Author Topic: Second Hand Thorn Values  (Read 8057 times)

Andybg

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Second Hand Thorn Values
« on: October 23, 2012, 07:16:39 pm »
Being Scottish with a Yorkshire heratige, I am not adverse to a second hand bargain. Bearing this in mind I have three Thorn bikes which I have bought second hand. Being a bit of a ebay peruser too, I have a view of the following second hand values of Thorns.

Almost immediately they are built they seem to loose about 20% in value.
As soon as they leave the shop another 10% drops off the value

Then over the next 3-4 years they seem to drop down to a minimum of 50% of there current purchase price and then they just seem to sit there not depreciating at all.

Interested to hear other peoples views on this.

Andy

jags

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Re: Second Hand Thorn Values
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2012, 07:31:05 pm »
Andy i sold my Look kx light with full  Dura ace groupset  ksyrium ssl wheels new mitchlin pro race 3 tires  fizik saddle beauti full carbon bike with not a mark on it pristine.(why oh why did i sell you baby) :'( :'(
cant exactly remember the full cost when i first bought it the frame alone cost me 1300euro and i got a deal on that i reckon 2500 sold it for 1200 :-[
ok put me up against the wall and shoot me.

you never get your money back on cars/ bikes,i was selling my new guitar Yamaha LL16 £650 i paid there on sale in the uk for £600 i was selling it for 600 euro a guy offered me 400 DAN does not allow bad langauge on the forum  ;D ;D

so if you buy a top end thorn then never sell it you will loose your nuts simples. ;)

Danneaux

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Re: Second Hand Thorn Values
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2012, 08:33:25 pm »
Hi Andy!

I think your analysis spot-on matches what I have seen from several years of looking at eBay offerings and SJSC's own discounted prices for shop demonstrators and used bikes.

Unlike you, I've never bought a used Thorn (which may be owned by more maintenance-conscious people) and I have had terrible luck with used bikes I've carefully surveyed with an eye toward buying. It seems the ones I find most often offer only a usable frame as a way to collect a whole bikeful of dead parts. Here, it seems even expensive bikes are purchased, then ridden into the ground without the least bit of maintenance. There have been exceptions -- the 1968 Schwinn Sting-Ray I got as a kid, the Birdy Folder, and the tandem. I think the key there was each was essentially new at the time of my (re)purchase. The Raleigh Gran Sports was a total disaster, but I have only myself to blame for that one, purchasing it outdoors in a heavy down pour (when I couldn't examine it properly) and when I had been awake for 63 hours straight and was sleep-deprived, even for me.

<nods> Agreed with jags...if you get a nice bike, it is hard to get full return on the original cost. The real return on investment comes if you keep it and ride the daylights out of it, enjoying every moment. That's a priceless return on investment. There's some good bargains to be had if you look carefully, and especially if the bike has been well-maintained and/or has had little actual use.

All the best,

Dan. (Everyone rides a used bike...)
Dan.

geocycle

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Re: Second Hand Thorn Values
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2012, 09:26:39 pm »
But what happens when the current purchase price rises.  My 2006 raven tour was £1200, now they are £2099, so excluding all the upgrades I've made what is my bike worth?
 

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Second Hand Thorn Values
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2012, 06:36:37 am »
Good subject this. I have been watching Thorns on UK eBay for some months and many appear not to have sold. Are they over priced or is it the poor economy and folk tightening their belts? Who knows?
I guess they're worth whatever folks can pay.
And then there is always the debate about the extra dosh for a new one giving you peace of mind and a bit more of a "glow"  ;)
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Andybg

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Re: Second Hand Thorn Values
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2012, 07:27:43 am »
@geocycle

It seems to be that the current price rather than the original price that seems to be the determining factor. I want to stress that my observations are only based on what the market appears willing to pay and is not a way of trying to say what someones bike is worth.

My old battered and bruised Nomad probably has a market value of a few hundred pounds but a personal value of being priceless.

Where these findings have helped me is that I know I can buy a used Thorn, run it for a year to see how it suits me and if it doesnt I can move it on for little or no loss.

Once I have decided what suits me best I may be tempted to a new Thorn for life.

Danneaux

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Re: Second Hand Thorn Values
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2012, 07:52:19 am »
Continuing the pleasant conversation over a cup of virtual coffee and a pasty, having met-up after a ride to the corner cafe'...
Quote
But what happens [to the value of an older model] when the current purchase price rises
This is a really good question, geo'! Over on this side of the pond, inflation does slightly raise the price of older bikes...but that increase in value is offset by the aging of components and drivetrains. Currently buyers generally don't place as much value on older equipment, figuring manufacturers are improving components yearly so older stuff can't be as good (I disagree) and 7-speed gets passed over for 9- or 10-speed in the buyer's value rankings.

Sadly, I've found component upgrades largely fail to increase the resale value by much...because they have also aged. Much the same holds true in the used-car market, where custom wheels and plus-size tires with minus-profiles increase value only fractionally.

Quote
And then there is always the debate about the extra dosh for a new one giving you peace of mind and a bit more of a "glow
There's a certain cache about "buying new" and a bike -- like anything else -- is truly "new" only once and only for the original buyer. I sometimes come across the same people on my 109-mile regular loop, and I notice they are often riding new bikes each year. I spoke to a gentleman early last summer about his, and he said, "Oh, this is my 'new' bike, the one you remember was last summer's". Since he buys a bike annually, I guess "new" lasts about a summer, each year. Though it sounds cliché, everything really is new only briefly, and only for the first buyer. As soon as one takes possession, the item becomes "used" to anyone else and...sometimes, even to oneself. I buy bikes rarely, so often find myself referring to one that is 20 years old as my "new" bike 'cos it is the "last" bike I bought. That's all changed with the recent Thorn ownership. The Nomad is my "new" bike, without doubt, and will likely remain so for the next 20 or years.

And, yes, there is peace of mind to buying new. There is warranty coverage unavailable otherwise, and for a large purchase, this added security is worth something to a lot of folks.
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Are they over priced or is it the poor economy and folk tightening their belts?
Probably a bit of both in these times, but the prices are still enough that I think buyers go through a "cost-plus" analysis and do valence-weighting, where they juggle the increment between used and new, and make the decision based on the incremental value rather than the absolute cost. They figure, "I'm paying x if I get this...but by adding a bit more, I get new". They don't look at the total so much as the increment.

And, too, there is something special about "New" -- It looks factory-fresh, and you get to put the first scratch on it and remember the occasion! You build a shared history together, and that counts for something when you're talking about a working tool that facilitates journeys. "People" (meaning also me) even anthropomorphize (bestow human characteristics on) their bikes, talking about "When we were in..." and "I remember that fall we took..." and it isn't a royal We but an inclusive one. Some folks (also me) actually name their bikes. Flipping that on its head, there's a bias against used for many people, one perpetuated by original sellers for commercial gain. The very word -- "Used" -- means the items has had use, placed on it by someone else; "New" is fresh and unblemished. Much of it is perception, rather than reality. I grew up hearing the phrase, "Don't buy somebody else's problems!". A car dealership across the river from me doesn't sell used cars...it sells "pre-owned ones". When I asked a salesman why, he shrugged his shoulders and said, "'Just sounds better". Doesn't to me, but then I've bought a lot of used things (generally not bikes) that worked out well, and after one "new" dog, every following pet was a "used cat", all equally beloved.
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I guess they're worth whatever folks can pay.
Prices in the used market may well be a better refection of the actual value of an item. To a certain, the market has reached equilibrium, and values are more closely determined by what people are willing to pay, no longer influenced by hype and advertising that often result in inflated prices when new products are first introduced.

All the best,

Dan. (...Would "experienced" be a better word for "used"?)

JWestland

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Re: Second Hand Thorn Values
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2012, 10:45:08 am »
My two e-bay uk cents:

It seems bikes over a certain start price (eg starting over £600) are harder to sell. This is a general e-bay problem and starting at 0.99p with a reserve is a better tactic. Not being willing to ship also hampers sales no matter how good the bike is.

But the Thorn XTC (which I have via e-bay) always still sells, even though it's a 10 years old bike! Mine was £460, and only because the bike shop hadn't a clue what make/model it was (I figured it out with help of guys here) and it needed a freehub body as listed on ad. That is the cheapest I have seen, any other ones the last 6 months have been more expensive, with a paint near mint/lugged one selling for £780 (!) via SJS. I was lusting after it  ;D

Certain other "classic" Thorns also seem to sell well also, but it could be the handmade in England that works well for them, as there is a trend for this.
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geocycle

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Re: Second Hand Thorn Values
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2012, 11:44:28 am »
@geocycle

It seems to be that the current price rather than the original price that seems to be the determining factor. I want to stress that my observations are only based on what the market appears willing to pay and is not a way of trying to say what someones bike is worth.

My old battered and bruised Nomad probably has a market value of a few hundred pounds but a personal value of being priceless.

Where these findings have helped me is that I know I can buy a used Thorn, run it for a year to see how it suits me and if it doesnt I can move it on for little or no loss.

Once I have decided what suits me best I may be tempted to a new Thorn for life.

All very encouraging, so my raven has done 16,000 miles for maybe £100-200!  Brilliant value and some justification of the high purchase price.  Maybe I can afford that mercury after all.....!
 

Swislon

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Re: Second Hand Thorn Values
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2012, 12:14:56 pm »
I have bought and sold a few Used bikes over the years. I don't have any of them left as there was always something not quite right for me and found buying new was the only way I could get what i wanted . Otherwise I would need to spend money on a used bike which kind of defeats the object unless you can get it for a "good" price, then it might be worth it.
Some makes such as Moultons seem to hold their value very well and I have bought 2 of those used and resold them 2 years after for no loss.
On the otherhand I am trying to sell my Mountain Bike at the moment and have had no "bites" at all. Too many around I think and retailers are off loading 2012 stock at the moment at big discounts. So the right price, ease of selling and the Brand/model of bike are inter linked.

I agree with Andy's assessment as it seems it is the current price that seems to be the determining factor.
Thorns and Rohloffs are more thin on the ground in the used market so ought to sell easily at the "right" price. My RST is 6 years old and if I were to sell it for 50%
of current price I would be happy and I think the new owner would also be happy. (especially as it suffered no damage in my recent Off, only superficial on bar end and Barley bag. I think i protected it with my hip!).

Steve

Andybg

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Re: Second Hand Thorn Values
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2012, 12:23:51 pm »
Glad to hear the bike is ok Steve.

I remember when I small after coming off my bike always running over to check the bike before I checked myself. My mother always used to say dont worry about the bike which I couldn't understand at that age. I thought I'll mend all by myself but if the bike is broken it will cost money to fix.

As I have got older I've nearly changed my outlook - honestly

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Second Hand Thorn Values
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2012, 01:28:21 pm »
Thanks Dan
Nice to be quoted so many times in your answer.
It has occurred to me re the pricing, if only a few thorns come up over six months or so it can be harder to get a best price guestimate.
If I want an ipod 3rd generation 8mb - then when I look on ebay I can see a dozen or more.
All I need to worry about is screen condition and postage.
When I find a thorn - the spec can be so different from the last one I saw 4 months ago.

Good observation about it only being new once.

Matt (I will buy one one day - honest)
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StuntPilot

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Re: Second Hand Thorn Values
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2012, 07:07:31 pm »
Interesting topic Andy.

Having obtained 'Torla', my Thorn Raven Tour, via eBay, it is indeed my 'new' bike.

http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3916.0

Luckily when it arrived it's condition from SJS was just like a new bike (low milage and after a thorough clean up), I convinced myself that it was new! (It is a 2009 model and I paid the 50% as observed!). With further personalisation, it is even 'newer'!

The fact that anything second-hand is inferior is fast becoming the ways of the old world in my opinion. Perhaps as the economy continues to stumble along the bottom, the value of second hand may increase due to older items often being better made, with better quality materials and the craftsmanship of old.

I agree on your second hand valuation observations Andy. And I am quite happy with that! If you buy a second hand car, the value drops annually. If you buy a new car, they say that as soon as it is driven off the forecourt, some say the value drops 25%.

In relation to Brooks saddles, I have been following a few on eBay, and am impressed by the value that many old saddles are achieving. In years ahead maybe our trusty Thorn mounts will still maintain that 50% second hand price. If so, I would be very happy.

In the meantime, each Thorn ride and tour with that assured reliability will add value to the owner. Its not all about the money. To me 'Torla' is already priceless in my eye.

Andybg

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Re: Second Hand Thorn Values
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2012, 07:23:18 pm »
Really nice looking bike stuntpilot. I think the only issue with second hand is that you are taking a gamble on what has happened to it in its past and it sounds like you have fallen lucky. I think it is a shame they have sort of discontinued the Tour you have. With the downgrading of the load capability the Nomad is now the only heavy duty expedition bike left in the line up.

Best of luck with Torla and her new life with you

Andy

Philb

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Re: Second Hand Thorn Values
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2012, 03:33:21 am »
Intersesting topic.

 Thorns are very expensive bikes, most worth more than my car! Ebay is not a great way to estimate the value of something because there are few people who can afford such specialist equipment and I would have thought the market for these bikes was fairly limmited and values can vary widly depending on getting more than one interested buyer .