Author Topic: Using different shifter cable for EX  (Read 13702 times)

billj

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Using different shifter cable for EX
« on: May 11, 2006, 10:14:45 PM »
I have replied to a couple of loosly related posts about stiff shifting on Rohloff EX.

Stiff shifting seems to be a common complaint, and the typical causes of this are complex cable routing or the cable liners shifting inside the rohloff housings.  I had my shifting stiffening up but was not due to the above causes.  In frustration i changed the cables out completely to Shimano XTR cables and housings and got a very very good result with much improved shifting, very precise and light and smooth.

Personally i would highly recomend this change but i have only had my rohloff bike for less than a year so would be interested to see if anyone else has had similar experience.

The Shimano cable housing is very much stiffer than the rohloff housing. It consists of longitudinal stainless wires embeded in teflon.  The end caps fit the rohloff shifter and EX box well and you get a very neat result which i think works way better than the rohloff cables. The cables are as near as i can tell identical...no problems with fitting them.
 

hobofabby

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Re: Using different shifter cable for EX
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2006, 05:06:04 PM »
Quick Questions...I need to replace my housing- my hub is the internal version-

*Is shifting or brake housing recommended or does it even matter???

*Also are they just normal shifting cables in there?

 I ask this because the housing on there now(installed by thorn) looks like normal brake cable housing(spiral coiled) with shifting cables inside. Thanks
 

hobofabby

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Re: Using different shifter cable for EX
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2006, 05:07:30 PM »
Quick Questions...I need to replace my shifting
housing- my hub is the internal version-

*Is shifting or brake housing recommended or does it even matter???

*Also are they just normal shifting cables in there?

 I ask this because the housing on there now(installed by thorn) looks like normal brake cable housing(spiral coiled) with shifting cables inside. Thanks
 

billj

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Re: Using different shifter cable for EX
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2006, 11:13:53 PM »
From what i can gather brake cables use heavier wire (i think 1.6mm) than shifter cables which are only 1.2mm.  The Standard rohloff housing may be a brake cable type housing and they install a liner in it and then the lighter shifter cables. The rohloff supplied cables seem to be the same as standard shifter cables (Stainless and same nipple as XTR cables)  
I dont have any experience with the internal version of the hub.
If your shifting is fine ie nice and light probably stick with the rohloff cables....but if the liner is damaged you will have to replace both.  XTR cables are readily available if you are in a hurry and in my experience work better at least on external shifter.
You may find you have to replace the cables any way as when you remove them from the clamps they tend to fray and it is difficult to get them into the clamps.
 

stutho

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Re: Using different shifter cable for EX
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2006, 08:59:17 AM »
hobofabby:
Internal cable is normal gear cable

External housing can either be brake housing (should last longer) or gear housing (stiffer and may give better shifting).

I believe that Rohloff recommend brake housing but I can’t find the reference.


stutho

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Re: Using different shifter cable for EX
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2006, 08:57:19 AM »
hobofabby:
I found this reference this morning but it is from Thorn not Rohloff.  Search the PDF for 'outer'.  I am sure I have read elsewhere that brake housing was superior for the Rohloff as it didn’t require the stiffness / zero compression of gear cable outer.

Although it says to use brake cable outer, billj and I have being using gear cable outer.  I have only ever used gear cable outer so I can't say which is better but I have not had any problems.

Good Luck with you repairs.

hobofabby

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Re: Using different shifter cable for EX
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2006, 04:40:34 PM »
Thanks for the info! Cheers.
 

univac

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Re: Using different shifter cable for EX
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2007, 05:52:47 AM »
OK, I have a DB/EX Rohloff (but it's not a Thorn frame).  I've decided to post here since there's a great Rohloff community here.  

My shifting is getting progressively harder and harder.  I've got about 1500 km on the hub so far.  In the last few weeks, I've started to get callouses on my right hand (no jokes please)!  Anyhow, I'm intrigued, and encouraged by the Shimano XTR recommendation and I'm willing to give the XTR cable housing a shot to see if that helps BUT I'm confused about what the diameter of the gear cable should be: 1.1mm or 1.2mm?  The Rohloff catalogue clearly states 1.1mm for the DB/EX, but I'm guessing that's to ensure it fits inside the Rohloff cable housing's nylon sleeve.  If I buy the Shimano XTR cable and housing set, I should be OK with 1.2mm gear cables?

The only complication I can foresee is that the 1.2mm gear cable might not fit thru the hole in the cable pulley in the cable box [of the external gear mech].  Does anyone know that answer?

Thanks in advance,

bryan

« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 06:30:00 AM by univac »
 

billj

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Re: Using different shifter cable for EX
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2007, 10:13:33 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by univac

OK, I have a DB/EX Rohloff (but it's not a Thorn frame).  I've decided to post here since there's a great Rohloff community here.  

My shifting is getting progressively harder and harder.  I've got about 1500 km on the hub so far.  In the last few weeks, I've started to get callouses on my right hand (no jokes please)!  Anyhow, I'm intrigued, and encouraged by the Shimano XTR recommendation and I'm willing to give the XTR cable housing a shot to see if that helps BUT I'm confused about what the diameter of the gear cable should be: 1.1mm or 1.2mm?  The Rohloff catalogue clearly states 1.1mm for the DB/EX, but I'm guessing that's to ensure it fits inside the Rohloff cable housing's nylon sleeve.  If I buy the Shimano XTR cable and housing set, I should be OK with 1.2mm gear cables?

The only complication I can foresee is that the 1.2mm gear cable might not fit thru the hole in the cable pulley in the cable box [of the external gear mech].  Does anyone know that answer?

Thanks in advance,

bryan





Hi Bryan

The XTR cables I used were 1.2mm, they fit into the cable pulley fine.  The only thing to remember is you must get the cable lengths right the first time as the clamps in the cable pulley crimp the inner cable and deform it. If you pull them out after clamping they wont go back in. Also you must cut them very cleanly so they stay round and go easily into the pulley, any deformation makes it harder to get the cables in or causes the strands to fray out. I use a pair of very sharp and hard linemans wire cutters.
Also you must get the cables the right way round or else you will get the gears reversed.  I did this when i changed the cables on my girlfriend bike...we didnt notice until we were in the forest on our next ride.....she adapted very well to changing gears in the opposite direction!!!!!!!!??

good luck

billj
 

univac

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Re: Using different shifter cable for EX
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2007, 10:46:17 PM »
OK, It was a long journey to get this job done, for various reasons.

Just to recap, my shifting had become so tough that I was getting calluses on my hand.  The solution?  Replace the Rohloff cable housing with Shimano XTR housing, as per billj's suggestion earlier in this thread.  I had nothing to lose, except a bit of cash.

Firstly, I searched for XTR gear housing.  Sounds easy enough, eh?  Well, after all this, I'm still not clear whether XTR gear housing comes in 2 flavours or not:  the so-called SP41 silicon-based and the Teflon-based one.  Furthermore, most of the LBSes told me that they didn't have XTR but that they had SP41, suggesting that there were indeed 2 types of XTR housing!  On the web, I found the Shimano XTR packages specified SP41 housing!   Please: someone authoritively and definitively tell me (cite your sources)!.  Whatever, I ended up buying about 9 feet of SP41 from an LBS.  I could've got the official Shimano complete packages (housing, cable and ferrules) but I would've need 2 packages at $40CAD each to re-cable my bike, because Shimano packages come with 3 pre-cut segments of housing and 1 package wasn't long enough for my bike.  So, I ended up with SP41 housing, plus cables and ferrules for about $40CAD from an LBS.  I didn't go for coated cables as my LBS indicated he'd seen ‘pilling’ occur on coated cables, so I went with Jagwire uncoated 1.2mm gear cables.

The next time-consuming issue was, to make a long story short, I had previously used an English-sized Allan key to work on the Rohloff cable pulley’s set screw.  I should've used a 2mm Allan key.  I paid the price again, in lost time and money, as the set screw's head was stripped.  So, I need a replacement set screw plus I had to get the old one out out the cable pulley.  The Rohloff manual that came with hub is great and they specified the size of the screw: M4x4.  As it turns out this is a pretty popular with the radio control model airplane crowd and I was easily able to source this screw from my local hobby shop.  As for removing the stripped set screw, well, I broke a few drill bits trying to drill it out, not to mention more wasted time.  I then called Rohloff USA - I'm in Canada - to enquire about getting a new cable pulley and they wouldn't be able to ship me one for over a week because they were moving and had no idea where the part was in their warehouse!  Here I am dead in the water with no way of using my bike! :-(  So, I ending up dropping by a local auto transmission shop with an eye to seeing if they would drill out the set screw from the cable pulley.  The owner said 'no problem' and spent a fair amount of time drilling out the old screw out, and then retapping the threads (same size), just in case.  He only charged me $10CAD!  Wow - that made my week!

The next task was to experiment with the location of the EX box vis-a-vis the frame, the objective being to reduce the sharp bend in the cable housing at the hub end of the bike.  Moving the box one way ran it into the Avid disk brakes, and moving the box the other way extended the cable housing length enough such that I had some concern about the extra friction and I wasn't convinced the bend was that much less.  So, I left the location of the EX box as it was.

Next, was the final step: the actual recabling.  I took my time and completed it with no major issues.  It was the 1st time I'd recabled my Rohloff, but I’d previously taken the cable pulley box apart, so I had a pretty good idea of what was involved.  Once I completed the cabling, I was able to turn the Rohloff grip shifter with just my thumb and forefinger - it was that easy!  Being a pragmatic and experienced person in life (read: older?), I didn't celebrate yet, because I wanted to ride it at least 500 kms and see how it was after those ‘miles’.

It’s now been about a month since I recabled, and I've put about 700km on the bike with a great day ride in Jasper National Park of > 150km.  The rest of the mileage has been commutes or short recreational rides.  The verdict?  The shifting *has* tightened up somewhat since the recabling BUT I would consider the shifting to be quite easy, still.  It is certainly acceptable.  However, I would like to see this cabling job to go 2 years with acceptable shifting before saying it is a success.  :-)  I wouldn't have any qualms about recabling the bike every 2 years, especially when I put on 4 - 5000 km a year just in normal day-to-day use, never mind touring.

What would I do differently next time I recable my Rohloff bike?
1.  Ascertain if there is 'real' XTR cabling vs. SP41, and use it if there is.
2.  Use cable housing on the entire length of the bike from shifter to hub, versus in 3 segments as my bike was built originally.  billj recommended I cable the entire length and I think it would make sense.  I’m not sure what the official Rohloff recommendation is.  My bike has braze-ons such that I’d still have to cut the cable housing, or get some clips, or even new braze-ons, to hold the one-piece entire housing.  I’d have to think about that one.
3.  Ascertain whether or not coated gear cable does indeed “pill” and if not, see if that helps ease the shifting effort.

What are the advantages XTR (or SP41) cable housing vs. Rohloff?
1.  Cable housing more readily available than Rohloff.
2.  Can use 1.2mm gear cable with XTR versus harder to find 1.1mm gear cable.
3.  No inner nylon sleeve that can come out of the cable housing.
In my case, I plan to do some very long tours on this Rohloff bike and the first 2 items are pretty compelling reasons to recable with XTR.  On the other hand, since my bike was improperly cabled by my builder, which in turn caused the very hard shifting, I can't say that XTR cabling is 'better' than Rohloff’s.  However, I think if Rohloff made a housing with nylon sleeves that wre integral to the cable housing vs. being able to move around, then my hard shifting issue may never have occurred.

Many thanks to billj who helped me out – via email - in this entire recabling exercise!  It was nice to have the support of someone who’s “been there, done that!”   Likewise, I’d be happy to help out anyone, too!

I’ll try to provide an update after 2 years!

bryan
 

rickster

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Re: Using different shifter cable for EX
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2007, 12:20:26 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by univac

OK, It was a long journey to get this job done, for various reasons.

Just to recap, my shifting had become so tough that I was getting calluses on my hand.  The solution?  Replace the Rohloff cable housing with Shimano XTR housing, as per billj's suggestion earlier in this thread.  I had nothing to lose, except a bit of cash.

Firstly, I searched for XTR gear housing.  Sounds easy enough, eh?  Well, after all this, I'm still not clear whether XTR gear housing comes in 2 flavours or not:  the so-called SP41 silicon-based and the Teflon-based one.  Furthermore, most of the LBSes told me that they didn't have XTR but that they had SP41, suggesting that there were indeed 2 types of XTR housing!  On the web, I found the Shimano XTR packages specified SP41 housing!   Please: someone authoritively and definitively tell me (cite your sources)!.  Whatever, I ended up buying about 9 feet of SP41 from an LBS.  I could've got the official Shimano complete packages (housing, cable and ferrules) but I would've need 2 packages at $40CAD each to re-cable my bike, because Shimano packages come with 3 pre-cut segments of housing and 1 package wasn't long enough for my bike.  So, I ended up with SP41 housing, plus cables and ferrules for about $40CAD from an LBS.  I didn't go for coated cables as my LBS indicated he'd seen ‘pilling’ occur on coated cables, so I went with Jagwire uncoated 1.2mm gear cables.

The next time-consuming issue was, to make a long story short, I had previously used an English-sized Allan key to work on the Rohloff cable pulley’s set screw.  I should've used a 2mm Allan key.  I paid the price again, in lost time and money, as the set screw's head was stripped.  So, I need a replacement set screw plus I had to get the old one out out the cable pulley.  The Rohloff manual that came with hub is great and they specified the size of the screw: M4x4.  As it turns out this is a pretty popular with the radio control model airplane crowd and I was easily able to source this screw from my local hobby shop.  As for removing the stripped set screw, well, I broke a few drill bits trying to drill it out, not to mention more wasted time.  I then called Rohloff USA - I'm in Canada - to enquire about getting a new cable pulley and they wouldn't be able to ship me one for over a week because they were moving and had no idea where the part was in their warehouse!  Here I am dead in the water with no way of using my bike! :-(  So, I ending up dropping by a local auto transmission shop with an eye to seeing if they would drill out the set screw from the cable pulley.  The owner said 'no problem' and spent a fair amount of time drilling out the old screw out, and then retapping the threads (same size), just in case.  He only charged me $10CAD!  Wow - that made my week!

The next task was to experiment with the location of the EX box vis-a-vis the frame, the objective being to reduce the sharp bend in the cable housing at the hub end of the bike.  Moving the box one way ran it into the Avid disk brakes, and moving the box the other way extended the cable housing length enough such that I had some concern about the extra friction and I wasn't convinced the bend was that much less.  So, I left the location of the EX box as it was.

Next, was the final step: the actual recabling.  I took my time and completed it with no major issues.  It was the 1st time I'd recabled my Rohloff, but I’d previously taken the cable pulley box apart, so I had a pretty good idea of what was involved.  Once I completed the cabling, I was able to turn the Rohloff grip shifter with just my thumb and forefinger - it was that easy!  Being a pragmatic and experienced person in life (read: older?), I didn't celebrate yet, because I wanted to ride it at least 500 kms and see how it was after those ‘miles’.

It’s now been about a month since I recabled, and I've put about 700km on the bike with a great day ride in Jasper National Park of > 150km.  The rest of the mileage has been commutes or short recreational rides.  The verdict?  The shifting *has* tightened up somewhat since the recabling BUT I would consider the shifting to be quite easy, still.  It is certainly acceptable.  However, I would like to see this cabling job to go 2 years with acceptable shifting before saying it is a success.  :-)  I wouldn't have any qualms about recabling the bike every 2 years, especially when I put on 4 - 5000 km a year just in normal day-to-day use, never mind touring.

What would I do differently next time I recable my Rohloff bike?
1.  Ascertain if there is 'real' XTR cabling vs. SP41, and use it if there is.
2.  Use cable housing on the entire length of the bike from shifter to hub, versus in 3 segments as my bike was built originally.  billj recommended I cable the entire length and I think it would make sense.  I’m not sure what the official Rohloff recommendation is.  My bike has braze-ons such that I’d still have to cut the cable housing, or get some clips, or even new braze-ons, to hold the one-piece entire housing.  I’d have to think about that one.
3.  Ascertain whether or not coated gear cable does indeed “pill” and if not, see if that helps ease the shifting effort.

What are the advantages XTR (or SP41) cable housing vs. Rohloff?
1.  Cable housing more readily available than Rohloff.
2.  Can use 1.2mm gear cable with XTR versus harder to find 1.1mm gear cable.
3.  No inner nylon sleeve that can come out of the cable housing.
In my case, I plan to do some very long tours on this Rohloff bike and the first 2 items are pretty compelling reasons to recable with XTR.  On the other hand, since my bike was improperly cabled by my builder, which in turn caused the very hard shifting, I can't say that XTR cabling is 'better' than Rohloff’s.  However, I think if Rohloff made a housing with nylon sleeves that wre integral to the cable housing vs. being able to move around, then my hard shifting issue may never have occurred.

Many thanks to billj who helped me out – via email - in this entire recabling exercise!  It was nice to have the support of someone who’s “been there, done that!”   Likewise, I’d be happy to help out anyone, too!

I’ll try to provide an update after 2 years!

bryan


 

rickster

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Re: Using different shifter cable for EX
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2007, 10:16:09 PM »
So glad I found this thread my Rohloff cables have always been SH**t will follow these instructions after trying to remove the plastic sleeve on the existing cables to rescue them, I bet the allen bolts are buggered too!  a long way till Iam sorted this hub is on an ATB so will be a good test of longevity in mud will post results
 

billj

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Re: Using different shifter cable for EX
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2008, 06:11:08 AM »
A year on now and my XTr shifter cables are still working very well

its all good :) :) :)
 

univac

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Re: Using different shifter cable for EX
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2008, 06:42:20 AM »
1 year and 4 months, and 5,000 km later, my SP41s are working very well.  I'll easily make it to 2 years (my goal before re-cabling).  The nice thing is, I don't have to carry an extra, hard to find 1.1mm shifter cable on tour - I can stick with the more unbiquitous 1.2mm cables, found anywhere on my continent.  As a tourist, it's nice to have easily replaceable parts.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 06:47:56 AM by univac »
 

vik

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Re: Using different shifter cable for EX
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2008, 05:38:57 PM »
1 year and 4 months, and 5,000 km later, my SP41s are working very well.  I'll easily make it to 2 years (my goal before re-cabling).  The nice thing is, I don't have to carry an extra, hard to find 1.1mm shifter cable on tour - I can stick with the more unbiquitous 1.2mm cables, found anywhere on my continent.  As a tourist, it's nice to have easily replaceable parts.

Thanks for the info on being able to use shift housing/cable. I just ordered a spare set of Rohloff cables & housing from Thorn so I'll be good for quite a while with stock bits. But, it's good to know I can use standard bike cables & housing if I need to.

BTW - it sounds like you are in Alberta - I'm down in Calgary...small world.

cheers,

Vik
Safe riding,

Vik
www.thelazyrando.com