Rigida Andra 30 CSS. Dangerous in the wet?

[Matt2matt2002]

This is my first winter riding my Raven with the  Rigida Andra 30 CSS rims and brakes.

Not happy at all.

Coming home in the wet today. Usual route. I know when to brake and what to look out for on the road.
Very surprised at how much pressure I needed to pull the brake levers and how much time I needed to allow myself and bike for a complete stop.

Is this normal?

[IanW]

I have the Andra CSS rims and my wife has the Grizzly CSS rims, both using the recommended Swissstop Blue brake pads. She is entering her 3rd winter using them and I am entering my 2nd winter using them.

Yes their performance in the wet is very noticably less than in the dry
but I would say that they are definitely no *worse* in the *wet* than many other (non-CSS) rims in the *wet*.

The problem is that, in the *dry*, they are so much better.
So, when encountering wet conditions, it comes as a bit of a shock.

The recommended advice, even on cars/motorbikes with modern disk brakes, to clear your rims of water by a light application of the brakes after driving/riding through some significant depth of water (which equates to a mere puddle on a bicycle) definitely applies here.

If you want to reduce the degradation of rim-brake performance, the you will probably have to make the switch to disk brakes (or hub brakes)

But I definitely like the mechanical simplicity of traditional rim-brakes
and I definitely appreciate the better performance of CSS rims *in the dry*
and I am quite prepared to "manage" the build-up of water on the rims *in the wet*

My wife was horrified when she briefly went back to her old Orbit Mixte bike
to discover just how poor the cantilever brakes were *in the dry* compared to the Grizzly CSS / Swisstop Blue brakes (she nearly ran into the back of me while I was on my RST).

Have you got access to another non-CSS rim-braked bike to use as a comparison?

Just my 2p worth

Ian

[Matt2matt2002]

Thanks Ian.

The problem is that, in the *dry*, they are so much better.
So, when encountering wet conditions, it comes as a bit of a shock.

Quite agree. But I appeared to be going from one extreme to another.
In the dry I have to treat the brakes with respect to avoid flying over the bars.
In the wet I feel like i have posted a letter to the brakes and they may get the message the next day!

[brummie]

I've experienced similar issues in the past. I'm now running standard non CSS Grizzly rims... Essentially I believe the rims develop a 'glazed' surface after prolonged use which is ineffective in very wet conditions. I too found performance better than standard rims in the dry & indeed damp conditions. Performance nose-dived when things turned very wet !

You'll see in Thorns latest brochure that they are now recommending standard rims on the front & CSS on the rear only.

See this thread: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=2172.msg10399#msg10399

[julk]

I have to agree, the braking performance with CSS rims was very poor in the really wet conditions I experienced yesterday.
I do find the Koolstop black CSS blocks better than the Swissstop blues in the really wet, but still not really good enough.

I am tempted to regress to a standard rim on the front with Koolstop salmons, it is my birthday soon!
Julian.

[Relayer]

I have Grizzly CSS rims and they have always been poor in wet conditions.

When it's wet it's just a case of getting used to scrubbing the rims with a light touch of the brakes before you need them, and then applying a lot of pressure when you need stopping power.

It's kinda like toe overlap, when you know it's there, you deal with it.   

Jim

[FrogPrince]

I have a standard Grizzly on the front and a CSS Grizzly on the rear of my New Raven. Problem solved! Superb braking in the dry and the standard front compensates for the less good braking in the wet. Far better braking than any other bike I have ever had.

[Danneaux]

Hi All!

Here is The Word on CSS rims and really wet-weather braking performance from Andy Blance, as written in the Raven brochure Issue 17, Autumn 2013, pg 6:

A downside to CSS rims is that eventually the brake surface becomes polished smooth. This still gives awesome brake performance in the dry, with almost zero pad and rim wear but in severe wet conditions , braking performance can be drastically impaired. Our most recommended rim options are therefore to have a CSS rear rim and a plain front rim. This means that the Rohloff rear wheel won’t need rebuilding for ages and it also means that you will always have front brake which works in severe weather and doesn’t squeal when new.

Best,

Dan.

[onrbikes]

I find them excellent..... compared to what I had before . Aluminium rims .

How many times in the wet I could barely roll down a hill in the wet for fear of not being able to slow down, and god forbid, stop.
I like them.

[Matt2matt2002]

Hi All!

Here is The Word on CSS rims and really wet-weather braking performance from Andy Blance, as written in the Raven brochure Issue 17, Autumn 2013, pg 6:Best,

Dan.

Thanks Dan. May I ask what your own brake / rim set up is?
Matt

[Danneaux]

Thanks Dan. May I ask what your own brake / rim set up is?

H Matt,

Surely! I went with plain Deore v-brakes and fitted Kool-Stop salmon brake pads. I'm running plain (non-CSS) Rigida Andras on the Nomad as I did on Sherpa. I was and am very pleased with the dry and wet braking on both bikes. Braking is silent, easy to modulate, and stops me well without much hand effort even in torrential rain (provided I dry the rims by lightly applying the brakes periodically -- good practice for any combo to reduce stopping distance in case of emergency). I do find a full expedition load increases my dry and wet braking distances by about 20% -- it is just a lot more weight to stop than when I ride unladen. I try to plan my braking emergencies accordingly.  

For each of the two bikes (Sherpa and Nomad), it was a hard choice between the non-CSS and the CSS rims for me, so I did a lot of research and decided on the plain rims because I do ride in heavy rains surprisingly often (Oregon's non-summer weather can be very wet) and I knew I needed to be able to stop quickly -- particularly with a full touring load and on some of those very steep descents you occasionally see in my photos.

Also, I lived with some extraordinarily hard-anodized Matrix (Trek) rims in the mid-1980s that behaved very much like chromed steel rims in the wet -- I just couldn't stop well in traffic no matter how hard I squeezed. I admit memories of some close calls factored in my decision as well.

I do wish my plain aluminum rims didn't create black aluminum-oxide slurry that can get on bags and clothing and causes permanent stains.

I wish my rims were more wear-resistant, but it is kind of an academic argument for me...I still get really good rim life in my own use. I've got well over 28,000 all-weather miles on a pair of 700c Mavic MA-2s and they're still holding up fine. My Nomad's rims still look nearly as-new and the Andra rims have really thick sidewalls that will take a long time to wear thin even in my use. I've found the salmon-colored Kool-Stops are what make the difference for me. They are gentle on the rims yet work well wet or dry for me. I've used the same compound since 1978 on aluminum rims with all-good results.

I ordered my Nomad Mk2 with the Rohloff hub configured to use an optional brake disc; the frame itself has fittings for a rear disc. I figure if I need better braking, I can always choose to fit an Avid BB7 mechanical disc brake on the rear and then it won't matter which rim I use there. Choosing the disc-option Rohloff (only available with the EX shift-box) was an inexpensive way to futureproof the bike and make it more versatile should I wish to change brake types sometime.

I respect others' choices to use CSS and remain absolutely fascinated by the topic. I might get one or a pair someday. I wish I could say I've had personal experience with CSS rims. However, having made a deliberate decision to go with plain alu I'm not disappointed in the outcome, the key positive factor for me being the Kool-Stop salmon pads.

[EDIT/Addendum: In the 1980s, after some very good experiences, I ran across a batch of Araya rims (20A and 16A (5) ) that were very soft and -- wet or dry -- clogged my Kool-Stop pads and every other brand I tried with raw, silvery aluminum. It was like trying to stop my aluminum rims with aluminum pads! A switch to Mavic, Rigida, and Sun Metal rims completely solved the problem for me even while using the same pads, which I simply cleaned.

The Rigida Andras on Sherpa and the Nomad seem to have similarly good braking and I have noticed no heavy aluminum deposits on the pads. 6061 aluminum -- the kind most commonly used in rims -- can vary considerably in composition and still meet 6061 standards. I think those particular Arayas were probably lacking a bit of silica and really were a little "soft".]

All the best,

Dan.

[il padrone]

When it's wet it's just a case of getting used to scrubbing the rims with a light touch of the brakes before you need them, and then applying a lot of pressure when you need stopping power.

It's kinda like toe overlap, when you know it's there, you deal with it.  

+1

With the Andra CSS rims I am more than happy. They are a bit less good at braking in wet conditions. Fore-warned is fore-armed.

I am more than happy to deal with this in return for the major benefits in rim life and lack of brake-dirt. In the past my concern was with the developing scoring, and later concavity, of my rims. About every 4-5 years the rear rim would crack and I'd be up for a new wheel-build. Since building the Nomad my mileage has virtually doubled and after 18,000 kms the rims are still unmarked  

[StuntPilot]

Over the summer on tour I encountered a variety of conditions and weathers, including a few days of very heavy rain. The Raven Tour is fitted with standard Deore V-Brakes and Koolstop Dual compound pads and standard Rigida Andra rims. The original black Shimano pads were terrible in the wet and left black dust and marks on the rims.

Wet weather performance was fine with the Koolstops, again just remembering to gently clear the water from the rims now and then. The Koolstop pads were fine in the wet even with a full touring load on some very steep descents. The salmon variety may be even better but I haven't tried them yet. I found an interesting comparison review here though ... and a great blog too ...

http://my-bicycle-and-i.co.uk/2012/koolstop-salmons/

I am following this with interest as one day in particular made me think of the CSS rims. The cycle route over the North Yorkshire Moors (http://connect.garmin.com/activity/385534524) took me along some rough tracks and through many pot holes filled with what can be described as a slurry of granite 'micro-grit'. It provided on-road and off-road sections, steep ascents ('cos the grit stuck to the rim!) and descents, and a lot of muck and grit filled holes. An ideal testing ground for rim and brake pad combinations! The whole day the sound of the grit between the pads and the rim was horrible. I kept thinking of how much damage this would do to standard Rigida Andra rims on a long tour through such conditions. For that reason alone I will go for CSS rims in future.

Koolstop seem to have a lot of brake pad types ...

http://www.koolstop.com/english/compounds.html

For slow and steady fully loaded touring perhaps the CSS rims are no more dangerous in the wet than non-CSS rims? Maybe with a different braking technique and the best wet weather pads?

[mickeg]

My CSS rims only have 1,500 km so far and I rarely ride in the rain.  Thus no applicable experience with wet conditions and worn rims yet.

My deck shoes have siped soles and provide very good wet traction when boating.  I did a bit of web searching to find more info on this.  First link is sort of an overview, second link has good graphics to explain function.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siping_%28rubber%29
http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/tireSiping.dos

You will also see siping on the Schwalbe Marathon Extreme tire.

I wonder if brake pads could be siped?  And, if they were, would that work or not?  Brake pad rubber is much less flexible than tire rubber or boating shoe sole rubber, thus it might not be effective?

[Danneaux]

I wonder if brake pads could be siped?

Hi mickeg!

Around 1977? I owned a set of siped brake shoes produced in Belgium as I recall, though I don't remember the name. They did indeed work pretty well in the wet, but unfortunately gathered and trapped small grit and stones of the sort Richard described above, and seemed to make rim-scoring worse. Many aluminum rims used to be textured (and a few steel ones, at least as supplied by Peugeot -- or Geugeot, as the lettering was written!), but this patterning mostly held water and tore up the pads.

I remember using water from my bottle to hose off some of the grit that used to collect beneath patterned brake pads in the wet as I rode along. The cleaning didn't last long, but made me feel better and quieted the grinding noise for a bit.

The real problem with the siped pads I used was poor materials...they dried out quickly so the siping became sort of academic, as the rubber was soon shot. Only briefly did they work at their full potential before filling with grit and going hard all at once. The idea wasn't bad, though. Tire stores here'bouts regularly micro-sipe car tires for use in Oregon's very wet winters: http://www.galttech.com/research/cars/siping-your-tires.php  Unfortunately, while it seems to help in those conditions, it can also lead to chunking and increased tire wear in the dry. I think siping works better when the tires are designed for it from the factory, as Nokian have done with many of their winter-specific models.

One of the more effective brake pads I tried in my earlier days of cycling were by Fibrax and appeared to be made of leather similar to that used in toe straps. Surprisingly good wet-weather braking...not so good in the dry in my own use.

Kevlar/Aramid fiber brakes even better on aluminum rims when wet instead of dry. Do a Google search for "Yankee Bicycle" and you'll see (among many other interesting features) a unique contracting band-brake covered with woven Kevlar sheathing. The aluminum rims were extruded with a U-shaped braking track on one side (like another rim channel). The brake cable looped around this and was secured at the end with a bolt. Pulling the brake lever plunged the cable and its cover into the extruded groove on the rim, the Kevlar sheath serving as a very long friction surface that didn't seem to cause much rim wear. One clever idea among many on a bicycle that never found success. I do wonder if including Kevlar in pad compounds might be the "next big advance", perhaps even for CSS rims. It certainly worked well on the Yankee bicycle I tried in very wet conditions.

Best,

Dan.