sometimes cause problems; the Finish Line uses a synthetic base while Phil is petroleum-based). Occasionally, when different types of grease mix, the sum is less than the parts -- the mix can become runny and migrate, or it can become gummy and fail to protect. I have seen some Very Bad Things happen when automotive greases are mixed, so I have those vivid memories in mind. A few of the potential problems are outlined here: http://www.mobilindustrial.com/IND/English/Files/tt-grease-compatibility.pdf

Methodologically, the trial would be more valid if only Phil grease were used, but my main concern is how the mix will work for you.

I don't want to inject even a hint of unease in your trial, but I've heavily endorsed Phil grease alone and I'd feel terrible if the mix of greases somehow failed to adequately protect or lubricate your lovely Kranich by the time of your next inspection in 1000km. Might it be worth inspecting at an earlier interval to make sure all is well? Alternatively, might it be possible to disassemble the click-box for cleaning before a relube with Phil grease alone?

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: il padrone on November 05, 2012, 12:24:09 PM
Martin, the brace I refer to is the small clip that holds the extreme forward end of the Chainglider together. -- AJ

There must be some model variation or a redesign. Mine, bought a few months ago, has no such clip or brace at the front, just a notch and tab like the other fastening points.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on November 05, 2012, 07:18:34 PM
There must be some model variation or a redesign. Mine, bought a few months ago, has no such clip or brace at the front, just a notch and tab like the other fastening points.

Yes, http://www.hebie.de/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/2012/CG_flyer_10x10_2012_en.pdf shows the front tab, previously a loose piece about two inches long, that clipped on and then slid to click into the notch with an internal ridge, has now been integrated. From the same source, it seems to me likely that the Chainglider has been further simplified.

Does yours still have a change of direction between top and bottom runs of which is the inner and which the outer part? (Same question to you, Martin, if you please.) On mine at the top run, the section nearest the bike clips into the outer section, whereas on the bottom rung the section nearer the bike is wider and the outside piece clips into it. It is this change of direction, at the chainwheel covers, which makes fitting the Chainglider, in my model anyway, a bit tricky.

The new version seems much easier to fit.

I'm not likely to upgrade, as my Chainglider, which has already lasted longer than any other chaincase I ever had, seems good for many years more.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on November 05, 2012, 07:47:50 PM
Hi Andre!

Though you did a wonderful job cleaning the Finish Line grease from the mating surfaces and engagement well of your click-box before applying Phil grease, I fear some of the FinishLine may have made its way into the interior.

I've had great success with Phil Wood grease for well over 30 years, but I've always used it alone, after removing all traces of any preceding lube (easy to do when the component is a hub, pedals, BB, or headset). I'm concerned about how well the Phil grease might lubricate or protect if it mixes with any remaining traces of Finish Line that remains in the click-box housing. Sometimes greases mix just fine and may well in this case; after all, the Finish Line has a high Teflon content and Teflon/PTFE is pretty much inert (it is the carrier that can sometimes cause problems; the Finish Line uses a synthetic base while Phil is petroleum-based). Occasionally, when different types of grease mix, the sum is less than the parts -- the mix can become runny and migrate, or it can become gummy and fail to protect. I have seen some Very Bad Things happen when automotive greases are mixed, so I have those vivid memories in mind. A few of the potential problems are outlined here: http://www.mobilindustrial.com/IND/English/Files/tt-grease-compatibility.pdf

Methodologically, the trial would be more valid if only Phil grease were used, but my main concern is how the mix will work for you.

I don't want to inject even a hint of unease in your trial, but I've heavily endorsed Phil grease alone and I'd feel terrible if the mix of greases somehow failed to adequately protect or lubricate your lovely Kranich by the time of your next inspection in 1000km. Might it be worth inspecting at an earlier interval to make sure all is well? Alternatively, might it be possible to disassemble the click-box for cleaning before a relube with Phil grease alone?

All the best,

Dan.

Thanks for the interesting speculation, Dan. It appears my first, longish, reply went missing. The short version is:

I'm not concerned at all. Those parts are so closefitting, if any grease migrated, it would be only trace elements. Secondly, there is no evidence anywhere else on my bike that the white teflon fights any other grease or reacts adversely with it. Thirdly, I'm not interested in theoretically "valid" tests. My parameter of validity is what the average cyclist in my position can achieve.

To clean out the clickbox completely for a "valid test" by your standards, one would have to disassemble it down to the last screw. Are you aware that once the screws fixing the cables are undone, new cables must be cut and fitted? This is described as an "odious job" by no less an authority than Chalo Colina who's been into Rohloffs longer than the lot of us together, besides his other achievements as a designer and machinist and bike mechanic. Your average cyclist would be well advised not to take his clickbox apart just to see what's in it, or on the offchance that some grease migrated into it, because chances are he'll never get it together again. A click box with cables cut to length fitted is about a hundred smackers or thereabouts in everyone's currencies. It just isn't economical to spend hours, and maybe several sets of ruined cables (even Chalo puts spares ready to hand when he does this job!), and the risk of maybe a botched job that doesn't work as well as what he has now, for Joe Blow to "save" a component that costs 40 bucks.

You buy an expensive hub gearbox like the Rohloff because it is unbreakable. To obsess about mickey mouse stuff like migrating grease entirely defeats the purpose and the concept.

The entire concept of a low maintenance bike, to the lengths I've long since taken it, is antipathetic to and totally out of sympathy with the roadie obsession of cleaning the drivetrain with cotton buds after every ride to make expensive but shortlived transmission components live a few hundred miles longer. My tests are aimed at a ride and forget bike. I've paid a lot for it in time, money and weight, so it would be both counterproductive and uneconomic for me to spend as much as five minutes on the 0.00000...00001 chance that three years or thirty down the line grease contamination will leave a small stain inside a forty Euro clickbox.

All the same, a fabulous speculation. Thanks for the intellectual massage, Dan.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Danneaux on November 05, 2012, 08:00:45 PM
Quote
The entire concept of a low maintenance bike, to the lengths I've long since taken it, is antipathetic to and totally out of sympathy with the roadie obsession of cleaning the drivetrain with cotton buds after every ride to make expensive but shortlived transmission components live a few hundred miles longer.
Andre!  :o You've got to stop with the Remote Viewing, or get an even sharper lens...you missed seeing me floss between the freewheel/cassette cogs and up inside the rear derailleur cage on my non-Rohloff bikes! :o ::) :D ;D

So, no worries, then. I hesitated a long time before posting but knowing how much you love your bicycle, I didn't want even the smallest risk of harm to befall it, so it seemed best to raise the possibility, however remote. Still, hard to break the lifelong habits of a maintenance-obsessive roadie and ex-Honda car service technician, so I'll keep my greases unmixed. Vive le difference!

All the best,

Dan. (...very much looking forward to the next Progress Report; ride, Andre, ride, so we'll get there soonest!)
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on November 05, 2012, 08:33:49 PM
An interesting speculation, all the same, Dan.

But the smartest thing you said about Phil was that it is just as well I have a green bike, so no chance of Phil staining it.

Have you niffed the Phil, Jags? Best-smelling grease I ever had, and that includes Brylcreem.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: il padrone on November 05, 2012, 10:48:56 PM
Does yours still have a change of direction between top and bottom runs of which is the inner and which the outer part? (Same question to you, Martin, if you please.) On mine at the top run, the section nearest the bike clips into the outer section, whereas on the bottom rung the section nearer the bike is wider and the outside piece clips into it.

Yes, mine still has this swapping in the interlock of the pieces. I don't really find it too much of a hassle. Yet to get it back to use with the Surly steel ring though.


Re. the EX box and cables. I've set up two Rohloff hubs and connected the cables to EX boxes for each. Yes, it's a job I have no desire to repeat. I made the same mistake each time (forgetting to fit in the barrel-adjusters after cutting the cable to length)  ::) then had to refit the cable - something that you are not supposed to be able to do. Winding the cables around the barrel was seriously frustrating and with my wife's at the end I had the cables reversed in the whole run. To this day she still has top gear as 1 and bottom is 14 :P :D

I do not look forward to repeating the experience, especially out on the roadside. Happily the cables have given no sign of any problems.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: jags on November 05, 2012, 11:50:12 PM
Julian still trying to figure out were to use it but yeah it does smell real nice  ;D ;D
my headset http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/stronglight-a9-1-inch-english-threaded-cartridge-bearing-headset-prod17409/?sessionid=aa84eda4f99164a72c5cc63c6ef2801e5b2477e3 i put in last year started to rock so i took the lot out but it sealed bearings so a waste of time using the phil grease there ::).

btw is there a better more reliably headset than that one. ;)

you two guys are class i could listen to you all night  ;D
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: il padrone on November 06, 2012, 12:19:56 AM
btw is there a better more reliably headset than that one. ;)


I've had a headset similar to this one since about 1995

(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Shimano-Deore-XT-Cartridge-Headset-11-8-Threaded-HP-M471-Alloy-NEW-Rare-Item-/00/s/MTAyNFg2ODI=/$(KGrHqEOKn!E5tQrI1CBBOkFupKiBg~~60_12.JPG)

Mine is not the XT but a lower model, probably LX. It is 1 1/8" and uses the same cartridge bearings, that I've only needed to change once in 17 years. God knows how many kms that headset has done. It's still in use on my son's bike with the same frame.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on November 06, 2012, 03:21:40 AM
That Stronglight A9 is supposed to be the cat's whiskers. Never had one though.

I have a Cane Creek S6, branded X-ACT, made by Cane Creek for Humpert in Germany, their model A118A. Fabulous quality but total overkill, of course. Humpert is here: http://www.humpert.com/de/bikeparts/suche/produktsuche/artikelnummer/?begriff=headset

Headset in German is Steuerlager or Steering Bearing.

I always check the Humpert catalogue first when I need a component because they have the best components made and don't charge boutique prices. Their threaded version of the same thing is at http://www.humpert.com/de/bikeparts/marke/produktart/einsatzbereich/produkt/?marke=ergotec&produktart=6&einsatzbereich=10&produkt=160
but I expect you want the 1" headset, which is the A101G in ali
http://www.humpert.com/de/bikeparts/marke/produktart/einsatzbereich/produkt/?marke=ergotec&produktart=6&einsatzbereich=10&produkt=159
or this one in steel (chromed)
http://www.humpert.com/de/bikeparts/marke/produktart/einsatzbereich/produkt/?marke=ergotec&produktart=6&einsatzbereich=10&produkt=72

I hope that what I'm suggesting here isn't a copy of the Stronglight A9 that Tange (who made the A9 for Stronglight) made for Humpert, because then you'll curse me.

Andre Jute

PS I see this at CRC, which is just up the road from you, and doesn't charge for delivery to the Republic. http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=39820
And Wiggle, which also delivers free, has the classic Dia Compe rebuildable steel headset that I thought was dead and buried: http://www.wiggle.co.uk/dia-compe-gran-compe-se-threaded-headset/ But down the page they brought it back in gold too, how vulgar. Wiggle also has the Token with needle bearings http://www.wiggle.co.uk/token-tk727cn-alloy-threaded-headset/
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Danneaux on November 06, 2012, 05:12:35 AM
I *think* jags is looking for a 1-1/8" headset for his Sherpa, but I'm not sure. He'll tell us soon enough.  ;)
Quote
That Stronglight A9 is supposed to be the cat's whiskers. Never had one though.
For 1" threaded headsets, they're long-lived -- I have over 40,000 miles on three of them, but they are unsealed and have wide cup clearances, allowing for lossy lubrication. They should be used with mudguards for best protection against water and dirt. They're not very well-finished, and are below Stronglight's usual execution.

My favorite by far is the old Stronglight Delta. It is the A9 with tight tolerances, much better machining, polishing, and anodizing, with o-ring seals and uses the same replaceable tapered roller-bearings and tapered races as the A-9. In my opinion, it is one of the most beautiful headsets ever produced and is a study in sturdy minimalism. Mine has gone well over 28,000mi on my 1983/84 Centurion Pro Tour 15. Some nice catalog photos of them from back in the day are here: http://www.bikepro.com/products/headsets/strong_hst.html Tange made a Roller2000 with very nicely finished alu cups modeled after their Falcon/Levin series, but with tapered roller-bearings. I installed one in my father's bicycle in the mid-1980s and its still there, good as new.

My other favorite dated from the very early 1980s, the Galli Supercriterium (produced in cooperation with Stronglight) fitted to my 1980 Centurion ProTour, also with tapered rollerbearings but with Ti races and unusual stepped labyrinth shields, doing fine at 35,000mi.

A recent favorite is the Saavedra, also with TRB, from Argentina. It resides happily on the tandem where it gets really rough service and soaks it all up happily. For photos, see: http://www.tearsforgears.com/2005/11/saavedra-headset.html

In my experience, for 1" threaded headsets, tapered rollerbearings are *it* for longevity and very much maintenance-free. Since they're also completely rebuildable in the same cups, well, they'll just go on indefinitely. I have a half-dozen pairs of Stronglight TRBs and races in backstock for rebuilds, but have never needed a single one. Fill 'em with Phil Waterproof grease and you're set for a very long time.

The old Onza Mongo II was in there as well. Miche make the Primato, a Delta lookalike with TRBs. See: http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=29717&category=3944

Roller-bearing headsets feel much different from ball- or cartridge bearings. They have a much greater bearing contact area (cylinder-lines instead of ball-points) and more friction as a result. They do wonders at quelling shimmy on bikes where this is a problem. Unfortunately, they're nearly a dead product, replaced by pre-assembled cartridge bearings with seals.

Dia-Compe/Dia-Tech offer a hybrid in 1-1/8: The Melon A-headset, which has a cartridge bearing in the top and hugely oversized tapered rollers in the lower bearing case. It is designed for dirt jump, freeride, and downhill use. See: http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/dia-compe-melon-a-headset-1-1-8-black-id19842.html

Shimano did a very nice job with their introduction of sealed cartridge bearings set on selform seats. These made the 'sets essentially self-centering, which solved a myriad of alignment issues and greatly extended life. The FSA Orbit X IIs fitted by Thorn are essentially rebranded Cane Creeks, even to the licensed split-cone alignment ring. What can kill them in a moment is over-tightening the preload screw on the top cap. My preferred method is to set them up loose, then rock the bike back and forth with the front brake locked, taking up a small amount of play at a time until no excess play is felt, then elevating the front wheel and bars and letting gravity determine if the final adjustment has enough slack. Get them too loose, and the bearing cartridges eat away at the cups (you'd think people would feel it, but not so much when crashing through obstacles off-road). I laid-in a spare for the Nomad; only USD$28 postpaid NIB from eBay. To keep this thread-relevant, I'll add I always coat the cartridge bearings and cup-inners with a light coating of grease for extra sealing, as FSA advise...Phil waterproof, of course.  One more step to the Zero-Maintenance Bike.

Hope this helps,

Dan. (...whose head sets on his neck)
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on November 06, 2012, 07:42:23 AM
I *think* jags is looking for a 1-1/8" headset for his Sherpa, but I'm not sure. He'll tell us soon enough.  ;)

He has told us. It says 1" in his reference and on the SJS site if you follow the URL.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: jags on November 06, 2012, 10:48:14 AM
Excellent lads thanks ,i guess i might need a new set of bearings but there not  completly gone only a very small bit of play in them  but thanks for all the links Andre.
Dan its the Raleigh sorry i should have said that.. ::)
thanks lads.

jags
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on June 05, 2014, 12:45:31 PM
Photo essay:
Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike
Servicing the Rohloff EXT Clickbox
with Phil Waterproof Grease  (http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGRohloffEXTservice.html)

Oh, well. Doing the annual gearbox oil change, talking to gawkers, I forgot I was running an experiment to see if the EXT clickbox would go 5000km/3000m (the mandatory main oil service interval) with Phil's Waterproof Grease. So at a fraction under 3000km, without thinking, I cleaned the EXT unit and filled it with fresh Phil's Waterproof Grease, and refitted it.

The Phil's stood up well for 3000km; there was no sign it wouldn't have lasted to 5000km total. Phil anyway claims this grease is waterproof, implication permanently, until contaminated with dirt. The well-engineered parts of the Rohloff EXT clickbox are too close-fitting to let in dirt, though it won't keep out water if submerged, and water would eventually carry in enough dirt to contaminate the grease. Didn't happen to my bike though, so it is merely a theoretical speculation for the consideration of those who routinely ford streams at least to hub height.

I conclude that it is extremely likely that with high quality grease the EXT click box factory-recommended service interval of 500km (five hundred kilometers) is, for my sort of road use, totally over the top. The EXT click box can go 3000km for sure and very likely the full oil service interval of 5000km with a single load of grease.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Danneaux on June 05, 2014, 03:52:01 PM
Great follow up report,  Andre; thanks.

Having used Phil Wood waterproof grease happily for 35 years, I can confirm it is waterproof to military specs. However,  even it will eventually saponify with continued submersion; the color is the clever clue: It will turn from its usual blackish - green to a minty hue closer to the Celeste - like color of the tube. This is the indication it needs changing.  Old tubes of the stuff get blacker and can even separate but can be kneaded in the tube to restore usefulness prior to application.

My Nomad's ext shift - box is still humming along happily after removing the cover and pumping it full of this grease some time ago. It hasn't run out, but nicely forms a new seal against the backing plate whenever it is reattached.

All the best, 

Dan. (...who still thinks Phil Waterproof is the only grease that smells good enough to eat)
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: il padrone on June 06, 2014, 02:27:02 PM
Umm....

I have checked and regreased the EX box about twice, in 20,000kms. Maybe three times  :-X

I last checked it at around 17,000kms and the grease (Finish Line teflon) was still white and clean. I don't foresee any problems - gear shift is smooth and light, nothing looked at all of concern.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: mickeg on June 29, 2014, 02:29:22 PM
Photo of EX box in dusty conditions.  I suspect in this case the oil from the Rohloff breather is the reason that the whole area is a dust magnet.

Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: jags on June 29, 2014, 02:39:14 PM
why is that called an xbox ::)
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: energyman on June 29, 2014, 07:21:46 PM
Probably to annoy the other people !
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: jags on June 29, 2014, 07:31:02 PM
 ;D ;D probably.
i could never figure out what the hell rohloff lads were on about there xbox,
i thought it was one of those tv games ::)
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on June 29, 2014, 10:05:37 PM
It's an "EXT clickbox". EXT stands for External, to distinguish it from the other Rohloff system, called "internal", where to save a few grams, and make exposed cable for old roadies to feel comfortable with, your ekshul cable is led right inside the gearbox.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: sd on August 14, 2014, 11:18:18 AM
Does this apply to the other gear click box the one thats above? I have never heard that you need to grease them. Can't remember ever seeing it on Rohloff service book/videos
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on August 14, 2014, 08:09:24 PM
Does this apply to the other gear click box the one thats above? I have never heard that you need to grease them. Can't remember ever seeing it on Rohloff service book/videos

It applies only to the EXT Rohloff setup, where both cables run sheathed all the way to the gearbox and are terminated in a little black box that attaches to the gearbox with a thumbscrew. If your setup doesn't look like the last (reassembled) photo at
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGRohloffEXTservice.html (http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGRohloffEXTservice.html)
you don't have the EXT box, you have bare wires covering the last section to the gearbox.

Sure, it's in the manual.

If you mean instead the rotary gearshift on the handlebars, it doesn't get greased as far as I know.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on April 05, 2015, 11:56:13 PM
Phil Waterproof Grease in EXT klickbox at 500km. The grease seems good, so I closed it and will inspect it again at 1000km. If your Rohloff box is fairly new, you should squirt some grease in here at 500km intervals just like it says in the official handbook. I'm running an experiment to see what service interval is really necessary. (See above where I carelessly cleaned out grease still good at 3000km, which is how come the experiment starts over from scratch.)

(http://www.coolmainpress.com/miscimage/andre_jute_kranich_ext_klickbox_long_serviice_experiment_3500km_800pxw.jpg)

With thanks to Anto for the gift of the Phil, and to Dan for handling postal arrangements.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Danneaux on April 06, 2015, 12:29:06 AM
Hi Andre!

A small point, but it is Phil Waterproof Grease and Phil Tenacious Oil. The distinction is important because they are intended for vastly different purposes and have different characteristics and viscosities and behaviors in use.

There's a lot of whitish lube residue in the photo, most likely the result of your past Finish Line White Teflon grease still in the box. I recall you did not clean it out of the interior when you added the Phil. If it were all Phil the residue would be dark green only, as it is in the tube. What you have is a mix of the two. The Phil tends to become a mixture of oil and grease over time, and this can and will mix with other lubricants if they are present when Phil Waterproof Grease is employed.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on April 06, 2015, 01:17:05 AM
A small point, but it is Phil Waterproof Grease and Phil Tenacious Oil. The distinction is important because they are intended for vastly different purposes and have different characteristics and viscosities and behaviors in use.

Thanks, Dan. I made the correction. Shoulda checked the tube!

EDIT: I take up Dan's other point below.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: mickeg on April 06, 2015, 03:18:09 AM
My Phil grease is dark green in color, did they change the formula?  Mine is decades old, thus I assume yours is newer.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on April 06, 2015, 03:27:21 AM
My Phil grease is dark green in color, did they change the formula?  Mine is decades old, thus I assume yours is newer.

Mine is green too when it is new. That's not new grease in the photo. It's six months or more old and it seems likely there is an element of Finish Line White Teflon in it; see the next post.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Andre Jute on April 06, 2015, 07:38:33 AM
According to a letter in my mailbox, Phil's waterproof grease in use remains green. It therefore looks like my Phil is being mixed with Finish Line White Teflon, the lube I used before, hiding in the unused, invisible spaces in the klickbox, as Dan says.

Nothing bad has happened because of the mixture — indeed, it has proven viable as a lube for 3000km and I expected it to march on to the desired 5000km, thus equalizing the two Rohloff service intervals of the hub oil change and the klickbox service. But it isn't the Phil Waterproof Grease experiment originally announced, it's just a grease experiment...

I'm not planning on cleaning out the klickbox and starting over; that would drag on too long. With the state of my health, and the state of Irish weather, the annual oil change intervals on my Rohloff fall at less than 5000km, and it is convenient to service the klickbox at the same time. I've already proved that the klickbox can go 3000km with a single shot of grease, and that's good enough for me.

I'm therefore calling a halt to the experiment. Perhaps someone who does greater mileage wants to see if the klickbox makes 5000km between services.

Thanks to all who contributed to the experiment. Particular thanks to Anto for the gift of the Phil's Waterproof Grease, and to Dan for arranging the posting from the States.
Title: Re: Towards a Zero Maintenance Bike: Servicing my Rohloff w/ Phil Waterproof Grease
Post by: Danneaux on April 06, 2015, 07:41:48 AM
Quote
Thanks to all who contributed to the experiment. Particular thanks to Anto for the gift of the Phil's Waterproof Grease, and to Dan for arranging the posting from the States.
You're welcome. Andre. It has been interesting to see the experiment and it points up the importance of lubing the external shift-box, a step too often neglected. Any sort of lube there, as Rohloff advise, will surely extend its service life.

All the best,

Dan.