Two Question Thread - 110 bcd Cranks and Abus Amparo

[Slammin Sammy]

Hi guys,

Too lazy to split this into two threads. It relates to my Nomad build, which is in the parts-accumulation" phase. I have received the frame, seatpost, seat, pedals, rims, spokes, nipples and chainring thus far, but no hubs (although I was notified last night that they are in transit). I have two issues that require urgent addressing:

1) I have bought a Thorn 38T 110bcd chainring, and am looking to pair it up with an appropriate crank set in black. However, the black Thorn crank I was planning on is out of stock until September, and even the silver one is only listed at lengths from 140mm to 160mm. I need 170mm. I don't want to go silver, but if I have to, I will get the Shimano XT. I have located a reasonably priced Origin8 crank on eBay http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/290659621410?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_221wt_1161 but don't know if it will suit. Can someone more learned than me please advise?

2) I want to get a pair of Abus Amparo locks for the Missus and me, but I'm flummoxed by the three different attachment options. Can anyone advise which is the recommended solution for a Nomad and Raven frame?

Bored at work, waiting for a Rohloff and a SON to attach all of the rest of my bike bits to.

Sam

NOTE: If anyone reading this doesn't already know, SJS are SPEEDSTERS in the shipping department! Down under, we are used to being at the end of the Cobb & Co stage line, but everything I have purchased from Bridgwater has been here in less that a week. Thanks guys!

[NZPeterG]

Hi Sam
Yes the  Origin8 cranks would work Ok on your Thorn.

You can also go with a set of Middleburn RS7 cranks in black (I run a pair in silver on my Tom)



Happy Building 

Pete
 

[Danneaux]

Hi Sam,

WRT the crank, I think the Orgin8 will work, but getting it to the proper Rohloff 54mm chainline will involve finding the correct bottom bracket. The crank you're looking at on eBay appears to be Origin8's (house brand of J&B Wholesale) single-speed model listed here: http://www.origin-8.com/?page_id=91&short_code=Alloy+Crank+Arm+Set&prod_model_uid=1006&cl1=CRANK+ARMS+%26+SETS

Andre went through the BB sizing dilemma here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3898.0 You may find his journey helpful.

A possible consideration...

I haven't seen the back side of this crank's mounting spider, but if it is truly a single-speed, the chainring will only mount to the outside. I'm not sure if you'll be running a bash guard/trouser guard with your crankset, but this might be a consideration if you do. Usually, a double or triple crank is used in that case, with the chainring mounted to the inner lands and the bash guard to the outside. If you do go with the SS crankset and later wish a bash guard as well, it can -- depending on crankarm/chainring clearance --be mounted with longer chainring pegs/sleeve nuts and spacers.

As for the Abus Amparo, both Il Padrone (Pete) and JimK used the CL nylon bands in mounting Amparos to their Nomads. Jim generously included some very useful photos and measurements of his Abus Amparo 4850 here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4148.0 These should help. The basic mounting strips will work fine and have the added advantage of keeping the lock within the rear triangle.

Here's how the mounts break down:
CL - Supplied with universal attachment clips for those bikes without any factory installed mounting points - Most of these are "NKR", meaning the key can be removed when the lock is open.
LH - Simple screwing to existing frame mounting points on the seat-stay down tubes or can be installed with supplied self-drilling screws - Key cannot be removed when lock is open <-- Avoid this model for your Nomad.
SP - Mounts to the seat-stay bridge existing mounting point with supplied bracket - Key can be removed when lock is open

This photo clearly shows the difference between the mounts: http://lockitt.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/abus-amparo-4850-7002.jpg
There's actually a fourth mount available to place the ring-lock on the v-brake mounts, a bit less secure because it is outside the rear triangle.

If you go with an AXA Defender as I did, be prepared to modify the available ATB mounts to make it fit, as the Nomad's 19mm stays are too large for the stainless steel worm-drive mounting bands that are the default for that lock. I have instructions and photos for modding the AXA Defender mounts posted here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4987.0 A "key" reason I went with the Defender was to get the seatstay mounts with a key that remains in the lock when it is open so I cannot leave it at home. The key only removes when the lock is...locked.

I think the Abus Amparo 4850 has it all in terms of quick and easy mounting to the Nomad, and as for security and convenience, it is pretty much a wash, with the Amparo having the added benefit of a bit more clearance for the tire at the lock's entry. I would choose the Amparo if I wished to use tires wider than 2.0in.

You may wish to consider purchasing a plug-in cable or chain as well. They are very handy for securing the ring-locked bike to a stationary object and/or helping to secure the front wheel. Any regular cable can also be used, secured between the ring-lock's tang and the wheel rim. From a security standpoint, a ring-lock is not the most secure of locks, though it is among the most convenient. I would strongly suggest adding a U-lock for parking in overnight or in risky areas.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Dan.

[Matt2matt2002]

You may wish to consider purchasing a plug-in cable or chain as well.
Dan.

Not sure what a plug in cable is?
Surely you are not electrifying your bike security?
 

[Slammin Sammy]

Thanks as always for your prompt response, fellow Thornites!

Peter, as I've already bought the Thorn chain ring at 110bcd (5 arm), the Middleburn isn't an option. I did see it, and it's a shame, as it's a truly beautiful piece of engineering. I will leave it for later mods (of which I am sure there will be several...)!  

Dan - as usual, a very comprehensive response! I have looked at all of those links and photos, and I've got my frame staring me in the face, but still can't tell which attachment does what! (I know I should watch some videos, but I have been at work...) The little plastic tabs look frail, to be frank. I thought a frame lock would have some fantastically tricky and fail-safe way of attaching to an existing braze-on, but I guess it only needs to stay locked to the wheel, not to the frame, for it to work?

As for the plug-in cable, I haven't decided on these yet, as my n'lock (which should be here within a week) will have one too (actually two, if I use the supplied handlebar from the set). I will only use (and carry) one cable, and I'll make an assessment of the options once I have the n'lock set in my hand. AAMOF, I wonder whether the n'lock cable is compatible with the Abus lock (same bayonet)? Andre would know...

I will hold off on ordering the Abus locks until the n'lock arrives. (There will probably be another n'lock in my plans, for my wife's bike which will be ordered for pick-up at Bridgwater in late August). Once again, my plan for security is to combine the n'lock, Amparo, one cable of sufficient length, and pitlocks on virtually everything with some obsessive bike parking/guarding during our tour. I just don't want to wear the disappointment of a theft ruining the holiday. I'll be searching for insurance to cover the monetary loss, if available, but I'm not going to over-stress about the bike in friendlier surrounds.

Thanks once again.

Sam

[NZPeterG]

Thanks as always for your prompt response, fellow Thornites!

Peter, as I've already bought the Thorn chain ring at 110bcd (5 arm), the Middleburn isn't an option. I did see it, and it's a shame, as it's a truly beautiful piece of engineering. I will leave it for later mods (of which I am sure there will be several...)! 

Sam

Hi Sam
With Middleburn Cranks, You can change the Spiders so you can use them with 104/64 PCD, 94/58 PCD, or (like you after) 110/74 PCD.

The  110 PCD Spider is Available in Black and Silver, so you can mix and match.

I have 3 x Pair's and the oldest is over 8 years old and still looking like new (and it has been on my MTB's in loads of mud and over loads of rocks.

I wish you all the best with your build as it's loads of Fun 

Pete
 

[Andre Jute]

Not sure what a plug in cable is?
Surely you are not electrifying your bike security?
 

A plug-in cable is a cable that has a loop one end and at the other end a shaped pin that you plug into, usually, either a ringlock or a u-luck, in any case another kind of lock. The plug-in cable pin is released when you unlock the main lock. The plug-in cable can be used to secure other components, say another wheel, or to tie the bike to a pole, or both, if it is long enough. I have a Gazelle plug-in cable for a ringlock that looks like it could anchor the Titanic. Someone will be along presently with a URL for photos of plug-ins to ring locks, which are common. I use plug-in cables with my n'lock, which is a stem which unlocks from the steerer tube to make the bike unrideable. Photos at http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3930.msg18768#msg18768 And at http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3930.msg26347#msg26347  you can't see the cable but you can see its pin sticking out of the handlebar (the cable is attached inside the handlebar, and stored in there), and the hole in the stem into which it plugs; it is locked in by the red and green marked knob rotating over the end of the pin and the key, far side of the stem, being removed. The more common ringlocks work with plug-in cables in a similar manner, but generally with slides rather than rotating rotating knobs.

Andre Jute

[Andre Jute]

As for the plug-in cable, I haven't decided on these yet, as my n'lock (which should be here within a week) will have one too (actually two, if I use the supplied handlebar from the set). I will only use (and carry) one cable, and I'll make an assessment of the options once I have the n'lock set in my hand. AAMOF, I wonder whether the n'lock cable is compatible with the Abus lock (same bayonet)? Andre would know...

I just tried the n'lock cable pin on the two ringlocks I have on my Dutch stadssportiefs from Gazelle and Trek. It fits, locks, unlocks.

The n'lock is a light cable that will probably succumb to the bigger cable cutters. But I think that with a limply flopping handlebar, clearly a broken bike (!), and a ringlock on the back of your bike, clearly indicating that the rear wheel will have to be destroyed to get it off, you're pretty safe from any but professional thieves who know what a Thorn or a Rohloff box is -- and those will steal your bike regardless of which locks you fit. I don't have a ringlock on my current bike (I carried an Abus 54X Granit U-lock, which doubled as a 3lb hammer for dealing with impertinent Range Rovers but no longer, as effectively I replaced it with the n'lock). I normally don't even carry the longer n'lock cable, and rarely use the one in the handlebar. You'll see when you have the n'lock fitted, a big heavy bike becomes a bloody menace to your limbs if you can't steer it, and any thief who tries to wheel away my bike, starting out in a hurry, is likely be at least seriously bruised and most likely will end up with broken bones when he goes over with the bike.

I have a more capable plug-in chain in a tarpaulin sheath, a gift from Gazelle, presumably an Abus Granit chain branded for Gazelle, but the thing weighs over six pounds (!). Just for the hell of it, because I was never going to use anything that clunky, I attacked it with a small angle grinder, and was shortly out of €360 worth of poncey one-handed Mitsubishi angle grinder, burnt out from me pressing too hard to get some purchase on the curvature of the links, and the chain was virtually unmarked; I have a bigger angle grinder but decided not to risk it! If you're really going leave an expensive bike with expensive components exposed, beyond the maximum quota of Pitlocks or similar, I suggest a hefty chain, long enough to secure both wheels and tie the bike to something solid as well, with a separate hefty lock. Of course, the weight will kill you on a tour. You have to draw a line somewhere between reasonable security, and having your ride ruined by fear of losing your bike. I took the view when I collected vintage cars that a car was made to be driven and that, if you couldn't afford to replace it if you damaged it by driving it as the original owner did, you should get another hobby. That attitude has served me well in deciding what level of security/weight I want to carry on my bike. The n'lock is a cheap solution in that it actually saves a few grammes of weight over the stem I used before.

Andre Jute

[Danneaux]

Matt,

Here is a nice photo taken by JimK, showing a plug-in cable used with a ring-lock to secure a bike to a secure stationary object:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4148.msg18913#msg18913

The plug-in cable plugs into and is secuured by the ring-lock just as Andre nicely described, and prevents someone from carrying the bike away as they might do if the ring-lock secured only the rear wheel. For this reason, I suggest a U-lock in addition to the ring-lock with or without plug-in cable if you will be leaving the bike for any time in a high-risk area or overnight.

Best,

Dan. (...who thinks an electrified plug-in cable is a terrific idea. Make his high-amperage 440VAC...and wet, to increase conductivity)

[Andre Jute]

I looked into the Middleburn RS7 because it is beautiful and because it is a solid design. But I wanted to fit a Surly stainless steel chainring, and for that you need to add a spider, and then the novelty of the RS7's centre-lock system is compromised. Still, I was prepared to have a centrelock stainless steel chainring custom-cut, and actually had a guy quoting on the job. But most of all I didn't buy Middleburn because their supply is wretched and from three separate dealers I couldn't put together a working system (CRC wouldn't even give me a date for supply -- nobody had a good word for these people); the nearest complete system was in Canada! I don't have the patience to deal with jumped-up mechanics with zero management skills like that Middleburn shower.

Andre Jute

[Slammin Sammy]

I just tried the n'lock cable pin on the two ringlocks I have on my Dutch stadssportiefs from Gazelle and Trek. It fits, locks, unlocks.

Thanks, Andre! I thought it might.

The n'lock is a light cable that will probably succumb to the bigger cable cutters. But I think that with a limply flopping handlebar, clearly a broken bike (!), and a ringlock on the back of your bike, clearly indicating that the rear wheel will have to be destroyed to get it off, you're pretty safe from any but professional thieves who know what a Thorn or a Rohloff box is -- and those will steal your bike regardless of which locks you fit.

I couldn't agree more, and as you say, there is a limit to how much dead weight I'm willing to drag around just to give a thief a hard time. I think I will have done what I can, within reason, and as there will be two of us, we should be fine. I'm not a paraniod person generally, and I'm not about to start now. (And I'm NOT getting another hobby, thank you !  )

I will seriously weigh up the option of getting yet another cable (with the Amparo), but will probably go with the one I've already ordered from n'lock. As soon as the latter comes in, I'll let you know.

Sam

[Slammin Sammy]

I looked into the Middleburn RS7 because it is beautiful and because it is a solid design. But I wanted to fit a Surly stainless steel chainring, and for that you need to add a spider, and then the novelty of the RS7's centre-lock system is compromised.

I also looked into it again after Pete's post, and found that they make a square taper spider for the RS7. I also found a supplier - activesport.co.uk. I've ordered cranks, spider and chain ring bolts from them, so watch this space!

Sam

[NZPeterG]

I looked into the Middleburn RS7 because it is beautiful and because it is a solid design. But I wanted to fit a Surly stainless steel chainring, and for that you need to add a spider, and then the novelty of the RS7's centre-lock system is compromised. Still, I was prepared to have a centrelock stainless steel chainring custom-cut, and actually had a guy quoting on the job. But most of all I didn't buy Middleburn because their supply is wretched and from three separate dealers I couldn't put together a working system (CRC wouldn't even give me a date for supply -- nobody had a good word for these people); the nearest complete system was in Canada! I don't have the patience to deal with jumped-up mechanics with zero management skills like that Middleburn shower.

Andre Jute

Hi Andre
Yes you are right they can be hard to get from time to time 
I think Middleburn is a side line for them, I think they make parts for F1 race cars.
I'm looking to Sale off my 175mm long RS7's as I like running with 170mm cranks.

Note: When I Sale the cranks they will be sold with Duo Middleburn ringset! so no good with a Rohloff.

Pete
 

[Andre Jute]

I also looked into it again after Pete's post, and found that they make a square taper spider for the RS7. I also found a supplier - activesport.co.uk. I've ordered cranks, spider and chain ring bolts from them, so watch this space!

Sam

Lucky you. Those are beautiful cranks, timeless aesthetics, and everlasting strength.

Andre Jute

[Danneaux]

Hi Pete!

Don't forget the Bike BIts / Accessories for Sale board here at the Forum: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?board=17.0

eBay or local is probably more convenient for you, but it is possible some Forum members might like a crack at those 175s you'll be selling.

Best,

Dan. (...who prefers 170s like you do)