Author Topic: Pitlocks, and Thorn don't like them?  (Read 12728 times)

Znook

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Pitlocks, and Thorn don't like them?
« on: August 09, 2013, 03:44:19 PM »
Just been re-reading the latest Nomad brochure and saw on one of the options pages (pp21) the comment against the Pitlocks entry, 'Note just because they’re an option doesn’t mean that we like them, or (we) would have them on our own bikes!'

It's made me wonder why they've said this. Any ideas?
I'm here, there and everywhere.

Dave Whittle Thorn Workshop

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Re: Pitlocks, and Thorn don't like them?
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2013, 04:07:05 PM »
A few issues in my opinions:

1. For some reason they now only supply 1 key... very annoying.
2. They arn't 100% fool proof (I'm not going to write here how to for obv reasons)
3. They are hard to get the correct tension, esp on Rohloff where if they are overtightened it can effect the shifting of the hub.
4. If you loose the key on tour your in a bit of trouble.

This are my personal opinions only.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 03:21:16 PM by Dave Whittle Thorn Workshop »

ianshearin

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Re: Pitlocks, and Thorn don't like them?
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2013, 04:28:13 PM »
Im really glad I got the Alfine hub, if those Rohloff's keep shi--ing......

[Minor edit for language by Dan]
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 06:08:23 PM by Danneaux »
In the end, it's not going to matter how many breaths you took, but how many moments took your breath away.
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Kuba

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Re: Pitlocks, and Thorn don't like them?
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2013, 04:32:58 PM »
Come on, this only happens when you over-tighten them. Makes sense to me!  ;)

Danneaux

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Re: Pitlocks, and Thorn don't like them?
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2013, 04:49:07 PM »
Hi Znook!

When I was spec'ing my Nomad, I asked Andy Blance about Pitlocks, and he mentioned he would be concerned about having mislaid the key when he needed his wheels out in a hurry.

Aside from Thorn's view, Pitlocks need to have the threads greased to aid in removal and prevent seizure, but it is very important to avoid getting grease inside the Rohloff or SON hub axles. Doing so will block the "breathing" vent that equalizes pressure in the hub with that of the outside atmosphere, and so void the hub warranty. The pressure-equalization hole prevents moisture being drawn past the bearing seals during rapid changes in temperature, say when wheeling a house-warmed bike outdoors into a cold rainstorm.

Pitlocks can be defeated by now-common means, at least here in the States. I won't say how and I discourage speculation, not wishing to aid thieves who don't already know. At present, I think Pitlock security depends on where one lives or travels and on how long and where the bike is left unattended.

I am currently investigating Atomic22 ( http://atomic22.com/ ) as an alternative. I'm looking at a pair of locking skewers and a security bolt for the Tout Terrain The Plug2+, which serves to secure the steerer/fork.

Atomic22s are expensive, but not as much as replacing either hub or the fork and front wheel.

There is still the matter of a key to keep track of, and that does concern me. When I get a flat it is usually at a bad time and in a bad place to fix it and I want the job over and done with as quickly as possible so I can be on my way again soonest. So...where do I keep the spare key(s)? My handlebar bag would be the logical place when touring -- I already have a clip there to keep my house key and the HB bag goes where I do when touring 'cos it has my ID/passport, credit cards, and cash. But what about day rides? Do I keep a spare key in my underseat tool bag? Okay, fine, but if I leave it on the bike when gone, it is an invitation to take both it and the key. Seems wise to carry at least one spare key if on a long tour. Things do get lost or misplaced on occasion and this would be a critical item when needed.

And, too there is the matter of a tool to turn the key. Pitlocks allow use of an allen key as a lever. I'm not sure about the Atomic 22s.
There is also the matter of torque and loosening of what is essentially a very long bolt. In my use, I found the hex-skewer on my SON28 dynohubs did not remain tight on rough roads and had to substitute a standard cam-over q/r.

The question of how effective a given theft deterrent will be depends on your proximity to a city and the local crime rate wrt bicycle theft and also on opportunity. If a thief has the time -- or the opportunity -- there are effective and immediate ways to invalidate nearly any deterrent. Sadly, my friends on the Continent tell me Rohloff theft from locked bikes is increasing. Despite use of a ring lock or U-lock, the thieves simply cut out all the spokes and make 'way with the hub. A locking skewer would definitely deter theft in this instance, even if it only made quick removal that much less convenient.

Best,

Dan.

Andre Jute

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Re: Pitlocks, and Thorn don't like them?
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2013, 05:48:40 PM »
Ian's talking about the weight of the kitty litter he has to carry on tour, Kuba.

ianshearin

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Re: Pitlocks, and Thorn don't like them?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2013, 06:17:40 PM »
Actually I was referring to Dave Whittles No 3......

Cmon, keep up..... ::)
In the end, it's not going to matter how many breaths you took, but how many moments took your breath away.
'shing xiong'

Kuba

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Re: Pitlocks, and Thorn don't like them?
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2013, 06:49:17 PM »
if they are overtightened it can effect the shiting of the hub.

A quote, for those who missed the key line in this thread. (I genuinely think this is one of the funniest typos I've ever seen).

triaesthete

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Re: Pitlocks, and Thorn don't like them?
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2013, 07:04:58 PM »
Humour our inner skuleboys!  ;D


Znook

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Re: Pitlocks, and Thorn don't like them?
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2013, 07:56:29 PM »
Thanks guys for the input, and the laughs.

There's been some great points raised. I'll definitely be locking down as much as possible to deter the casual miscreant, and the two wheels with expensive hubs are the prime candidates here, hence my question re the Pits when I saw that brochure entry.

At this point in time, unless further research says otherwise, I'll be going for the Atomics for this duty.

My best
Robbie
I'm here, there and everywhere.

geocycle

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Re: Pitlocks, and Thorn don't like them?
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2013, 08:39:52 PM »
Well I like pit locks.  I've had them on my bike since new.  They came with two keys so one is in my tool kit loosely zip tied to my multitool. The other at home. I'm disappointed to hear they have been cracked as until now they've give me great confidence in leaving just the frame locked. Some sort of locking skewer is essential with a rolhoff and SON combo.  I've had one problem due to operator error.  I over tightened one and snapped it after a puncture! This led to 25 miles off the moors to Newcastle with the back wheel held in by thin air and a well built frame!
 

mickeg

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Re: Pitlocks, and Thorn don't like them?
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2013, 02:18:45 AM »
I did not want to have a chance to loose a special key.  Thus, I got skewers that use a normal 5mm Allen wrench, thus only thieves that remember to carry their 5mm wrench can take advantage of them.  Halo XL.  Rear skewer was correct length, I cut about 10mm or maybe 15mm off of the front skewer.

I have both Halo XL skewers and also the regular quick release ones I bought from SJS.  Right now the Halo XL are in use.  But, I am sure that there will be times when I go back to quick release.

My Rohloff has no problem sh***ing with the Halo XL.

Delta also makes some Allen wrench skewers but I read on the internet that some of the Delta ones had problems of stripping threads.  I borrowed a set of the Deltas for a recent tour on my Sherpa before I owned the Halos, I was careful not to overtighen them. 

Some other brands are too short.  I bought some that were listed as 145mm, but I learned that was the total length, that specification did not mean it could handle a 145mm tandem hub.  These work only on bikes with 130mm dropout spacing or bikes with very thin dropouts.

il padrone

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Re: Pitlocks, and Thorn don't like them?
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2013, 03:12:12 AM »
I'm using the Pitlocks and am pretty happy with them. We toured Italy for 3 months with them on both bikes. One key worked for both - same coded key. So we had 4 keys that could be used. One of mine was on the key ring, along with the key to the Abus wheel-lock. The other was in a pocket in my valuables neck-pouch, so always handy. Margaret had hers tucked away in a valuables pouch.

We only needed to remove the wheels for packing prior to our flights, and my rear once for a puncture repair, so did not need to use them too much. There was no issue with overtightening, in fact the only 'problem' was when I discovered the rattle from Margaret's rear wheel was because the skewer was not tight enough  :-X

So most of the problems listed seem to be a bit of nit-picking in my opinion. 'Overtightening' is down to better operator training. My key goes everywhere I go with the bike lock keys. A bit of simple personal organisation works wonders. Those 'you-beaut' Atomics still require you to keep a key handy, and it looks to be an even smaller key, with no loop for a key ring.  A shame Pitlock only supply one key - just buy a second one then. The ability to release them is a concern, but still only a mild one at the moment.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 06:17:44 AM by il padrone »

Tako-kun

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Re: Pitlocks, and Thorn don't like them?
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2013, 12:01:40 AM »
Hi Dan,

What was your conclusion about the Atomic22 skewers?  Do you think they can be defeated by the same methods being used against Pitlocks, and are they any more appropriate for Rohloff and dyno hubs?

Cheers,
Mike

Hi Znook!

When I was spec'ing my Nomad, I asked Andy Blance about Pitlocks, and he mentioned he would be concerned about having mislaid the key when he needed his wheels out in a hurry.

Aside from Thorn's view, Pitlocks need to have the threads greased to aid in removal and prevent seizure, but it is very important to avoid getting grease inside the Rohloff or SON hub axles. Doing so will block the "breathing" vent that equalizes pressure in the hub with that of the outside atmosphere, and so void the hub warranty. The pressure-equalization hole prevents moisture being drawn past the bearing seals during rapid changes in temperature, say when wheeling a house-warmed bike outdoors into a cold rainstorm.

Pitlocks can be defeated by now-common means, at least here in the States. I won't say how and I discourage speculation, not wishing to aid thieves who don't already know. At present, I think Pitlock security depends on where one lives or travels and on how long and where the bike is left unattended.

I am currently investigating Atomic22 ( http://atomic22.com/ ) as an alternative. I'm looking at a pair of locking skewers and a security bolt for the Tout Terrain The Plug2+, which serves to secure the steerer/fork.

Atomic22s are expensive, but not as much as replacing either hub or the fork and front wheel.

There is still the matter of a key to keep track of, and that does concern me. When I get a flat it is usually at a bad time and in a bad place to fix it and I want the job over and done with as quickly as possible so I can be on my way again soonest. So...where do I keep the spare key(s)? My handlebar bag would be the logical place when touring -- I already have a clip there to keep my house key and the HB bag goes where I do when touring 'cos it has my ID/passport, credit cards, and cash. But what about day rides? Do I keep a spare key in my underseat tool bag? Okay, fine, but if I leave it on the bike when gone, it is an invitation to take both it and the key. Seems wise to carry at least one spare key if on a long tour. Things do get lost or misplaced on occasion and this would be a critical item when needed.

And, too there is the matter of a tool to turn the key. Pitlocks allow use of an allen key as a lever. I'm not sure about the Atomic 22s.
There is also the matter of torque and loosening of what is essentially a very long bolt. In my use, I found the hex-skewer on my SON28 dynohubs did not remain tight on rough roads and had to substitute a standard cam-over q/r.

The question of how effective a given theft deterrent will be depends on your proximity to a city and the local crime rate wrt bicycle theft and also on opportunity. If a thief has the time -- or the opportunity -- there are effective and immediate ways to invalidate nearly any deterrent. Sadly, my friends on the Continent tell me Rohloff theft from locked bikes is increasing. Despite use of a ring lock or U-lock, the thieves simply cut out all the spokes and make 'way with the hub. A locking skewer would definitely deter theft in this instance, even if it only made quick removal that much less convenient.

Best,

Dan.

Danneaux

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Re: Pitlocks, and Thorn don't like them?
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2013, 01:07:37 AM »
Quote
What was your conclusion about the Atomic22 skewers?  Do you think they can be defeated by the same methods being used against Pitlocks, and are they any more appropriate for Rohloff and dyno hubs?
Hi Mike, and welcome to the Thorn Cycling Forum!

At this point, all signs appear hopeful for the Atomic22's design to resist the exploit most commonly used on Pitlocks, though I have some ideas in mind that might defeat them. I do believe any security system can be defeated; the likelihood depends on the setting, opportunity, and the amount of time available. If the Atomic22s are resistant to attack in most ordinary touring situations, they will be good for my use, as I don't plan to leave my bike unattended overnight.

Hopefully soon, I will also be able to state firsthand how well the Atomic22s work with Rohloff and SON hubs. Both of those hubs require a relatively low fastening torque to prevent binding of the bearings. I found my two SON dynohub bolt-on skewers didn't always hold fast even when torqued to rated specs with two torque wrenches (the one to verify the other), so I replaced those with standard Shimano internal-cam quick-releases, also torqued to spec using PlastiGauge deformable torque-rated strips. I think the problem with the SON in my own use related to the magnetic eddy currents causing vibrations that loosened the bolt-on skewer.

I'll report back when I have firsthand empirical data.

Security skewers are important for keeping expensive Rohloff and SON hubs secure in high-theft locations. I'm reading more and more online reports where the rim is properly secured by a U-lock or ring-lock and the hub has been stolen through the simple expedient of snipping all the spokes with diagonal cutters or small compound-leverage bolt cutters. A gentle reminder, too, of the need to secure threadless steerers so the fork and front wheel cannot be easily removed from the bike.

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 03:49:39 AM by Danneaux »