Author Topic: hebie chainglider off road ??  (Read 16761 times)

Danneaux

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Re: hebie chainglider off road ??
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2013, 05:29:01 PM »
Hi All!

After three months' back-and-forth email correspondence, I now have the (final) definitive answer from Hebie regarding use of their 39T Chainglider on 36T chainrings:
Quote
The remark from my side concerning the use/compatibility  of 36th  and 37th with a 38th chainglider is a mistake!

Use only a chainglider with a gearing that has the same number of teeth as is in the code number of the chainglider.

I hpe the misunderstanding is clear now.
So: Hebie make clear their Chainglider is intended for and only works with the chainrings it is designated for. This means you cannot use a 38T Chainglider with a 36T chainring.  Still no word on whether Hebie intends to produce a 36T model. For my size 590M Nomad, Hebie advise the Standard Chainglider is too short to work properly and will result in excessive friction in operation. They advise the Extra-Long front piece, after trimming the excess at the hub end.

I hope this helps.

Best,

Dan.

il padrone

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Re: hebie chainglider off road ??
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2013, 10:55:00 PM »
38t ring with a larger sprocket to get same gear ??

Danneaux

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Re: hebie chainglider off road ??
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2013, 11:50:44 PM »
Quote
38t ring with a larger sprocket to get same gear ??
Real good thought, Pete, and one I explored with Hebie myself.

38x17 gearing doesn't quite match my 36x17 combo, and a 38x19 (using Thorn's 19T cog) just misses the mark as well. A 40x19 has ratios and range virtually identical to my 36x18, but that misses the available Chainglider front-section offerings! A 38x18 is nearly identical to my 36x17...but an 18T cog is unavailable and...

The Rohloff-specific rear section for the Chainglider is usable with 15T, 16T, and 17T sprockets...but not 18T or 19T.

Arrrgh!

I followed every avenue for a Chainglider compatible with my 36x17 combo, but the Official Word is "No" at present unless Hebie decide to produce a 36T-specific front section. Maybe this is something Hebie will explore in time now Rohloff has approved lower ratios; 36x17 seems to be gaining popularity among the world-touring crowd, and I'm getting a lot of inquiries about Chaingliders for that combo, so hopefully it will be soon. I'll keep my present 36x17 gearing and hope for the best.

I was really hoping to get a Chainglider before my June-July tour, as I will be heading over the mountain passes. Oregon's Cascades are semi-dormant volcanoes (still some seismic activity), and vast beds of lava remain from Mt. Mazama's eruption ~10,000 years ago. This lava is crushed and spread on the roads throughout the Winter to provide traction for car and truck tires in snow and ice. Come Spring, the snow melts leaving a lot of finely crushed lava behind (see attached traffic-cam photo). This gets kicked up on the bike chain and makes a terrifically efficient grinding compound. My long mudguards and flaps help greatly, but I really wanted a Chainglider to keep the red stuff out.

I notice Hesling has come up with a similar chaincase for Dutch bike maker Idworx. I presume it is a bespoke model intended for their offerings only, but I've got an email ready to fire off their way to see if they have some sort of floating chaincase available.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 06:39:52 AM by Danneaux »

il padrone

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Re: hebie chainglider off road ??
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2013, 12:39:11 AM »
Maybe email Andy Blance about the sprocket that he was using in his Chile tour - p. 8 appears to show his bike with a rather large sprocket.

Your other option is to compromise on the gearing and just run a 38x17.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 12:40:44 AM by il padrone »

revelo

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Re: hebie chainglider off road probably not a good idea
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2013, 07:37:23 PM »
Why do people say off road when referring to dirt roads? Off-paved-road or off-highway maybe.

Anyway, my experience is the Hebie chainglider doesn't work too well to seal off dust, based a recent 80 day, 1929 mile tour of the Lassen national forest area of Northern California in the western United States. The dust here is volcanic dust but all dust is really the same, just finely ground and dry rock that gets blown about the wind and gets into everything. Once enough dust gets into the chainglider, it starts to cause drag. You still have to remove the chainglider to clean the chain and then reinstall, which is something of a nuisance.

I was running the 36T chainglider with a 38T chainring, and Hebie evidently says that's a no-no. But I don't think a proper 36T chainglider would have kept dust out much better. The 38T chainglider definitely will not last long with used with a 36T chainring, as i discovered. I ended up junking mine after 3 weeks and 642 miles because it was started to fall apart due to abrasion by the chainwheel (due to the poor fit).

More about my recent experiences on this thread: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4977

il padrone

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Re: hebie chainglider off road ??
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2013, 12:51:43 PM »
What type of lube were you using revelo?

I ask because I currently have minimal problems with dust and gunge adherence to my chain. I have been using a lube called Purple Extreme and have found it is excellent quality, giving long-mileage between re-application and the chain stays very dry to touch. I plan to use a Hebie chainglider soon and believe that with little lube to attract dust there should be less of a problem.

Time will tell.



BTW, agree with you on the 'off-road' comments. A dirt road is not off-road, a mountain single-track or old farm access trail is 'off the road'.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 12:54:46 PM by il padrone »

Danneaux

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Re: hebie chainglider off road ??
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2013, 05:02:21 PM »
Quote
A dirt road is not off-road, a mountain single-track or old farm access trail is 'off the road'.
Agreed. Examples from 2010 below, done using 700x32C road slicks, derailleurs, ancient Detto Pietro road cleats, and good technique. Considerably easier on the Nomad with 26x2.0 Duremes.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 05:11:34 PM by Danneaux »

revelo

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Re: hebie chainglider off road ??
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2013, 05:47:28 PM »
What type of lube were you using revelo?
I ask because I currently have minimal problems with dust and gunge adherence to my chain. I have been using a lube called Purple Extreme and have found it is excellent quality, giving long-mileage between re-application and the chain stays very dry to touch. I plan to use a Hebie chainglider soon and believe that with little lube to attract dust there should be less of a problem.

White Lightning Epic Ride, which is silicone based. It's a light lube and actually doesn't attract a huge amount of dust, however the dust does eventually dry out the chain (dust is a powerful degreaser) and so I have to apply new lube every week or so. To do that I have to remove the chainglider, which is a nuisance. And the more times you open and shut the chainglider, the flimsier it becomes. And each time you reattach the thing, you have to be really careful to adjust it properly so it doesn't cause excessive drag. Probably a 38T chainwheel with the 38T chainglider wouldn't have failed so rapidly, but based on my field experiences, I don't think this chainglider is of any value for my type of riding (dirt roads mostly).

One problem I had in the past was that I didn't have a good system for cleaning the chain in the field. So when the chain got dry due to dust, I just applied new lube on top of the old lube plus dust, which made a mess. I wasn't concerned about abrasion, just keeping the chain from getting so dry that it squeaked. This mess then got on my pants. But now that I clean the chain before applying new lube, there is no mess. Here is a typical photo of the chain after a day or so of riding (with or without chainglider, since the chainglider really doesn't help much, as noted):



I've since gotten really good at cleaning the chain, using a toothbrush dipped into a 125ml nalgene bottle of citrus degreaser. If the chain is only as dirty as in the photo above, I can clean it with maybe 15ml of degreaser plus some water afterwards, which means I can go about 8 weeks between filling the bottle again. I no longer use any shop towels during the chain cleaning procedure, which are a nuisance to dig out of my panniers, since they have to be kept in plastic to keep them dry. So the chain cleaning procedure is just a couple of minutes, typically right before I go into the store in town to resupply. That gives the chain a chance to dry out while I'm shopping and preparing my sandwiches. Afterwards, I apply the silicone lube to the chain.

This chain cleaning, lube procedure might seem obvious, but it has taken me years to perfect it, and is one of the biggest issues I face with my type of touring.

moodymac

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Re: hebie chainglider off road ??
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2013, 07:10:04 PM »
Revelo,

Glad to see you back, just read your last tour, good stuff.

Do you think that because of your 36 tooth chain ring and the necessity of have to go without a front fender and mud flap may have cause a lot of dirt to be thrown into the cavity of the chain guard and causing the problems?  Thus, leading to flexability  and durability issues?  If this gap were not there, do you think that enough dirt would have not gotten in to do much good?  I ask because if the thing worked in that environment, it would solve a lot of time spent on maintenance.  (Wishfull thinking).

Tom

revelo

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Re: hebie chainglider off road ??
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2013, 07:25:43 PM »
Have you ever heard the expression "eat someone's dust", meaning their car (or horse and wagon, back in the old days) races ahead of you and leaves a cloud of dust in their wake, which then gets in your mouth.. That sort of dust gets into everything. Dust on my face, dust in the folders of the panniers, dust on the tops of all my water bottles and bladders. A mudguard wouldn't help and anyway is unacceptable because it can get jammed with wet mud.

I have this feeling that many of the people who think the chainglider will work just don't have much experience with dust. Not much dust outdoors in the British Isles because it is so moist there. But check inside your house, behind some furniture let's say. Lo and behold! A layer of dust on everything. Where did that come from? Outdoors in the American west, dust is everywhere. If dust falls on dry surfaces (like the panniers), it falls off as fast it fall on, so never accumulates deeply. The chainglider, on the other hand, has pockets for the dust the accumulate, and the rest of the transmission system has grease which doesn't allow the dust to fall off.

The main value of the chainglider, to me, is keeping my pants clean, but I'm no longer worried about that since I no longer let the chain get very dirty. I don't think the chainglider reduces maintenance time and effort, but on the contrary increases it due to the hassle of removing and reinstalling the chainglider to get at the chain and clean and relube it properly. But then I tour in dusty areas. Things might be different in northern Europe.

moodymac

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Re: hebie chainglider off road ??
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2013, 07:37:53 PM »
Revelo,

Got ya.  Been there, ate that!  I should have paid more attention to one of Andre's post when he had his doubts on wheather the chainglider would work in Dan,s inviro..


Tom

Andre Jute

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Re: hebie chainglider off road ??
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2013, 12:37:52 AM »
Got ya.  Been there, ate that!  I should have paid more attention to one of Andre's post when he had his doubts on wheather the chainglider would work in Dan,s inviro..

Mmm. Hebie Chaingliders are made in several specific sizes matched to particular chainrings of 38, 42 and 44 teeth at the front, and to particular hub gearboxes at the back, again with particular tooth counts. If used as intended, they seal well.

Revelo fitted a Chainglider intended for one size of chainring to an entirely wrong-size chainring. In his installation the seals on the Chainglider get no chance to work. The photographs he published before his tour showed there are huge holes for the dust to pour into the Chainglider. The lube he adds, far from helping, disastrously combines with the dust to form a grinding paste. In such an installation, who would be surprised that the Chainglider doesn't work, and is abraded?

We don't know whether on Revelo's roads a properly fitted Chainglider will keep the dust out. I have substantial experience (admittedly in trucks rather than on bikes) on dirt roads in Africa, Australia and South America, and have been on dirt roads in the States and Asia as well. I suspect that a proper Chainglider installation on Revelo's bike will a) keep the worst of the dust off the chain, b) reduce maintenance to some longer period than daily, c) be cleaner and d) not abrade the Chainglider so fast or perhaps at all. That is not to say that the Chainglider on Revelo's roads will be immune to abrasion as appears to be the case on my roads, where the inside of my Chainglider after several thousand kilometres is unmarked. I suspect that over a period of years the grinding paste of dust and oil will grind away the Chainglider if used in constant heavy dust or sand. But if the Chainglider saves daily maintenance, so what? For around 35 Euro you can consider it a consumable component and buy a new one every second or third time you buy tires or a chain and feel no pain.

***

The argument in Dan's case was entirely different. The Chainglider is pretty closely fitted, so closely in fact that the whole thing doesn't rattle like a machinegun when you pedal only because it is made from a flexible, sound-deadening material, which works brilliantly, as you can conclude for yourself from the absence of complaints about noise. But that close fit, out on Dan's playa, could be a disadvantage. Dan has given a frightening description of this dust a) getting everywhere and b) turning to concrete in the presence of water. On the playa it apparently rains heavily every day. Because of the tight fit of the Chainglider, even a little concrete in it could immobilize the chain, and with it the bike. Now, I don't think this will happen, because the close fit of the Chainglider also keeps out water, but caution suggests Dan conducts a more controlled experiment in a less life-threatening milieu before he makes so radical a change to equipment proven in previous expeditions to work.

So. On Dan's playa, the consideration isn't a grinding paste of dust and oil possibly wearing away the Chainglider (of which there is zero evidence I know of on any properly fitted Chainglider -- at this point it's all speculation), but about concrete making the bike inoperable in a hostile environment.

***

What it comes down to, Tom, is that everyone with a properly fitted Chainglider recommends it. The only caveats -- more like cavils really -- arise from a Chainglider so improperly fitted as to obviate its design purpose -- and from Dan's insane desire for self-flagellation in an impossible desert.

If you're going to fit the thing properly, if you aren't going to ride it in dust that turns to concrete, go ahead and fit it. You won't be sorry.

moodymac

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Re: hebie chainglider off road ??
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2013, 02:31:56 AM »
Andre,

Alas, I have nothing a chainglider will fit.  If I did it would be the first thing installed.  Can't wait until el padrone fits his.  That will certainly give it a good test in dust, dirt and sand.

I am not sure, but... I may resemble a middle aged sybarite's sitzplatz (only older).  So lets be careful least you hurt some feelings (in case I do).

By the way, on the chains that you do lube what do you use?  I think I am going to try Purple Extreme.  If it works in el padrone's  environment, it should do well in Oklahoma.


Tom

(Who sees nothing wrong with sitting outside in a nice shady spot on a thrice sprung brooks).

Andre Jute

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Re: hebie chainglider off road ??
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2013, 04:17:58 AM »
By the way, on the chains that you do lube what do you use?  I think I am going to try Purple Extreme.  If it works in el padrone's  environment, it should do well in Oklahoma.

In the long ago and far away, when I had an open chain, I used sewing machine oil and wiped the surplus from the outside of the chain. Cleanliness was more important to me than efficiency or longevity.

After I got fed up with having my back wrecked by the incompetence of Peugeot designers and discovered Dutch city bikes, I used to use White Lightning Dry Wax inside those large clanky Dutch chain cases; it was only a partial success as the wax made little furry balls in the bottom of the chain cases, and needed to be reapplied every couple of hundred miles, and did nothing to extend the atrocious chain life I then suffered.

Then I got a Rohloff gearbox and discovered the accompanying Oil of Rohloff, which is cheap oil at a fiver a bottle, which lasts forever as you use only a couple of drops at pretty long intervals if you use chain cases. It's relatively clean stuff, though not as clean as the Dry Wax. Unfortunately I can't tell you whether the Oil of Rohloff increased chain life, because at the same time I was introduced to KMC's exemplary Z and X series chains, which doubled my chain life.

At the moment I'm conducting a zero-extra-lube experiment, running a KMC X8 chain in a Chainglider without any lube beyond the factory lube. At over 2000km with no adverse effects, the experiment is already a substantial success. I need to reach 4605km on one chain to declare lubing your chain unnecessary when you fit a Chainglider, at least in my non-challenging conditions.

il padrone

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Re: hebie chainglider off road ??
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2013, 06:15:14 AM »
My chain with Purple Extreme after ~3 weeks, 1200kms in Central Australia.




In this time it had one reapplication of PE. The chain ran smoothly as you'll notice the dust is only on the outside, not adhering to the contact surfaces. I went for about 2 weeks before it needed reapplication. BTW, I never use any degreaser on the chain now, just wipe it down with a cloth then apply the lube. This has preserved the chain's original factory lube as much as possible.

Dust certainly does get everywhere..... almost. A bit of simple cover can work wonders to keep the dust off. I'm thinking a chainglider that does not have lots of lube flicking about will be less susceptible to the dust.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 06:22:25 AM by il padrone »