Author Topic: Cog size and drivetrain wear  (Read 4152 times)

RonS

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Cog size and drivetrain wear
« on: February 16, 2014, 01:57:01 AM »
Hello all.

My new Rohloff hub has arrived! Now all I have to do is wait for the next VISA billing cycle to start to order a frame from the good folk at SJS.

The hub came with a 16T cog. I was thinking of ordering the Thorn 19T cog with the frame and going 43-19 with gearing instead of 38-16.
What are your opinions on increased drivetrain life with the bigger cogs? Would the increase be dramatic?

The initial cost could be partially recovered if someone on the forum wants a half price 16T cog  ;)

JimK

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Re: Cog size and drivetrain wear
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2014, 02:40:59 AM »
Seems to me that the wear gets reduced for two reasons:

1) the wear gets spread over more teeth

2) the wear per tooth is lower because the tension is lower.

So I think you should get (19/16)^2 more wear, or about 40%. I think about switching once the equipment I have wears out... maybe ten years from now!

David Simpson

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Re: Cog size and drivetrain wear
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2014, 06:57:53 AM »
I have also heard that the wear is reduced when using larger cogs/sprockets because the chain links bend in a smaller angle as they go around the cogs/sprockets.  The smaller angle means it is harder for dirt and grit to get between the links.

I was planning to go with a larger cog and sprocket on my Nomad, but I went with 38/16 because I have installed a Hebie Chainglider.  I can't run a Chainglider with anything larger.

- Dave

John Saxby

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Re: Cog size and drivetrain wear
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2014, 09:20:36 AM »
On my Raven, Ron, I've fitted a 17 T cog on the Rohloff and a 38T Surly chain ring, the latter to let me fit a Hebie Chainglider.  Hebie do offer a guard for a 42-44T ring, however -- assume that would fit a 19T at the rear, but haven't checked that.  Good luck with your build!  Mine is well under way at my shop in Ottawa, and should be ready in the first half of March, if the ordered bits arrive from the US in good time.  I'm writing from the Netherlands, where the air is soft and the temps are mild -- feels like Vancouver  :-)

Andre Jute

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Re: Cog size and drivetrain wear
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2014, 10:59:45 AM »
The hub came with a 16T cog. I was thinking of ordering the Thorn 19T cog with the frame and going 43-19 with gearing instead of 38-16.
What are your opinions on increased drivetrain life with the bigger cogs? Would the increase be dramatic?

The initial cost could be partially recovered if someone on the forum wants a half price 16T cog  ;)

There's a reason Herr Rohloff fits the 16T sprocket as standard: it's very versatile, and the longest-lasting of all his sprockets.

I'd like to see you get the 40% longer chain life that Jim postulates, but I won't be betting my own money on it. For a start, with an uneven number of teeth, you're already excluding yourself from the minimum wear characteristic of an even-tooth count. Personally, I think that the wear characteristic of the odd-tooth  count of 43x19 will cancel out the size advantage over the even-tooth count of 38x16, and you'll end up with no advantage for the additional expense. (Basically, this is because the inner plates of a chain are always spaced at 1/2in exactly, with all the wear concentrated in the outer plates, so if you always put an even-tooth count chain back on in phase, or never need to take it off, for which see below, only every second tooth wears, and a chain with an even number of teeth lasts longer.)

It thus seems to me that you're going the long, expensive, inconvenient way about a simple problem of extending cog life. The life of the Rohloff sprocket is already extraordinary. Good quality chainrings, like Thorn's own thick ali ones, or the stainless steel Surly that has a vogue on this forum, also already last very well. Good quality chains like the KMC X8, also popular here, have a track record of lasting extremely well and being cheap as dirt at least at the discounters.

Your choice of 43x19 offers gear ratios practically identical to 38x16. The difference is that with 38x16 you already own half the components, so that is one purchase price and carriage charge you can avoid. The choice of 43x19, besides being inherently faster-wearing than even tooth counts, also excludes you from the top strategy for increasing transmission life:

The key to a long transmission life is to keep dirt out of it altogether.

The key to keeping dirt out of your transmission is the Hebie Chainglider. The Chainglider fits 38, 42, and 44 tooth chainrings, and all the standard Rohloff sprockets. I doubt it will fit the non-standard 19T Thorn sprocket, but you can ask them. It doesn't fit the Thorn chainring too well (the chainring is too thick), but there are some working installations here with the Thorn chainring and the owners haven't reported noticeably sub-optimal operation. Your suggested 43x19 drive won't fit a Chainglider. (And there aren't any good alternatives to the Chainglider. I tested them all. Search for my report on this forum.)

In summary, 43x19 cogs aren't likely to increase component life (over a 38z16 choice); such a choice is in fact an unnecessarily expensive way of failing to achieve an unnecessary aim, and excludes you from the much more convenient way of achieving the same aim, and some others more desirable, like minimum or zero chain maintenance. (Yes, that's right, zero chain maintenance; I have an ongoing experiment of running a KMC X8 chain inside a Hebie Chainglider with only the factory lube, currently at 2600km; description elsewhere on this forum.)

***
A note about "unnecessary aim". There are some champion chain-life extenders on this board, absolutely amazing mileages. The optimum Rohloff touring transmission setup for longevity seems to be 16T Rohloff sprocket, 38T Surly stainless steel chainring, KMC X8-9x chain, and Hebie Chainglider. But note that for most of us with this setup the primary point is maintenance reduction, because even open this combo gets really good mileage. Though I'm a big booster of the Chainglider, I reckon you'd need to be a constant commuter, say 10K a year, or a world circumnavigator, to recover the cost of the Hebie (mine was under 60 euro landed) in extended transmission life, simply because the components we're typically enclosing already have such excellent life. So I view the Chainglider as a luxury/convenience item.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 05:15:32 PM by Andre Jute »

Andre Jute

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Re: Cog size and drivetrain wear
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2014, 11:05:53 AM »
I'm writing from the Netherlands, where the air is soft and the temps are mild -- feels like Vancouver  :-)

They'll be happy to hear in Vancouver that their weather is mild and pleasant!

martinf

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Re: Cog size and drivetrain wear
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2014, 01:57:00 PM »
On non-Rohloff hub-gear bikes I have found that using bigger sprockets increases service life.

In practice, occasionally removing the exposed chain to clean off the excess crud and not fussing about how I put the chain back on, I've not found any noticeable difference between odd-tooth (21T) and even-tooth (22T), both last longer than the 18T supplied as standard with Sturmey Archer hubs.

When I bought my Raven Tour in 2012 I quite naturally thought about getting a 19T sprocket.

But, quoting Andre, "The key to a long transmission life is to keep dirt out of it altogether".

As I was also hankering after a relatively hassle-free chaincase, instead of going for the 19T I decided to optimise things for the Chainglider and got the fairly standard 38x16 combination, with a Surly chainring. The Surly is thinner than alu, so fits better in the Chainglider, and anyway, stainless steel should last better than aluminium.

John Saxby

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Re: Cog size and drivetrain wear
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2014, 07:50:23 PM »
Quote
They'll be happy to hear in Vancouver that their weather is mild and pleasant

Jeez, you had me worried for a moment there, Andre, thought maybe I'd Said The Wrong Thing -- then I just checked the Environment Cda website & learned that it's Standard Operating Procedure in Van, 8 degrees high, and rain forecast all week. Temps are mild and the air will be soft, for sure; the sun, er, well, not so much ... maybe Rual can post some fotos of sunny Scotland.

May be best to get that 38T sprocket + a Chainglider, Ron, at least for winter.

rualexander

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Re: Cog size and drivetrain wear
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2014, 08:12:18 PM »

RonS

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Re: Cog size and drivetrain wear
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2014, 09:36:29 PM »
Thank you everyone for the learned responses.

Jim, your last sentence got me wondering. 40% is a wonderful improvement, but, if the starting point is already a phenomenally good number, why mess with a good thing?

Andre, your well reasoned response has convinced me that the cost effective solution is to go with the 38-16 combo and the Hebie, as the difference in the ex-VAT cost between the 19T cog and the chainglider from SJS is only about £13. Carriage either way is covered by the delivery of the frame itself. Or save £37 and just stick with the 38-16 alone, as world travel is not in my plans, although part time commuting is. That's £37 to put towards an 853 fork! But that's another subject.

As for the weather, the current conditions where I live, 30km East of Vancouver, are 7C and clouds. No rain yet, although it's forecast on and off most of the week, so I'm off for a ride.

Cheers

Ron

Andre Jute

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Re: Cog size and drivetrain wear
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2014, 09:52:41 PM »
Standard Operating Procedure in Van, 8 degrees high, and rain forecast all week. Temps are mild and the air will be soft, for sure; the sun, er, well, not so much ...

It's 8C here and reining but it feels like 1C because of the wind.

mickeg

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Re: Cog size and drivetrain wear
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2014, 03:13:26 PM »
Thank you everyone for the learned responses.

Jim, your last sentence got me wondering. 40% is a wonderful improvement, but, if the starting point is already a phenomenally good number, why mess with a good thing?

Andre, your well reasoned response has convinced me that the cost effective solution is to go with the 38-16 combo and the Hebie, as the difference in the ex-VAT cost between the 19T cog and the chainglider from SJS is only about £13. Carriage either way is covered by the delivery of the frame itself. Or save £37 and just stick with the 38-16 alone, as world travel is not in my plans, although part time commuting is. That's £37 to put towards an 853 fork! But that's another subject.

As for the weather, the current conditions where I live, 30km East of Vancouver, are 7C and clouds. No rain yet, although it's forecast on and off most of the week, so I'm off for a ride.

Cheers

Ron

Part of the theory of the even number teeth is to keep the inner or outer plate links on the same teeth.  I put a small notch in one tooth as a marker and I put the chain on so only the links with outer plates land on the notched teeth.
http://sheldonbrown.com/chain-life.html


RonS

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Re: Cog size and drivetrain wear
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2014, 09:27:13 PM »
Thanks for the idea. I shall try that on the new bike.