Author Topic: Spinning  (Read 3640 times)

Matt2matt2002

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Spinning
« on: June 04, 2013, 05:45:13 PM »
Just back from a very nice 4 day break around the Fort William Scotland UK area.

Went on the Raven with 2 rear panniers staying in a Youth Hostel (OAP wing  ;))
Managed Ben Nevis - minus Raven and a few hills as well.

Got to thinking about a comment made by Dan a few months ago re the style of cycling he does.
Mists of time may have clouded my foggy ol' brain but I think he was saying he preferred to 'spin' rather than slog up hills.
I take this to mean being in as low a gear as possible?

I tried this method - but as a novice cannot say it worked for me all the time, although i could see it's merits.

Could someone and Dan please expand on the practice principle and theory behind this method of cycling?
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Danneaux

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Re: Spinning
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2013, 06:18:50 PM »
Hi Matt!

Wonderful photo and a fabulous trip -- so glad you were able to go.

About spinning. Yep, that's me, with my hummingbird cadence.
Quote
I take this to mean being in as low a gear as possible?
Mmmyeah kinda. Mostly, it means I shift to keep my cadence where it is comfortable for me, which means high and fast with light pressure on the pedals.

In brief, I came to cycling long ago as rehab for knees injured in a car accident. I'm glad I did, 'cos it imprinted on me the need to take care of my knees.

To do so, I found a fast, smooth cadence with little pressure in low gears did the trick. It's been some 37 years since that car accident, but I have ridden this way for so long it has not only become a habit, but my default style. I tend to naturally fall into a cadence of 110-120RPM, and my cruising gear (my Gear 11 on the Rohloff) is only 55 gear-inches, with my other favorite -- Gear 12 -- being 62 gear-iinches. On my other bikes, I tend to most frequently fall between 58-62 gear-inches for nearly all my riding, shifting up or down as necessary to keep to my 110-120RPM cadence. When I drop below that, I shift down. When I feel like I'm spinning-out, I shift up.

With these gears and pedaling cadence, I tend to ride in a "speed window" of 17-21mph/27-34kph and can go pretty much all day at that when riding unladen. When touring with a heavy load on fairly level ground, I cruise along closer to 15.6mph/25kph. When I'm tired or the terrain climbs or wind comes up when unladen, my speed will also drop down to about 15.6mph/25kph, and when it is really steep and I'm winching a full touring load up very steep slopes, I tootle along at about 5mph/8kph, still withh a high cadence. When my cadence drops to about 80RPM or less, I stop and take a break to rest the ol' knees.

Some hills are so steep that with a touring load, it is a series of stops and starts as I slog onward at what seems to me to be a grinding cadence of 60RPM. It doesn't happen often, but it does sometimes, and then I rest often to give my knees a break. If I don't, I really pay for it afterward. They feel all grindy inside, like there's swarf in the lubricant, and that scares me, bringing back unhappy memories of Knee Rehab.

This has all been a factor in choosing my gearing. I much prefer low gears and generally pedal seated rather than standing, but will sometime "honk" up a steep hill by standing. Realistically, I can't pull much beyond am 82 gear-inch high, so why include them? Well, on my derailleur bikes, including a potential high in the low-90s (large ring, smallest cog) means my middle-range gearing hits the sweet spots even if I don't ever use the high. On the Rohloff, being realistic about what I can pedal at the top end allowed me to go with a 36x17. It tops out at 80 gear-inches, gives me a low of 15in, and put every single gear in-between right smack-dab where it needed to be to match my favorites on my derailleur bikes.

When I went with the 36x17 Rohloff combo, something "clicked' and it became the perfect gearing for me. I do almost all my riding in the top 7 Rohloff gears (my "high range") and then I have 7 Rohloff gears for use in wind and hills when loaded touring. It has been ideal for me, I rarely make the 7-8 shift (which on my hub seems no different than any other shift), and I avoid the slightly greater noise and vibration of the low range in most of my riding -- most of the time, I'm in Gear 11 (55in) or Gear 12 (62in) anyway.

What makes this possible for me (high cadence in low gears; "spinning") is having my feet firmly affixed to the pedals. I'm old-school and have narrow feet that fit poorly in most modern, wider cycling shoes. I've a supply of old Detto Pietro Article 74 cleated cycling shoes and use them with toe clips and straps on my SunTour Superbe Pro pedals -- I have...six? seven? pairs of these pedals, all with sealed roller- and Conrad-style deep-groove bearing combos and they just won't wear out, so I'm sticking with them for now. To change pedals on every bike would be a horrendous expense.

Because my feet are firmly attached to the pedals, I try to pedal in quadrants so my "spin" is smooth. It also allows me to rest my legs while on the bike by switching which quadrant I apply pressure to. It also allows me to pedal nicely through the dead spots, pulling back across the bottom of the stroke (as if scraping mud off my shoe sole), pulling back on the upstroke, kicking forward across the top, as well as pushing down as usual on the forward stroke.

In sharp contrast to my style ("spinning") is "mashing". Mashers typically can pull much higher gears than I possibly could, pedal mostly on the downstroke, and have lower cadences that allow pedaling without the feet needing to be attached to the pedals. Hiking boots would do nicely, and toe clips/straps or SPDs are not necessary.  Neither method is "better" than the other; it is a matter of style, of comfort/necessity, and of preference, though spinning might be a bit more efficient at higher speeds. Spinning also allows roadies to keep a reasonably high cadence to get a better "jump" on the rest of the pack when an opening for a bell-lap sprint presents itself. I come from a road-bike background, so that heavily influences my whole approach to riding (and also explains my preference for familiar drop handlebars).

I hope this helps, Matt.

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 06:22:34 PM by Danneaux »

Andybg

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Re: Spinning
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2013, 06:50:25 PM »
High cadence / low intensity cycling uses a different set of muscle fibres (slow twitch) than low cadence high intnsity (fast twitch) cycling does.

These muscles have a higher efficiency and endurance which allows you to last longer and with less pain.

Over the years my gearing has got lower and lower with higher and higher cadences. I now generally puttle along at about 120rpm which feels just nice.

However on the tandem the wife calls me monkey legs and I am banned from anything over 80rpm.

Hope this helps

Andy

Danneaux

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Re: Spinning
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2013, 06:53:12 PM »
Quote
However on the tandem the wife calls me monkey legs and I am banned from anything over 80rpm.
I've heard the exact-same words! My sister and your wife have been communicating, Andy. Just sayin'.

Best,

Dan. (...who is looking over his shoulder -- literally!)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 06:58:17 PM by Danneaux »

Andre Jute

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Re: Spinning
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2013, 07:59:42 PM »
Matt, forget the theory and the science of it. Try spinning, try mashing, forget about tying your feet to the pedals and pulling on the upstroke because that is supposedly more efficient. Then, gradually, you'll settle into what's right for you. Don't sweat it. There is no "right way", there is only what is right for you.

What is far more important than how you pedal is what you pedal. With a Rohloff hub gearbox, you should never have to get off the bike and push, so your gearing should be such that at your preferred cadence you can just manage to keep your balance in the lowest gear. Too tall or too low a top gear forces an unnatural cadence on you. When the gears are right, you'll be changing gears quite often, but your natural cadence will hardly every change.

My natural cadence, by the way, is 45-60rpm, which horrifies the roadies, and I find the 38x16 gearing so close to perfect on the 60x622 tires I prefer that when Rohloff increased the permitted torque customers may put into the gearbox, effectively allowing 36t chainrings with the 16t sprocket, I didn't even consider changing.

Also, my cadence and gears suit my social riding style, and that of my companions. We ride along chatting at 15-25kph, at the speed of the slowest in the party.

This entire "efficiency" shibboleth, of which spinning is part, came to us via road racing, and has nothing whatsoever to do with loaded touring, utility cycling, recreational cycling, social or health cycling.

Of course, on the other hand, otherwise fit spinners on the right machinery can cover impressive distances in a day, so, if covering ground is your measure of a successful tour, you should give learning to spin your best effort.

If not, don't sweat it, sink gracefully into your natural style once you've found your natural best gears, and enjoy your cycling. You don't have to prove anything to us.

Andre Jute
Boss masher

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Spinning
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2013, 08:41:04 PM »
Thanks chaps. Lots to take in here and as usual, all quality info.
I am retiring next month so plan to spend much more time on the Raven.
Here is Ben Nevis

In the local museum were pictures of a car from the 1920's that had been driven up.
Not possible now and no bikes allowed.

Btw, is there an easy way to gauge your spin rate?
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JimK

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Re: Spinning
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2013, 09:04:10 PM »
is there an easy way to gauge your spin rate?

If you have a bike computer with a display, usually there is an option to display time or day or time cycling or some such. You can just count revolutions for a minute but I usually run out of patience at 15 seconds and multiply by four.

Another option, with a speedometer display, and if you know what gear you are in, you can figure it out. I'm pretty sure that 90 rpm in my lowest gear, around 17 inches, is about 4.7 mph. I was happy to be able to stick at that speed today up most of a biggish hill!
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 09:06:44 PM by JimK »

rualexander

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Re: Spinning
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2013, 09:15:43 PM »
....
In the local museum were pictures of a car from the 1920's that had been driven up.
Not possible now and no bikes allowed.
Nothing to stop you taking a bike up Ben Nevis, perfectly legal under the Scottish Outdoor Access legislation, although you'd have to push or carry it nearly all the way. Here's a couple of videos of guys riding down from the summit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMFkHGLcK-Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ73kVSbqoo
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 09:17:22 PM by rualexander »

Danneaux

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Re: Spinning
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2013, 09:37:21 PM »
Quote
...is there an easy way to gauge your spin rate?
Or, for free (if you wear a wristwatch), count the number of spins of *one* leg in six seconds and multiply by 10. Six spins would be 60RPM. Eleven would be 110RPM.

I...once managed 300RPM (briefly) on an ergonometric analyzer (a fancy sort of stationary exercise bike) back in uni days for a friend's PhD studies in kinesiology. I've never equaled it since, but have been living on it for the past, oh, 36 years.  :D

Best,

Dan. (...who is remembering Glory Days, wondering where they went, and is very happy with 120RPM now)

Andre Jute

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Re: Spinning
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2013, 09:47:10 PM »
I've never equaled it since, but have been living on it for the past, oh, 36 years.  :D
Dan. (...who is remembering Glory Days, wondering where they went, and is very happy with 120RPM now)

Yes, I know the feeling. I used to be referred to as "the boy genius" until I was over 50. I must set aside some time to recall what I was a genius of...

Andre Jute