Author Topic: Rim thikness 24 or less  (Read 2535 times)

Etienne

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Rim thikness 24 or less
« on: June 14, 2013, 03:09:32 pm »
 :D  assuming I want to shift between two wheels -especially for the front :

Did you notice ? somethimes you have to adjust the lenght of the V-brake cable !

Andra are 750 gr 24mm
but

Mavic XC 717 are 425 gr recommended till 85 kilos  (V-brake -update done via reference here (http://www.bike-components.de/products/info/p30202_XC-717-26--Felge-.html?xtcr=2&xtmcl=)
DTS XR425 are 426 gr recommended till 90 kilos  http://www.bike-components.de/products/info/p24499_XR-425-Felge-.html?xtcr=1&xtmcl=

Are there all 24mm large ?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 07:14:42 pm by Etienne »

Danneaux

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Re: Rim thikness 24 or less
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2013, 03:43:18 pm »
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Did you notice ? somethimes you have to adjust the lenght of the V-brake !
Hi Etienne!

Yes, I did notice!
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Are there all 24mm large ?
No, not all these rims are 24mm wide; in fact, they differ by as much as 2.2mm in width from widest to narrowest:

• The Rigida Andra rim indeed has an outer width of 24mm (and a 19mm inner well width).
• The Mavic XC 717 model intended for disc brakes has an outer width of 22mm.
• The DT Swiss XR 425 rim is only 21.8mm wide.

The width and amount of material in the rim extrusion and its placement all affect load capacity and recommended tire width and tire pressure.

And -- yes! -- the different widths do require v-brakes width adjustment, especially if you wish to keep the pads running close to the rim. Shimano recommend 1mm clearance between brake pad and rim sidewall *each side* (2mm total) in the product setup inserts included with each of their v-brakes (v-brakes have different leverage than, say, road calipers or cantilevers. If clearance is excessive, the levers can bottom out before full braking force is reached). This implies rims "should" be true to *less* than 2mm total lateral runout, or 1mm per side to avoid rubbing on the brake pads.

For this reason, I set up my brakes and trued wheels with the adjusters unscrewed so 3-5 threads are showing. This way, if I somehow manage to knock a rim out of true while traveling, I can simply dial the adjuster open a bit and continue onward for the day with reduced braking and no annoying drag until I can fix the wheel in camp that night. It happens very rarely, but is helpful when it does. In the same way, if one uses wheels with rims of different width, it is helpful to set the adjuster for the widest rim, then dial the adjuster down as needed when narrower rims are used.

As a side note, rims also differ in the height and placement of the sidewall braking track. Some rims have a large area near the edge that has not been machined or prepared for braking, and some rims have tall sidewalls that allow a generous area to place the brake pad vertically (Rigida Andras are very "forgiving" in this respect). Shimano recommend 1mm between the top of the brake pad and the edge of the rim, but the exact location varies from rim to rim, so if one switches between wheels/rims, this is something else to take into account. Some rims have such generously tall sidewalls, it is possible for the canny mechanic to adjust the pads vertically enough to alter the effective leverage at the caliper arm. It isn't much, but can sometimes be enough to make some rims feel like they brake more effectively than others, quite apart from alloy composition and sidewall treatment (i.e. machined vs. plain-extruded) and pad compound.

Best,

Dan.

Andre Jute

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Re: Rim thikness 24 or less
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2013, 06:04:44 pm »
The thickness of the material in the rims also affect the longevity of the rim, because eventually the brakes abrade the rim wall to where it becomes too thin for safety.

Just for the sake of being comprehensive: I'm not a roadie, so I have no experience of ultra-lights rims, and all the rims I've ever had were pretty stiff, but theoretically a point arrives where a rim might be so light that it could affect handling by not being stiff enough. I say "theoretically" because in practice what happens is that people reduce the spoke count to save weight and that in turn causes the wheel to pretzel before handling errors can be observed.

Andre Jute
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 07:41:41 am by Hobbes »

Etienne

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Re: Rim thikness 24 or less
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2013, 07:17:24 pm »
 :D  Ooh dear  - so kind of you and so delighted with the support of Dan;

OK some update done on my original post.  Mavic is confirmed also for V-brake.  But seems the DTSwiss is the new choice - a bit more appropriate with a SON28 for me.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 07:04:26 am by Etienne »

Danneaux

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Re: Rim thikness 24 or less
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2013, 07:44:14 pm »
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The thickness of the material in the rims also affect the longevity of the rim, because eventually the brakes abrade the rim wall to where it becomes too thin for safety.
Hi Andre!

<nods> You raise a good point I think I can answer from my "roadie-wheelbuilder" background.

What can happen (has, in fact, a number of times historically) is the rim can become so thin, the spoke nipples (and the ferrules they're seated in) pull through the rim -- even when the rim "should" be at proper tension. I once ran into a set of tubular (sew-up) rims that had too-thin walls in places at the spoke sides (an extruding error, apparently where the flow-pressure was reduced) and the spokes pulled through. I have no doubt the rim sidewalls would have eventually split at the braking track, as the rim was much thinner there as well (as I found after cutting and measuring sections during a post-mortem).

Sometimes, the rim needn't be "too thin" for this to happen. For example, one of my all-time favorite rims is the old Mavic MA-2 in a polished finish. This 700C rim has withstood countless miles of my fully-loaded tours on rough logging roads. The same rim -- except for being hard anodized and designated the MA-40 -- was known to have a very short life. Why? When the double stainless spoke ferrules were clinched into the hard-anodized rim at the factory, they caused micro-cracking of the anodic structure at the surface, creating stress risers. Once that happened (and one never knew if it had...till it did), the rims would crack through around the spoke-hole ferrules.
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theoretically a point arrives where a rim might be so light that it could affect handling by not being stiff enough. I say "theoretically" because in practice what happens is that people reduce the spoke count to save weight and that in turn causes the wheel to pretzel before handling errors can be observed.
Yehkinda. Pretzeling is largely a function of either a) uneven spoke tension or b) excessive side loads where lateral loading pushes spoke tension beyond equilibrium. Spoke count plays a huge role, but more about that in a moment. You see pretzeling far more often on dished rear wheels where the "flatter" (cassette) side is under higher tension at shallower bracing angles than the non-drive side.

I've built-up some wickedly light sewup rims (that were lighter 'cos they had no rim sidewalls, being essentially tubular themselves) that were as stiff laterally in normal riding as their box-section clincher counterparts ceteris parabis (in this case, holding constant for spoke count, crossings, spoke gage, rim width, etc).

Lateral rigidity of a completed wheel depends greatly on spoke count. If you're running 48 spokes and break one, you'd hardly notice. If you're running, say, a 16-spoke wheel, oh yeah; you'd notice a broken spoke immediately. Rolf Prima wheels are built here in Eugene, and they employ low-count, high-tension pairs of spokes in their wheels -- and rims and hubs designed to work as an integral part of the overall wheel design. So much of their success depends on materials design *and* high, even spoke tension. Remarkable stuff, but not so well-suited to touring.

In general, light rims are less forgiving of builder errors (and uneven spoke tension) than are heavy ones. A wide touring rim with lots of "meat" in the structure is one of the most forgiving rims to build, giving reasonably good results for amateur and pro alike (and hurried roadside rim replacements in torrential downpours). Still, good technique is always rewarded by producing a wheel with high, even spoke tension that will stay nice and true over the course of a long, long time and heavy use without the need to retrue frequently.

All the best,

Dan.