Author Topic: Feedback, re: Individual spoke reflectors?  (Read 14381 times)

Danneaux

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Feedback, re: Individual spoke reflectors?
« on: December 18, 2012, 11:12:27 pm »
Hi All!

As the dark, dreary days of winter settle in on those of us in the Northern hemisphere, I find myself looking for more ways to increase my visibility to motorists. Besides the usual lights and reflectors on bike and clothing/gear, I've been pondering the individually-attachable spoke reflectors offered by SKS, M:Part, and a number of German supply houses.

Apparently differing only in length, these all have in common light plastic extrusions covered with 3M Scotchlite retro-reflective tape. These extrusions snap onto spokes and provide reflective visibility to the wheels. Apparently, all spokes must be covered to meet EU reflector regulations and perhaps those in the UK as well. I think covering half the wheel might garner more attention ("wobble effect"), and could be worth a try where regs don't apply.

I see MartinF uses these, and so may others here on the Forum. I've been reading about them here: http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=23493.0 and they seemed a hot topic in 2009 with an apparent decline in popularity since (perhaps the novelty attending first introduction wore off? Items on great discount at Lidl have usually hit the far side of the popularity curve...).

I have a few questions before shelling out for a complete lot:

1) Do these things stay in place on the spokes without getting lost frequently?

2) Do they cause noticeable air-drag or make whizzy-whooee noises while the wheels are turning at speed? Or that horrible clicking noise of the "spoke toys" kids attach?

3) Do they get all dirty-yucky from dirt, grease, oil and rim oxides and stop reflecting to a large degree?

4) Do you have a preferred length? Some are 40mm in length, others 80mm (probably cut in two to make the 40s). The 80s have double the surface area, so better for visibility but...?

5) Do they make a noticeable difference in wheel weight?

6) Is there a difference between brands?

I run Schwalbe Dureme tires with nicely reflective sidewalls, but was appalled at how quickly the reflective tape was ground away from a friend's sidewalls while we rode The Netherlands' many sand roads. They were largely gone after just a day's churning, and I fear a similar fate for mine once on the desert playa come late Spring. I figured these might last a bit longer, rding above the nipples, inside the rim and away from direct contact with dirt, rocks, etc.

Thanks in advance for your shared thoughts and experiences.

Best,

Dan.

Rockymountain

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Re: Feedback, re: Individual spoke reflectors?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2012, 09:13:47 am »
I can't really answer any of your questions.  Whenever I pick up a new bike, the first thing I do is to remove the wheel reflectors - I have trouble with them aesthetically and I don't really think that they justify the extra (albeit small) weight. So the thought of investing in a set of individual ones is a bit alien to me.  However I, too, would be interested to know what others do.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 09:15:35 am by Rockymountain »

Danneaux

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Re: Feedback, re: Individual spoke reflectors?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2012, 03:22:11 pm »
Quote
Whenever I pick up a new bike, the first thing I do is to remove the wheel reflectors
Me too! I don't like the aesthetics, the effect on spoke tension (for ones that screw on), and the wheel imbalance of conventional reflectors. I've had some luck making small ones using a "flag" retro-reflective prism tape that wrapped around a spoke (or the cut-off barrel of a Bic pen, slit so it would slip over the spoke), but kinda hoped these individual ones might be a solution that would work reasonably well while addressing the problems that have me running from the conventional kind.

Best,

Dan

jags

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Re: Feedback, re: Individual spoke reflectors?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2012, 03:27:39 pm »
i would not put them on my bike (wheels) to be totally honest bit of a gimmic i reckon.
i have enough light and reflective cloths to be seen at night .

Danneaux

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Re: Feedback, re: Individual spoke reflectors?
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2012, 03:36:52 pm »
Quote
i would not put them on my bike (wheels) to be totally honest...
<nods> Yeah, I understand, jags. The thing about wheel reflectors is one generally has to be perpendicular to car headlights for them to work, and if they haven't seen you before then...its too late!

I guess I was hoping these little "sticks" might also reflect from the quarter-view of oncoming and closing car headlights, and might provide the "wobbling/strobing" effect I used to get from putting tape on the rim center...but with a bit better oblique viewing.

As an aside, I like the idea of these reflective stretchy-lycra overgloves: http://www.conspicuity.us/armsewstick.html ...and... http://www.gloglov.com/SportGG.html Might be nice for signaling turns at night. Waving a hand clad in one of these is bound to help catch attention.

Best,

Dan. (...for whom Hope -- in the form of daytime-inconspicuous nighttime-conspicuity -- springs eternal)

Andybg

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Re: Feedback, re: Individual spoke reflectors?
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2012, 03:40:25 pm »
I am very fortunate here that the amount of road traffic here is so low that "any" illumination or reflective material is enough to stand out but having ridden for many years in cities I would say in those circumstances there is no such thing as standing out too much.

I think visibility from the side is one of the nost critical (being noticed at junctions) and here is a product that is cheap, free to run and extremely light.

I think it deserves the Dan test.

Andy

Danneaux

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Re: Feedback, re: Individual spoke reflectors?
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2012, 04:17:15 pm »
Quote
I think it deserves the Dan test.

Oh, no...not "the Dan test"!! :o :o :o

 :D ;)

Sigh. I fear the inevitable is coming, though I have had dismal luck with some recent purchases...."Dan tests" are getting expendysive!

All the best,

Dan. (..."Testing"..."Testing"..."Testing"...)

energyman

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Re: Feedback, re: Individual spoke reflectors?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2012, 06:14:47 pm »
I prefer those dangling coloured strings from the ends of handle bars. :D  They are seen by everyone and the reaction is either "cute" or "saddo" BUT they are very noticible which is the whole point.  
However those spoke things are also noticible - I've seen them in the dark when driving.
The real question is "do I still have street cred if I put them on"
Happy Christmas Dan !

If only our village paper delivery boys & girls would think that wearing reflectives and having lights on their bikes is cool I would not worry so much about their safety !  After all their generation is the one that will keep the economy going to pay our pensions.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 06:24:53 pm by energyman »

Tartalo

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Re: Feedback, re: Individual spoke reflectors?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2012, 06:16:56 pm »
Hi Dan,

I have all my family's bikes fitted with them ( and my three bikes).
They work very well and visible for nearly all the angles.
Answers to your questions ( see below)
1)Do these things stay in place on the spokes without getting lost frequently?
Yes, they fit very securely. When manipulating the bike ( fitting into the car rack with other bikes) sometimes they may partially come out; but it is a firm fit.
After each ride, quick inspection of the sticks can identify any "runner".

2) Do they cause noticeable air-drag or make whizzy-whooee noises while the wheels are turning at speed? Or that horrible clicking noise of the "spoke toys" kids attach?
I love "silent" cycling ( I am obssesive in this subject: ready to disassemble a bike to find "that noise" ) . I haven't noticed any noise originated by the sticks.
3) Do they get all dirty-yucky from dirt, grease, oil and rim oxides and stop reflecting to a large degree?
I have been using them for three years now. Sometimes you can see some darker shades ( not sure they are oil stains) but they keep pretty well.
4) Do you have a preferred length? Some are 40mm in length, others 80mm (probably cut in two to make the 40s). The 80s have double the surface area, so better for visibility but...?
I have the 8mm ones. Once you go for them, go for the full enchilada!
5) Do they make a noticeable difference in wheel weight?
I would say no. The whole packet of 40s is very light.
6) Is there a difference between brands?
I know the 3M and the ones marketed by Aldi ( supermarket) own brand .
I have the 3M ones; I have seen the Aldi ones : tempted to buy them but never did. My very personal impression was that the reflective paint didn't look evenly applied ( again, just my impression)

martinf

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Re: Feedback, re: Individual spoke reflectors?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2012, 06:24:59 pm »

1) Do these things stay in place on the spokes without getting lost frequently?

2) Do they cause noticeable air-drag or make whizzy-whooee noises while the wheels are turning at speed? Or that horrible clicking noise of the "spoke toys" kids attach?

3) Do they get all dirty-yucky from dirt, grease, oil and rim oxides and stop reflecting to a large degree?

4) Do you have a preferred length? Some are 40mm in length, others 80mm (probably cut in two to make the 40s). The 80s have double the surface area, so better for visibility but...?

5) Do they make a noticeable difference in wheel weight?

6) Is there a difference between brands?

I've had them (Sekuclips) on the bike I used for my Spanish trip for about 15 months and about 6,000 kms.

1) Yes. I used a small piece of insulating tape on the thin spokes (1.5 mm ? 1.8 mm ?) on the front wheel, as they would have been a bit loose otherwise. Not lost a single Sekuclip so far, despite a fair amount of use on  bumpy tracks.

2) I don’t notice any drag or noise.

3) They do get dirty, especially on the rear wheel from drivetrain muck, but I had derailleur gears at the time so messier. I clean them from time to time. After cleaning they still reflect reasonably well, but of course not as good as when new.

I've since fitted Sekuclips to 2 other bikes. The new Thorn has them on both wheels and has a Chainglider so they should stay cleaner. My old 5-speed only on the front, because I fitted the Sekuclips before I got the Chainglider

I find tyre reflectors on bikes ridden in wet weather get very dull quite quickly with rim brake debris, plus drivetrain muck on the rear. In my opinion, the Sekuclips  stay cleaner for longer.

4) As they are very light I think 80 mm length is probably best, this is what was available locally

5) Not for me.

6) Don’t know, only Sekuclip is easy to get locally.

_____________________________________

Spoke (or tyre) reflectors are mandatory here in France. I reckon ordinary wheel reflectors are fairly useless as only really visible from the side, so would be seen too late to avoid collision in most circumstances.

In my opinion, the only reflectors that really matter are the ones facing straight back. I’m not a great believer in the benefit of wheel reflectors, but, as I have to fit them to stay legal, I prefer Sekuclips. Being cylindrical, they are visible from quite wide angles and they don't fall off/cause wheel balance issues like some of the ordinary wheel reflectors.

Its raining quite heavily here, so photo taken in a damp and cluttered garage, lit from the flash (none of the bike lights are in operation). The Sekuclips on the blue bike are the ones that have been used for 15 months - they are much more noticeable than the tyre reflector on the red bike. The orange-red stripes on the mudflap don't show up all that well at the photo angle, but they are very visible from directly behind. The reflector on the mudguard mounted B&M Seculight still shows up well in the photo, but isn't very visible once the viewing angle is increased.

The front reflector on the Brompton shows up quite well, but is almost directly in line with the camera, in practice I don't think it is much use, its only there to comply with regulations.

You can also just make out the reflective tyre logo and wheel reflector on the Brompton front wheel. This reflector is "Moonline", which was available a few years ago. It is a similar concept to the Sekuclips, a cylindrical tube coated with reflective material, but fitted as a continuous length woven between the spokes and running parallel to the rim to form a complete circle. In my opinion, better than ordinary wheel reflectors, but not as simple and less visible than Sekuclips


____________________________

There is another small advantage to Sekuclips. At the moment they are unusual, so they should get noticed more than the standard type
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 06:52:52 pm by martinf »

Andre Jute

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Re: Feedback, re: Individual spoke reflectors?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2012, 06:30:32 pm »
I use the standard BUMM wheel reflectors, a curved rectangle, amber, double sided, an opposed clip to each side which hold the reflector by tension between two spokes. I dispose mine at the two quarters of the wheel perpendicular to the line through the Presta and the computer's signal magnet for the best balance. I don't care about the tension on the spokes; if you wheel is so badly built that so little weight and tension upsets it, it is far, far too dangerous to ride.

Aesthetics are personal, but I'm an artist and a critic who's never been known to pull a punch, and they don't bother me. As for their functionality, I'd give up the reflecting band around the tyre before I give up those four amber rotating reflectors. If you've ever watched from a car as a bicycle with them fitted ride across an intersection, you would know why I am so strongly in favour of them.

As for the reflectors that clip on to individual spokes, I looked into them, and also into those that are electrically illuminated, right up to sending a scrolling message ("My bike and I weigh a lot. Your car will be very expensively damaged. And my lawyers are piranhas.") to motorists to stay clear, and decided that any and all of them are superfluous to requirements when one has the effective, modest, unobtrusive amber pair per wheel described above.

Matter of taste, really, I suppose. But I consider the BUMM pair per wheel the acceptable fuctional minimum for me. They're also the best value for money item in the BUMM catalogue.

Andre Jute
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 10:42:31 pm by Hobbes »

JimK

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Re: Feedback, re: Individual spoke reflectors?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2012, 09:46:25 pm »
Over the summer I was driving at dusk through a rather busy town and came upon a few young cyclists wearing dark clothing. The only reflectors they had were on the pedals, but those really helped. That got me on the quest for pedal reflectors.

I went over to my local LBS, just around the corner. The owner has a big tub full of junk parts, which he dumped out on the gravel driveway for easier searching. He helped me find a couple old press-in plastic pedal reflectors. I found another couple, but in pulling them out of the pedals they were in, I snapped off one of the press-in fittings. Oops! The owner tossed me a plastic bag with some snap-on wheel reflectors and said "You can't be too visible!" I hadn't been thinking about those but then I figured, yeah, probably he is right! So I put them on my bike too.

I tried gluing on that one pedal reflector whose fitting I had snapped. That held for a month or so, and then another reflector came off too. Probably that was on the same crazy ride/push where I destroyed the connector for my rear light wiring! Anyway, I bought some screw-on pedal reflectors which I hope hold up better!

JimK

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Re: Feedback, re: Individual spoke reflectors?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2012, 09:58:26 pm »
Here is a photo of my bike down in the basement with just the camera flash. I didn't take care to orient those spoke reflectors but anyway I can't see them at all!


Andre Jute

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Re: Feedback, re: Individual spoke reflectors?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2012, 10:43:59 pm »
I just saw Martin's photograph, and went down with my camera to discover what my bike reflects rearwards. I've changed my mind. I think I'll look into the Sekuclips again. Thanks for raising it, Dan.

The Sekuclips on the blue bike are the ones that have been used for 15 months - they are much more noticeable than the tyre reflector on the red bike.

You can say that again. Thanks for the photo, Martin. Nothing like someone else with actual experience to help you make up your mind.

Andre Jute

Danneaux

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Re: Feedback, re: Individual spoke reflectors?
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2012, 01:13:40 am »
Hi All!

This...is an outstanding response far beyond what I hoped for; thanks so very much! What a nice illustration of our collective power in wisdom and knowledge present on this Forum -- Yay!

I think I will indeed spring for a complete set of the 80mm Scotchlite spoke reflectors and give it a go. The care you all took to answer each of my questions really shows, and Martin's photo was truly worth a thousand words, showing just the sort of oblique visibility I was hoping for (Jim...your photo reflects [sorry] my own experience with conventional spoke reflectors from this angle of approach, typical for traffic closing from the rear): Invisibility. Tartalo's got these on multiple bike, and Martin has lengthy experience with them in conditions similar to mine; I'm sold.

Quote
I prefer those dangling coloured strings from the ends of handle bars.
Chris, it may help your street cred to know these are actually popular with some outlaw motorcycle gangs here on this side of the pond. They fit them as a sort of open dare so they can ehm, "respond" to any untoward comments. It must work, as *no* one ever says a disparaging word and, as you've found, they're surely noticeable. Seriously. I'm uh, taking a closer look at you already, Chris: You've got those dangling coloured strings on the ends of your 'bars. Uh-huh. DEFINITELY not "cute" or "saddo". Instead: Respect. Word! 8) The spoke things can't possibly hurt your street cred. Happy Christmas to you, too; thanks!
Quote
...I looked into them, and also into those that are electrically illuminated, right up to sending a scrolling message ("My bike and I weigh a lot. Your car will be very expensively damaged. And my lawyers are piranhas.")
Snerk! Andre, I was drinking water when I read this, and have not yet recovered from the results of so much laughter! Man, can you ever write.

Thanks again, everyone named and unnamed; I greatly appreciate your efforts.

Best,

Dan. (...Glad I spoke about it; time to stop reflecting and buy!)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 03:50:21 am by Danneaux »