Author Topic: Chain life with rohloff (and a bit of chainglider stuff too)  (Read 17189 times)

David Simpson

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2014, 10:40:42 PM »
Sammy, I believe that you have a yellow Nomad, as I do. (I also am using 38x16.) In order to fit the Chainglider, I had to cut away the part that is closest to the seat stay. Otherwise the seat stay would push the Chainglider to the left of the bike and cause a lot of friction (and noise) between the chain and the Chainglider. It is quite easy to trim the Chainglider with a small knife.

I don't remember shortening the length of the Chainglider. I might have.

It took a bit of fiddling around to get it to fit nicely with a minimum amount of friction, but I have had it now for about a year, and I don't notice it anymore when I am riding (aside from a small amount of noise). I definitely recommend installing it, especially if you ride in the rain.

- Dave

geocycle

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2014, 08:26:13 AM »
Yes, you may have to trim the wide part near the seat stay. Julk also has commented on this with his nomad and I'm having an issue with my RST frame.  I think the chainglider is the best solution at the moment but it's not perfect. To be fair it's asking a lot given the number of variables involved.
 

Slammin Sammy

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2014, 02:24:07 PM »
I must admit I'd given up on getting the CG to work, but I will have another look at it tomorrow.

As much as I like the idea of a clean chain-side, I'm not sure I will tolerate ANY noise, but I really should give it a proper trial (as long as there's no damage to my hub).

Thanks!

martinf

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2014, 03:30:27 PM »
Chainglider waiting for fitting with new drivetrain. What chainring do you use and do you notice any drag from friction with the Chainglider?

On the 5-speed hub geared bike, non-optimal components that were already fairly well used before fitting a Chainglider:

- TA Cyclotouriste 1/8" 44T ring slightly too thick for Chainglider.
- Sturmey-Archer 1/8" 21T sprocket, probably slightly too thick for Chainglider.
- Sedis (SRAM predecessor) 1/8" chain.

At first, I noticed rubbing noises. But no perceptible slowing, and I no longer notice any noise, either it has reduced with use or I have simply got used to it.

On my Thorn Raven, new components chosen to fit the Rohloff-specific Chainglider:

- Surly stainless steel 3/32" 38T ring, narrower than any aluminium rings I had.
- Rohloff 3/32" 16T sprocket.
- SRAM PC890 3/32" chain (I didn't buy a specific KMC chain as I had several SRAM spare from when I used to run several derailleur bikes, which needed frequent chain replacements).

Chaingliders seem to work quite well in my area (South Brittany) and with my type of riding - occasional muddy paths, coastal tracks with sand, wet-weather commuting. Not tried Chaingliders in dry, dusty conditions.

I've only had Chaingliders for 2 years, not done any long trips with one yet, so I don't consider them proven, only promising. But promising enough to fit on 3 of my bikes.

 

Andre Jute

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2014, 09:52:22 PM »
I must admit I'd given up on getting the CG to work, but I will have another look at it tomorrow.

It seems to me in the light of my experience of several years now that if a Chainglider doesn't work on a Rohloff-equipped bike, the owner has fitted the wrong model of front end (there's a long and a short version to suit various chainstay lengths, and several versions in each length to fit very specific chainring tooth counts) or rear end (there's a specific Rohloff back end it isn't optional, it is essential). It is also important not to try to stuff too wide a chain or chainring into it. You're supposed to cut (especially the long version of) the Chainglider front end to length; that cannot be a criticism; it's a design feature to make it fit many bikes.

Beyond that you can go wrong by fitting it too tight, so the chain drags or (theoretically at least) too loose but this last problem is one of patience: you have to move the notches that lock the thing together in or out one notch at a time until the Chainglider operates silently, litterally by gliding across either the lube or the air inside -- its like magic once you have the thing fitted right..

As much as I like the idea of a clean chain-side, I'm not sure I will tolerate ANY noise, but I really should give it a proper trial

A properly fitted Chainglider makes no noise you will hear over general road noise. You know that sighing noise a Rohloff makes in gears 5-6-7 when it is new, that becomes less obtrusive as it runs in? That's ten times as loud on a run-in Rohloff box as a well-fitted Chainglider. If your Chainglider is audible over the sound of your tyres, you didn't fit it right. Man, I'm maniacal about noise, and I'm happy to stamp the Chainglider "Approved as silent". On the solid white stripe on a smooth road, useful to kill the relative "roar" of the Big Apples (in truth not very loud tyres), my bike, complete with Chainglider, glides like a phantom, zero noise. The four top parameters that persuaded me to spend BMW money on my current everyday bike were low stepover without sacrificing stiffness, steel, lugs (no welding!), utter silence.

(as long as there's no damage to my hub).

This is ancient, ancient street corner gossip being thrown up again and again and again by people who don't pay attention the first ten times they are told. It's been years since Hebie launched the Rohloff-specific rear end for the Chainglider (and equivalents dedicated to several other popular hub gearboxes as well). If a Rohloff pilote damages his hub by fitting the wrong rear end for his Chainglider, he has no one to blame but himself. But the Chainglider damaging a Rohloff hub isn't even a remote possibility, and hasn't been for several year, for cyclists with their brains in gear.

Check your Chainglider rear end against the photos on the Hebie netsite to ensure you have a Rohloff rear end.

***

If you don't want the Chainglider because chain-cleaning is your thinking time, or you think only sissies have chain cases, or you don't like the charcoal grey it comes in, or any other aesthetic reason, or plain prejudice, fine. That's a matter of taste. But I sigh when hear technical objections to the Chainglider like noise or damage to particular hubs. The thing, given only that you bought the correct subcomponent specifications for your bike and fitted it right, just plain works, fit and forget.

***

All that said, a consideration when fitting a Chainglider to a few particular Thorn models (type and size to be determined in each case -- it may be that all the guys who reported this here have the same size rear triangle) is the possibility that the Chainglider may intersect slightly with the particular geometry of that Thorn frame, and rub paint off the seat stay. But that has been solved by several forum members shaving the Chainglider in the right place with their pocket knives...

***

All in all, I think a properly fitted Chainglider is one of those landmark components that everyone should experience at least once in a lifetime.

il padrone

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2014, 12:06:22 PM »
Sammy, I believe that you have a yellow Nomad, as I do. (I also am using 38x16.) In order to fit the Chainglider, I had to cut away the part that is closest to the seat stay. Otherwise the seat stay would push the Chainglider to the left of the bike and cause a lot of friction (and noise) between the chain and the Chainglider.

I also have a yellow Nomad Mk2, running 42-17. I fitted the Chainglider and had no such problems. The rear wheel end all fitted fine. My chainring (Thorn double-sided) caused rubbng and friction on the Chainglider as the Thorn ring is extra thick. I rode it for about 3-4 kms on a ride and had to stop and remove it as I would have burned out quick smart.  A bit of the anodising on the ring was rubbed off. When this ring is worn out I have a Surly SS ring, which is a good bit thinner, to replace it. I just want to be sure the Surly ring does not cause drag. Seems that it is fine by Andre's account.

Slammin Sammy

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2014, 03:13:09 PM »
It seems to me in the light of my experience of several years now that if a Chainglider doesn't work on a Rohloff-equipped bike, the owner has fitted the wrong model of front end (there's a long and a short version.

<snip>

This is ancient, ancient street corner gossip being thrown up again and again and again by people who don't pay attention the first ten times they are told. It's been years since Hebie launched the Rohloff-specific rear end for the Chainglider (and equivalents dedicated to several other popular hub gearboxes as well). If a Rohloff pilote damages his hub by fitting the wrong rear end for his Chainglider, he has no one to blame but himself. But the Chainglider damaging a Rohloff hub isn't even a remote possibility, and hasn't been for several year, for cyclists with their brains in gear.

Check your Chainglider rear end against the photos on the Hebie netsite to ensure you have a Rohloff rear end.

I have checked my CG and note it very clearly says 350R Speedhub on the inside. My front is also very definitely the correct part. I'm using a Thorn chainring (black), and it does rub. But what really concerns me is the rear rubbing on the hub. It does rub - I have (slightly) marked the hub case already.

I have shortened the "arms" of the CG because the rear wouldn't fit on at all. At Andre's urging, I will continue to play with the setup to try and achieve nirvana, and I have ordered one for my wife's Raven (38-17), so will get a good opportunity to confirm the fitment.

(My wife habitually dismounts on the right-hand side. She claims it feels more natural to her. Of course, she often gets grease on her leg! She's right-handed. Has anyone else had this issue?)

John Saxby

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2014, 04:36:41 PM »
Sam, the CG should be no problem on your wife's Raven.  I've lost track of the references, but the "chain life with rohloff" seems to have morphed into a CG discussion--they're related, obviously--but I recall Matt's queries about fitting CG's to Ravens on another thread, and there's a fair amount of info there. (I did send a fairly detailed note to Matt as a PM, on the sequence of fitting my CG to my Raven, 38 x 17, and am happy to send the same to you if it's helpful -- let me know.

The issue may be some more fiddling required with the Nomad frame, but I recall David Simpson explaining his fitting & experience on his Nomad 2, over the course of a Vancouver winter.

Cheers,  John

Slammin Sammy

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2014, 05:23:58 PM »
Sam, the CG should be no problem on your wife's Raven.  I've lost track of the references, but the "chain life with rohloff" seems to have morphed into a CG discussion--they're related, obviously--but I recall Matt's queries about fitting CG's to Ravens on another thread, and there's a fair amount of info there. (I did send a fairly detailed note to Matt as a PM, on the sequence of fitting my CG to my Raven, 38 x 17, and am happy to send the same to you if it's helpful -- let me know.

The issue may be some more fiddling required with the Nomad frame, but I recall David Simpson explaining his fitting & experience on his Nomad 2, over the course of a Vancouver winter.

Cheers,  John

Thanks very much, John. I'll take you up on your kind offer, if it's not too much trouble. And I will review David's thread in the next few days while awaiting delivery of the new CG.

Now I suppose we really should return control of the thread back to the topic.  :)

Cheers!
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 05:26:53 PM by Slammin Sammy »

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2014, 05:52:12 PM »
Ha ha. That's me. But I have enjoyed all the posts here about the CG.
If anything, I have received more info. than I expected and I now have a tougher choice to make on the chain ring sizes.

I don't tour too much so without buying x2 set ups I will go with one that allows me to climb walls and then spin away the days until you do tour!

Thanks chaps
Matt
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ipswichcycler

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2014, 05:53:59 PM »
Please don't stop the chainglider topic on my account.  I've got a nomad mk2 590L with 40 and 17 teeth and I'm interested in the possibility of fitting a chain glider. I'm a bit concerned about the fitting of a surly front chainring (?) and the need for spacers and such like.  

It seems the 38 and 16 front and rear sprocket have very similar gear inches to my current 40 and 17
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 06:14:01 PM by ipswichcycler »

Andre Jute

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2014, 09:50:15 PM »
But what really concerns me is the rear rubbing on the hub. It does rub - I have (slightly) marked the hub case already.

I have shortened the "arms" of the CG because the rear wouldn't fit on at all. At Andre's urging, I will continue to play with the setup to try and achieve nirvana, and I have ordered one for my wife's Raven (38-17), so will get a good opportunity to confirm the fitment.

If the Chainglider components are correct but the rear end has actually rubbed on your bike, however slightly, I'd wait until the new one arrives and is fitted to your wife's bike, a fresh start so to speak with new information and experience, and then return to the one on your bike bike and see what can be done.

Andre Jute

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2014, 10:54:53 PM »
I'm a bit concerned about the fitting of a surly front chainring (?) and the need for spacers and such like.  

It doesn't have to be a Surly chainring. Any chainring that fits can be used: you could choose steel or possibly thin aluminum (I have some Stronglight ali chainrings that seem like they would fit). But Thorn-level quality ali chainrings intended to last a long time are usually too thick. The reason so many forum members fit the Surly stainless steel ring and be done with it is that it will last forever and an ali chainring will eventually wear away even inside a Chainglider, and steel might even rust. I had a good quality Indian Amar steel chainring in a Utopia Country chain case (similar to but much better sealed than the Chainglider, which is actually sealed better than well enough) and it didn't rust, and didn't show much wear in 4500km either, but that's hardly a lot of miles, nor very hard miles. So people just take the Chainglider concept to its logical conclusion and fit a stainless steel chainring to reduce maintenance and replacement to the minimum. The logic for some fitting the KMC X1 Rohloff-specific chain is the same: reduce or obviate entirely the maintenance/replacement cycle. I've taken this a step further, by not adding any lube to my chain inside the Chainglider, running it only on the factory packing grease it arrived in. The KMC X8 chain currently on my bike has run without any lube added to the factory grease for 3500km without any sign of abnormal wear, indeed with no sign of wear at all. It needs only to make another 1000km to beat the previous well-lubed chain. There's a thread here somewhere about it but it isn't very active because there's nothing to report.

Whether you need spacers depends on what the Surly stainless chainring is replacing. You need a 54mm chainline with the Rohloff gearbox, and it has to be good to within 1mm. If you have that already, no spacers are required. If you're fitting a different bottom bracket, you just buy it to suit (118mm axle width is good with the common Sugino XD2 and rebrands and equivalents). If you're fitting a different crank, ditto. The reason for the necessity of spacers being assumed is that most people on a Thorn forum have a thick Thorn ali chainring fitted, and the thinner Surly has to be centred on the removed chainring's thick edge. But you can achieve the same effect much more conveniently, and with better engineering integrity, with a spacer between the frame and the bottom bracket lockring There are in any event Rohloff spacers available that meet this eventuality precisely and they're pretty cheap.

It seems the 38 and 16 front and rear sprocket have very similar gear inches to my current 40 and 17

Couple of penny-farthing equivalent  tables I worked up for forum members at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGHebieChainglider.html include all the permitted Rohloff toothcount combinations for which Chaingliders are available; check the tyre and cadence prefs at the top of each table. If you're a heavy tourer, 38x16 sounds good; Dan Wood, a heavy tourer in heavy, dangerous going, a guy with dud knees but a high cadence, goes all the way down to Rohloff's permitted limit of 36x17 setup. But if you're a light tourer, or a masher rather than a spinner, 38x16 may be too low, because you'll spin out at the top irritatingly often. I live in a town all on hills, in a countryside full of hills, and had two recent turns of cardiac surgery, and find 38x16 just right but I don't mind cruising down hills in exchange for gears low enough never to have to push.

Thing is, if you have a Rohloff 17t sprocket already and still in good nick, it'll take forever to wear out, so you'll be throwing out a good part, or giving it away. 38x17 is also possible under both the Rohloff and Chainglider regimes.

The reason I mentioned Dan above is that he decided on due deliberation that reliable stump-pulling gears are more important to him than low maintenance and ultra-long transmission system life. Something you have to decide for yourself.

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2014, 12:43:41 PM »
Sam, the CG should be no problem on your wife's Raven.  I've lost track of the references, but the "chain life with rohloff" seems to have morphed into a CG discussion--they're related, obviously--but I recall Matt's queries about fitting CG's to Ravens on another thread, and there's a fair amount of info there. (I did send a fairly detailed note to Matt as a PM, on the sequence of fitting my CG to my Raven, 38 x 17, and am happy to send the same to you if it's helpful -- let me know.

The issue may be some more fiddling required with the Nomad frame, but I recall David Simpson explaining his fitting & experience on his Nomad 2, over the course of a Vancouver winter.

Cheers,  John

Hi John,
Many thanks for that PM. last June

I just checked it and the Dropbox links don't work now. :( :(

Also, I note you say you fitted it to a 38/17 combo but the SJS page for the CG says 39/18-22.

Is there a guide from Hebie saying that 17 goes with 38?

I am thinking of going for the 38/18 combo.
But when I look on the SJS site, the rear rings are only 13 15 16 & 17 teeth!
What am I missing?

I am about to place my order but will hold off until I hear from you - or someone else.
Surley 38 ring - part 20828

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julk

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Re: Chain life with rohloff (and a bit of chainglider stuff too)
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2014, 03:39:37 PM »
Here is what I ordered to go from a Thorn setup to a Surly chain ring and Chainglider.