stack of spacers or angled stem

[honesty]

As probably with most Thorns, my audax has a good stack of spacers under the stem, 50mm under and 10mm over the 8 degree angled 100mm stem. I'm able to get a higher quality stem for no money (3T ARX through play.com where I have vouchers). The stem will be a 110mm one with a 17 degree angle. It gets the handlebar position within 5mm of is current location. So my question is this, apart from aesthetic reasons (and a *slight* weight saving) what are the differences?

[Danneaux]

So my question is this, apart from aesthetic reasons (and a *slight* weight saving) what are the differences?

Short answer: "Not much difference in terms of use, possibly a lot in terms of aesthetics".

Longer answer: I faced a similar question when I got Sherpa and again later with my Nomad, as I wanted to keep both steerers long to allow maximum flexibility in handlebar placement and because I had designs on the space available (bottles mounted to steerer), and also wanted to know if it would be "safer" to have a low-mounted, upward-reaching stem versus simply flipping it for a horizontal placement atop a taller stack of spacers.

After doing a lot of math, analyzing the robust dimensions of the steerer (wall thickness and diameter), and a trip past Bike Friday's manufacturing facility here in town (they have successfully used much taller, smaller-diameter steerers on their Folders), I concluded it really makes no difference to safety or function at my weight and riding positon where/how a stem is clamped to a Thorn's threadless steerer.

As for aesthetics, a traditionalist might prefer a horizontal stem. Someone interested in saving every gram and certain of their position might wish to cut the steerer and go directly to the handlebars with a sharply angled stem. Placement of stem-mounted accessories will dictate the stem to be used (I found my GPS easier to read when it was mounted horizontally). Perhaps a person just likes one style more than another. All are valid reasons to choose one stem over another.

If the number or appearance of spacers makes for a visual hiccup, SJS Cycles/Thorn now offer an alternative: Tall spacers. My Nomad came equipped with these, making the whole of the steerer look much cleaner and more integrated. The spacers are available here:
• Individually (up to 48mm tall): http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-alloy-headset-spacer-w-internal-bore-1-1-8-inch-prod27562/
• As a set: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-alloy-headset-spacer-kit-1-1-8-inch-3mm-to-108mm-prod27590/

They do wonders for cleaning up the "stack of poker chips" look that comes from using shorter spacers, and I really like the effect. Andy Blance very kindly took a couple photos as he worked with the Thorn crew to assemble my Nomad to allow the most flexibility in shifter placement with drop 'bars. I've attached these below so you can see the visual difference between the short and tall spacers.

Looking at the archived photos of your lovely blue Audax, I think it would look fine as-is or with either the new stem, tall spacers, or both.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Dan.

[mickeg]

It is personal preference.

Two photos attached (one in next post due to size), the one with horizontal stem is my Sherpa.  The one with the steeply angled stem is my new Nomad.  On the Sherpa I had no reason to cut the steerer tube so I chose to retain flexibility by keeping a longer steerer and using a horizontal 17 degree stem.  The Nomad, I wanted the fork as short as practical for packing in luggage, thus I cut the steerer tube and use a steeply sloped stem.

The Sherpa:

[mickeg]

The Nomad shorter steerer tube and angled stem.

[Andre Jute]

A shorter steerer tube and a steeply angled stem would undoubtedly look cleaner, if that matters to you. But that's just opinion.

I were you, I'd focus sharply on the 5mm difference in handlebar position. A couple of years ago when I fitted an n'lock stem (a security device) I couldn't get an adjustable one in black and took the fixed, horizontal stem. I measured and calculated carefully and reckoned the bars would be 2mm forward and 2mm lower than on the previous stem (which was adjustable) and handlebars, which were also being replaced because part of the new setup was a security cable inside the handlebar. It sounds like nothing, 2.25 mm total angular shift in hand position, but my back preferred the previous angle, and the small change caused a rolling series of alterations of seat height and angle*, and, while now comfortable and used to the new, more sporting position, I still think it inferior to what I had before. I'm actually slower in the new position, because I can't hit the potholes as hard as before.

It is absolutely amazing how what appears to be a marginal change in hand position can affect the rider. I now think of 5mm handlebar shift as huge.

*And I still haven't finished with these adjustments; I was delayed until Julian (hulk) gave me an adaptor that will permit me to use my fave twin-rail Brooks saddle with any seatpost.

[ians]

have a play with this...

http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/stem.php

ians

[honesty]

Sitting at home last night I got out a ruler and a protractor and did some calculations. Dropping the stem by 15mm and using a new 17 degree stem at 100mm puts the handlebars at the same height and 4mm closer. The only assumption I had to make is the headset angle of 72 degrees as thorn dont quote it anywhere. I can definitely live with the bars being ever so slightly closer.

[leftpoole]

As probably with most Thorns, my audax has a good stack of spacers under the stem, 50mm under and 10mm over the 8 degree angled 100mm stem. I'm able to get a higher quality stem for no money (3T ARX through play.com where I have vouchers). The stem will be a 110mm one with a 17 degree angle. It gets the handlebar position within 5mm of is current location. So my question is this, apart from aesthetic reasons (and a *slight* weight saving) what are the differences?

Hello,
I have not been able to work out why most Thorn bikes require stacked spacers!
All my previous bikes had lower bars/higher front frame ends.
My previous various makes of bike were all too long top tube for me but correct hight for long legs. So Thorn became my bike (s) of choice for the past 15 years!
But, I do not like the stack and only 'put up' with it because the bikes fit me.
However the sizes Thorn representatives (experts?) tell me I require do not actually match me in reality, and I have sold a couple of bikes in the past and purchased larger because of this.
My opinion is that the Thorn bikes are built to fit multiple sized people for any one frame size (naughty).
Put this on top of the questionable phrases used 'hand built in Taiwan?) and hand built by what? Real people or Robots operated by real people?
The quality of Tig welding is beautiful, but too beautiful for genuine hands on?
I love my bikes and have even replaced the ones I sold (nearly) due to ongoing ill health. I however do doubt some of the design and manufacturing (claims).
Maybe I am wrong but I am entitled to query am I not?
Best to all,
John
www.pbase.com/leftpoole

[honesty]

I do get the feeling that if you fit 2 sizes they recommend the smaller. This is definitely what they did with me. I'm 5'10.5" and would have gone for the 570 audax frame if left to my own devices, but after conversation with Thorn went for the 550. There is probably some logic in this, in that a slightly smaller frame can be made to fit better than a slightly too large one. Saying that my bike is really comfortable to ride and I'm not feeling cramped on it or anything, its just that I have 50mm of spacers on the steerer!

[leftpoole]

I do get the feeling that if you fit 2 sizes they recommend the smaller. This is definitely what they did with me. I'm 5'10.5" and would have gone for the 570 audax frame if left to my own devices, but after conversation with Thorn went for the 550. There is probably some logic in this, in that a slightly smaller frame can be made to fit better than a slightly too large one. Saying that my bike is really comfortable to ride and I'm not feeling cramped on it or anything, its just that I have 50mm of spacers on the steerer!

Hello,
Same stack on my 550 and I am 5ft 7inches! My bikes 'fit' me well, or is it that I 'fit' my bikes?
John

[honesty]

I think I have quite short legs, stand over is 83cm...

I think I'm probably a bit odd anyway, I use 175mm cranks for example!

[Andre Jute]

Sitting at home last night I got out a ruler and a protractor and did some calculations. Dropping the stem by 15mm and using a new 17 degree stem at 100mm puts the handlebars at the same height and 4mm closer. The only assumption I had to make is the headset angle of 72 degrees as thorn dont quote it anywhere. I can definitely live with the bars being ever so slightly closer.

For most riders who can afford bikes in the Thorn class, bringing the bars a fraction closer would be superior to moving them a fraction further.

[triaesthete]

FWIW, my understanding of stacked spacers WRT Thorn design philosophy:

Thorns are designed for a comfortable standover height AND to have handlebars bars level with the saddle or above. This is why they are comfortable adaptable and practical for many people.  The corollary of this is the long steerer and spacer stack. Proof that form follows function. And can you really have too much standover?

A quick flick through the new CTC mag bike ads shows a trend (marketing tyranny?)towards low bars and few or no spacers.  Even a tourer like the Ridgeback Panorama looks to have bars about 75mm lower than the saddle!? Never mind all the sportive bikes with a differential of what appears to be about 150mm    A notable exception is the Spa Touring but this like the Thorns is designed by a cyclist for riding.

Honesty, if I were you I would try your new up angled stem on the same set of spacers as the old one. Sit up and see the sights all around when pootling on the tops, and use the drops more often and for longer if you're in a hurry.  This made an amazing difference for me coming from the old school bars 2" below saddle set up.

Hands up for spacers
Ian

[geocycle]

I have sat on the fence.  I cut the steerer and flipped the stem to face upwards but left an inch of adjustment either way.  Andre's statement above about Thorn owners is very true!

[NZPeterG]

Hi why not get a Pro Bike Fit!
The Best thing I have done!
Most of you have you Handlebars Far Too High!

Happy Cycling in the Sun.

Pete . . . .